What's your oponion about Hell?

[elias]

Hi there,

A question has been wiggling in my mind for a while and it was that does an entity named Hell exist?

Some of the new age thinkers claim that there is no such thing as Hell.
But can this claim be justified by the existence of a Just God?

How can those who do harm others, suppress technologies, spread war, spread ignorance be no different from those who live the opposite in the afterlife? People who help the poor, give love to their neighbors, spread what they know surely aren't even comparable with evil people.

I have concluded that there indeed must be a place where these criminals get what they deserve (like Hell). Indeed they will be suffering in there own deeds also.

Anyone has any opinion?

[sterlingpg]

Interesting Q!

Hi there,

A question has been wiggling in my mind for a while and it was that does an entity named Hell exist?

Some of the new age thinkers claim that there is no such thing as Hell.
But can this claim be justified by the existence of a Just God?

How can those who do harm others, suppress technologies, spread war, spread ignorance be no different from those who live the opposite in the afterlife? People who help the poor, give love to their neighbors, spread what they know surely aren't even comparable with evil people.

I have concluded that there indeed must be a place where these criminals get what they deserve (like Hell). Indeed they will be suffering in there own deeds also.

Anyone has any opinion?

Thank you for the thought-stimulating question, Elias.

I have a view that is completely outside of duality. Duality is the belief system that there is good/evil, God/Devil etc.

I do not believe there is a 'Just' God. I do not believe there is anything like 'god' as described in the Bible and other works. There is only 'That which cannot be named nor truly described' which equals 'God', in my universe.

All evidences of that which is described as 'evil' exists by gods allowance, otherwise we handicap god into believing 'It' has things beyond its control or direction. If such things were not created somehow from that which has created all things and is the true Source, then where did they come from? A power or source greater or stronger or outside of God?

In my universe, the 'Earth arena' is a safe 'playground' whereby no one is truly harmed or can be killed. We are eternal spirit beings directly of the same 'stuff' as god, and in fact we are all 'god-incarnate' or god-experienced. Those things of duality that many judge as evil are incarnated beings that have forgotten who they really are and mostly do things that which serves only themselves. Those that do what many think are 'good' things for others have remembered more of Who They Really Are and thus live lives more in service to others.

In my universe, there is no true suffering, no evil, no good or bad or judgement from the Source for to do so is to judge itself and what it has created. There is a huge amount more to this - it would take hours and days to flesh out the basis for the very brief description above, however, the greatest liberation I experienced out of duality and the frustrations of believing there was good and bad, came from reading Conversations With God by Neale Walsh. Though those were just words on a page and they were claimed to be from 'god', it does not matter to me - the intense body-reaction to the ideas in myself showed they were true for me.

The vast body of evidence for these ideas come from the Other Side, from various channeled works like Abraham and many others; the evidence from Technical Remote Viewing and other sources that beyond this apparent reality there is no time or space, and the liberation felt through the deepest fibers of my being in acceptance for what IS, and letting ALL of it be 'ok', and moving into a place of having preferences but not black and white judgement is all the reason I need to keep on with my own presonal 'opinion' Also, knowledge and knowingness of the current best model of our universe being holographic as well as the power behind the ideas shared in Busting Loose from the Money Game (the title is hilariously deceptive lol) and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle have also contributed to this liberation.

Quantum Physics is showing us what Eastern Mysticism has talked about for thousands of years. The material universe is created and projected by Consciousness affecting the Field. All that we think is so 'real' including suffering, pain, buildings, plants, PEOPLE, are not what they appear to be.

This has brought me to see the divinity within and the subsequent knowingness of the infinite in Joy, Power, Love, Wisdom! Expressing these becomes a natural state of being that requires no creed, church, or peer pressure to share them with anyone and everyone regardless of who they are.

Thank you for allowing this space to share this...

In Gratitude,

tephen

[cffevans]

Expanding earth

Hi Elias,

I'm from a slightly different train of belief. Recently, I came across a youtube video titled "expanding earth". In it the presenter, Neil Adams, tells us there has been a conspiracy in the science community. Not a big surprise there. But this one deals with continental drift. He says the geological evidence supports an enlarging earth in which a smaller earlier earth had no bodies of water and as the earth expanded, the land masses broke up into the current continents separated by newly created bodies of water.

Mr Adams gives no explanation as to the origin of the water to fill these newly formed areas. But as a believer in the Bible I have an explanation. You see my Bible tells me of a world wide flood. It tells me that mankind and animalkind lived in an expance called firmament. In the first book of the Bible, Genesis (beginnings), in chapter 1, it tells of the firmament dividing the waters below from the waters above. So there was water under the land and water over the air or a vapor canopy.

