Bible

[Samemf]

Also one which was an interesting read was

"THE GOSPEL according to barnabas"
who was the in fact the blind companion of jesus , this gospel was thrown out and abolished at the council of bishops in 300ad .

but managed to get on by people hiding it apparently ..

it has an interesting set of events inregards to the crusifiction that will blow your socks off and almost , Yes Almost identical to the koranic version of jesus's last days on earth .

from my readings of scriptures thus far ,

Angels are created from light ..
Jinns/spririts/devils which are all the samething but good ones are called jinns or spirits and bad ones are the soldiers of satan are created from fire

and mankind was created from clay / water etc.. all our internals and makeup can be found in the earth .

but angels have no free will , theu cannot disobey god and always without question follow his command,,

however manking and jinns/devils have freewill , so therefore we have the choice to do as we like , ie -- we can choose the path to heaven or hell ... hmmmm

interesting


ps im not preaching , dont get me wrong pls , just some interesting things I thought id share


Sam

[muttdogg]

Vengeful god

Hey Al,
As always good to hear your point of view. Here we go again, agreeing on a point of view. Sheesh, people are gonna talk. I do definitely agree with you that there were so many behind the iron cutain after the fall, came out and proclaimed their faith in Christianity. I grew up in an area where a lot of the people were Eastern European. Ever tried potato wine? Whew!
My point is, according to your response to my query, you believe in a god that has a strict code that must be followed, or hell is your destination. The vengeful G-D. Where is the all-loving-G-D that Yeshua taught? Or the pauline version of Christ's life?Ah,there is where you may justify the vengence, violence to another. Now I recall. What paul says is in direct contradiction of Yeshua, bur they exist side by side so as to give lattitude those on high.
So, if a baby is born, but not baptised, the damnation is there. Only to repeat itself by the brethren that accept that which is holy to their religion, but not to the masses that only feign interruptance of their daily lives, so as to continue their existence. Sounds like a vengeful god to me. Baby is born with the most hateful sin in all of Christianity . Damned to hell, cause some religion believes their god is better. Would you say that about your own child?
Dan

[muttdogg]

Angels

Hey Sam,
Glad you joined this post. Hope you continue posting.
im nt sr wtahtghhyr syin? I assume you are talking about the difference between the Yeshua from the bible, and the Yeshua you know.
Dan

[Samemf]

erm in my opinion

we are alll born innocent , we do not bear the sins of our fathers , nor our fathers bear our sins , the sinner shall bear his own and must repent and and ask forgivness and never to return to his sinful ways , and the matter of forgiveness is with god alone , the nost grashous the most merciful .

I read that in mathew btw so theres another contradiction in regards us being born into sins , born sinners ? na thats flawed in my opinion , I cannot for the life of me beleive a child comming out of his mothers woom in nothing but completely innocent .


Sam

[Ingram]

Condemnation of the infant is rather a Calvinist view, no? According to Al, eg: Bible, one has to actually sin in order to be subject to hell and/or accept forgiveness for same.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Samemf.

Wow, you have gotten so much bad information it's hard to know where to start.

The last names of any of the Apostles is not mentioned, but it is irrelevant. Their message is what is important. The 1st twelve apostles were hand picked by Jesus. This is recorded in Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:13-19, and Luke 6:12-16 and other places.
His travels with them are well told of in the 4 Gospels and first part of Acts. Who did the people you talked with think were with Him at The Last Supper?

You need to separate the history of the Catholic church from the history of the true Christian church. The Catholic church came from a group of people who tried to merge Jesus's teaching of salvation through faith and grace with the rituals of the Jewish priesthood as it had existed for centuries. This led to many disputes among them. Constantine I called for and convened the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. It was in Nicea, Bythyinia( which is now the city of Iznik, Turkey), not in Jerusalem.He sent out about 1800 invitations. Only about 300 were accepted. The Trinity was only one topic they addressed. They finally got it sorted out correctly.

The true Christian churches did not attend the council. They didn't need to as they had not strayed from what Jesus taught.The Doctrine of the Trinity was well known to them as Jesus mentioned it's members many times.

Actually the New Testament is the word of God, especially since Jesus was God in the flesh and was declared to be the Living Word of God, especially in the 1st. Chapter of John, among other places. So when He spoke they were hearing the word of The Living God which is what they wrote down. II Peter declares all scripture to be given by of God. That includes Old and New Testament. Of course it contains the life of Jesus, but the important part is His message and how it was spread through the journeys of The Apostles and their disciples. It was written by Christians, to Christians, and for Christians by Godly inspired authors to explain this new religion in detail and to unite the Jewish and Gentile Christians, among other things.

As to the swine I think you have Mohammad and Jesus mixed up. Jesus did not say you can't eat pork. Mohammed did and The Old Testament did, but that was due to diseases the swine carried and also with no refrigeration it spoiled quickly. These were dietary laws given to keep the people healthy.
The 2000 swine you mention were inhabited by devils which Jesus allowed to go from the body of the maniac of Gedara into the swine. They drove the swine so crazy they ran off a cliff and died.

As to Jesus's miracles He never made a bird of clay and flew it. I think the passage you are referring to is John 5:19-23, but it is so pharaphrased it's hard to tell. If that's it Jesus was saying He did as His Father wanted Him to do and He had the power to do it. Remember, He said "I and The Father are one"(John 10:30) The overall meaning of His message was that He did what God wanted Him to do, not what any son of man wanted Him to do, including His own earthly body.

Jesus was not a prophet, He was God in the flesh. He referred to God as His Father because in the flesh he had no earthly father . Remember, Mary was a virgin and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit of God. Some are skeptical of this but remember, the penalty for an unmarried woman getting pregnant was death by stoning. The Jews had stoned many before Mary, but not her. Also, she was not "married" to Joseph at that point, she was his "espoused" wife meaning they were engaged and he would take care of her until they were married. This was a common practice at