Later on in chapter 6 we find that men did not follow God's ways and God calls upon Noah to build an ark (huge boat) so that he can preserve a selection of his creation while he destroys the remaining creatures. Many say this is just a story, yet every culture has their own version of the world wide flood. Prior to this flood there was no rain on the face of the earth. God brought a mist up from the ground to water the earth. Genesis 2:6

After Noah had finished the ark, he and his wife, his three sons and their wives and the selection of animals went into the ark. In chapter 7 verse 11 the Bible tells us that the fountains of the deep were broken up and the windows of heaven were opened. Now here is a source of water to fill the streams, rivers, lakes and oceans and we were told about it in chapter 1.

You say, "But where did the mass come from to expand the earth?" Well in the book of Psalms chapter 9 verse 17 it says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all nations that forget God." You say, "What's that got to do with an expanding earth?" Over in the book of Isaiah, chapter 5 verse 11-14 it says, "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning. that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine enflame them! And the harp, and the viol(stringed instrument), the tabret(drum), and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they reguard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

If you have any doubt as to the location of hell, we find in the book of Jonah chapter 2 verse 2 Jonah says, "I cried by reason of my affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." Then in verse 6 he says, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." So hell is at the bottoms of the mountains.

It is therefore my belief that the earth expanded because hell expanded; hell being below the foundations of the mountains. You see God's flood killed off the wicked people who would not give him glory, nor consider all his wonderous works. And hell found it necessary to expand to accommodate those wicked souls.

So, yes, I believe hell exists exactly as described in the Bible and more proof to substantiate that position exists today than ever before.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

[sterlingpg]

I forgot to add lol

I had meant to comment on what I now consider 'hell' and 'sin'.

Hell to me is the place one is in when one believes they are separate from God.

Sin is virtually the same thing to me - believing one to be separate from god, needing 'forgiveness' from outside oneself. Even so, such a 'sin' is not judged by god, and in the end, we cannot not get to where we're going, which when we're there, we realize we always were there, and had nowhere to go LOL.

Also, I have come to appreciate that in my universe, hell, demons etc, are virtual realities we create with consciousness. Over thousands of years, and millions of people's belief in them, they have become very powerful morphic fields. If we live in one of those realities, then the effects from them can seem very real, until we learn how to step out of such realities and join or create a different one.

At least that is what I believe this week - it might change next week, stay tuned!

In Peace,

tephen

[elias]

There is something strange in Abraham Hicks' words

Stephen and Mark,

Thank you both for your comprehensive replies. Stephen, I completely accept your idea about God which is everywhere and is a Creator of Infinite Intelligence and Love, Which cannot be imagined, and also I like your idea about no duality in good or evilness, there is only good and love. "EVIL IS THE LACK" and does not exist. It is the lack of existence which is termed as evil. An example would be DARKNESS is the ABSENCE of LIGHT, and there is no such existence as darkness because it is the lack of existence. Ok?

But something in Abraham's teachings disturbs me very much, although I completely agree his idea of creation and love and law of attraction. That thing is the saying that killing people is not really a bad thing because it causes their soul get free!!! But he also says that everything you do must make you feel better! What normal person feels good when he kills somebody on purpose to harm him/her?! Only those who have become so evil (LACK of Love) may feel good(?) when killing somebody.
Of course also I mention that the actual offense one does is to his connection with his true self. Because I don't think that our true self agrees with the notion of preventing someone experiencing this life(i.e killing somebody).

You certainly know that some sick people seek pleasure when torturing somebody! (labeled as SADISM) Then should these SICK people do this because it makes them feel good?! But they certainly make some people feel bad!! Would Abraham suggest these people to continue doing these tortures because they feel Good? I don't think so, But what they actually meant?

I don't want to judge too fast but there seems to be something wrong in Abraham's teachings. It suggests that no matter a government drops bombs on some people or some terrorists because they are attracting that. I believe in the law of attraction to some degree but, I maybe there is a more complete model for describing the world events.

As an end note, One of the most common forms of deception is putting an evil idea beside tons of good and loving information, then one would grasp that bit of evil idea without knowing that! I mean that should we say "The poor deserves to be poor because they have attracted that"? I think that there is another side to this law of attraction which we must take into consideration.

I want to present a paradox or maybe a paradox here about Abraham's teachings:

Abraham talks about Steven Spielberg and says that see what he has created by using his Imagination. He says that you are creators and you create everything by your mind. So he means (or they mean) that every imagination creates.
He also claims that Hell and Judgment day does not exist and is a fictional imaginary thing.

Of course I present this paradox for clarification, not rejection or offense.

So what can someone conclude from these sayings?
=> because so many people have imagined it throughout the history and had fear of entering it, AND also each imagination is a creation THEN Hell should Exist. Maybe according to Abraham's teachings only those who fear entering Hell enter Hell?!!? But Abraham does not state so and tells that after death EVERYONE is Infinite and THE SAME.

No one can deny the beauty of Abraham's teachings because most of it is based on the teachings of the past teachers (ADAM, DAVID, JOSEPH, JACOB, NOAH, THE real ABRAHAM, MOSES, JESUS, MOHAMMAD and many more) but a small portion of it seems that does not add up.

Two scenarios CAN exist in every channeling, and I want to address them here, but this does not necessarily mean anything. Just for extending our level of thought, as to not accept anything offered by anyone without thinking:

Number one:
If we believe in an entity or a creature named DEVIL or SATAN which has sworn in the name of God to lead men astray, then could this be a new trick offered by this entity? Devil once was a close servant of God but refusing to submission made him an evil entity. What the so called Abraham teaches could be Devil's trick. Especially when he assigns the name of Abraham to the teachings which is the founding father of the three major religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This makes so much sense. According to this analogy we are not creators and we must connect to the ONE and ONLY creator of the universe. In other words we must connect to the source and HE is the creator and creates for us upon our wanting. I think that this being CAN refuse to create for us, because HE is the all powerful, but never does because he is the all giving and merciful. One must consider himself nothing in front of this creator to reach the utmost degrees of LOVE and UNITY. Betraying in front of this Creator can lead to severe pain after death. Of course this also means being our true self and not resisting in the connection to the source.

Number two:
Abraham's teachings, tells us that don't bother yourselves with the poor people or people who some evil men have bombed them, because the law of attraction has yielded them so. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, we as human beings cannot FEEL GOOD if this happens, but Abraham suggests no matter what just feel good and don't do anything to help them, don't help the poor. Abraham does not tell us directly not to help the poor but one unconsciously will develop such an attitude towards the poor (Your mind will think that they deserve that and You need not help them) Or you will not protest and make any trouble for the government against the war and bombing. The government SURELY wants no one to protest and has a definite motivation to spread this type of disinformation.
So, I think that the EVIL GOVERNMENT can by using MIND CONTROL (MKULTRA) make some people to think that they are receiving information from a WISE eternal being, not knowing that they are suffering from MPD(Multiple Personality Disorder).
To Note that According to my MKULTRA studies, women are much easily controlled and can become a MIND CONTROLLED SLAVE without knowing so.

Eager to see different opinions ...

God Bless,

Elias

[elias]

Noah in the Quran

Hi Mark,

I am too interested in what really happened in Noah's time.
I have been digging up many thoughts and religions lately, and I want to add Quran's comment on Noah's ark complementing the Bible's.

And it was revealed to Noah: That none of your people will believe except those who have already believed, therefore do not grieve at what they do.

And make the ark before Our eyes and (according to) Our revelation, and do not speak to Me in respect of those who are unjust; surely they shall be drowned.

And he began to make the ark; and whenever the chiefs from among his people passed by him they laughed at him. He said: If you laugh at us, surely we too laugh at you as you laugh (at us).

So shall you know who it is on whom will come a chastisement which will disgrace him, and on whom will lasting chastisement come down.

Until when Our command came and water came forth from the valley, We said: Carry in it two of all things, a pair, and your own family-- except those against whom the word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And there believed not with him but a few.

And he said: Embark in it, in the name of God be its sailing and its anchoring; most surely my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Noah called out to his son, and he was aloof: O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers.

He said: I will betake myself for refuge to a mountain that shall protect me from the water. Noah said: There is no protector today from God's punishment but He Who has mercy; and a wave intervened between them, so he was of the drowned.

And it was said: O earth, swallow down your water, and O cloud, clear away; and the water was made to abate and the affair was decided, and the ark rested on the Judi, and it was said: Away with the unjust people.

And Noah cried out to his Lord and said: My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges.

He said: O Noah! surely he is not of your family; surely he is (the doer of) other than good deeds, therefore ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge; surely I admonish you lest you may be of the ignorant

He said: My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from asking Thee that of which I have no knowledge; and if Thou do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I should be of the losers.

It was said: O Noah! descend with peace from Us and blessings on you and on the people from among those who are with you, and there shall be nations whom We will afford provisions, then a painful punishment from Us shall afflict them.

These are announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you, you did not know them-- (neither) you nor your people-- before this; therefore be patient; surely the end is for those who guard (against evil).


Kindest Regards,

Elias

[cffevans]

Thanks

Thanks Elias,

It is good to see that the Bible and the Quran are so close in their rendition of Noah's history.

In 2 Peter 2:5 our Bible calls Noah "a preacher of righteousness." And yet we find no converts for him except his wife, his three sons and their wives. But God supplied a preacher to warn the wicked world of the coming destruction. For we read in 2 Peter 3:9 "The LORD is not slack concerning his promise(of judgement), as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Still just as there was a falling away from the truth in Noah's day; there is a falling away in this day. In Matthew 24:37-39, "But as the days of Noe(Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man(Jesus) be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So Christ shall come and all shall be guilty before him who refuse to submitt to him in this life; But those that recieve him shall be blessed. 2Tim4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, butunto all them that love his appearing."

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

[CaptainScat]

great thread! wonderful dialogue, thank you all

here is good read about the holographic universe model, title is a little deceptive kinda like Busting Loose from the Money Game
http://au.geocities.com/psyberplasm/ch6.html

"Hell is other people" - Jean-Paul Sartre

[cffevans]

geometry 101

Howdee Captain,

I read up until the shear wave section. Then, I confess, it was way over my head. I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the connection to the thread. Are you offering another explanation of the expanding earth?


Please elaborate.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

[elias]

Yes Jesus will return indeed

Thanks Elias,

It is good to see that the Bible and the Quran are so close in their rendition of Noah's history.

In 2 Peter 2:5 our Bible calls Noah "a preacher of righteousness." And yet we find no converts for him except his wife, his three sons and their wives. But God supplied a preacher to warn the wicked world of the coming destruction. For we read in 2 Peter 3:9 "The LORD is not slack concerning his promise(of judgement), as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Still just as there was a falling away from the truth in Noah's day; there is a falling away in this day. In Matthew 24:37-39, "But as the days of Noe(Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man(Jesus) be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So Christ shall come and all shall be guilty before him who refuse to submitt to him in this life; But those that recieve him shall be blessed. 2Tim4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, butunto all them that love his appearing."

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

Yes,

I agree that he will return and there is hope,

Regards,

[CaptainScat]

Howdee Captain,

I read up until the shear wave section. Then, I confess, it was way over my head. I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the connection to the thread. Are you offering another explanation of the expanding earth?


Please elaborate.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

the holographic universe model link is in response to sterlingpg's mention of the holographic universe model in the first response to this thread. the info is kinda mixed in with another topic, but please try reading more than 1/5th of it you might see a connection then.

my opinion to the question posed by the thread it self was summarized by the Jean-Paul Sartre quote.

[future pather]

In Jewish tradition, there is no permanent hell.

The New Testament does not go on at length about the subject (as one might expect due to what many of its "followers" preach).

Not to make light of this subject, but I think the hell many of us have gone through on Earth is enough


XO Jessica

[future pather]

Here's a bit more on Jewish tradition. (I studied with this Chabad a little) :



What is Heaven and Hell?

Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the "Thirteen Principles" of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different "heaven" and "hell" than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.

After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has "extracted" from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.

This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense--in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality--a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8--depending on how we played the music of our lives.

When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a "judgment and accounting" of its earthly life.9 But the Heavenly Court only does the "accounting" part; the "judgment" part--that only the soul itself can do.10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself--only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul's experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden"--i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom ("Gehenna" or "Purgatory").

The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom--the soul's pain in facing the truth of its life--cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and "bask in the Divine radiance" emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.

What Happens After We Die? - Questions


XO Jessica

[cffevans]

Hell in New Testament

Jessica writes,

In Jewish tradition, there is no permanent hell.

The New Testament does not go on at length about the subject (as one might expect due to what many of its "followers" preach).

Not to make light of this subject, but I think the hell many of us have gone through on Earth is enough


XO Jessica

Jessica,

In my King James New Testament, in Mark 9:43 & 44 Jesus says,"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He then goes on to say the same thing concerning "thy foot" and then the same again about "thine eye".

Jesus was born of a Jewish woman named Mary. He seems to be making a statement about the permanence of the situation as he repeats the conditions three times. And if Jesus, at the very least, the central character of the New Testament speaks of hell in this way, it might just be important.

The word hell appears in the New Testament 23 times. It is one of the main themes repeating from Matthew to Revelation.

Just to set the record straight.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

[cffevans]

Apology

the holographic universe model link is in response to sterlingpg's mention of the holographic universe model in the first response to this thread. the info is kinda mixed in with another topic, but please try reading more than 1/5th of it you might see a connection then.

my opinion to the question posed by the thread it self was summarized by the Jean-Paul Sartre quote.

Hey Captain,
Just want to say sorry if I offended. As I said before, that stuff is way over my head and after reading the section on shear waves about five times, I thought I'd go back to the source of the link and see if there was any more use in trying to understand. I'll go back and try to read to the end.
Thanks,
Mark Evans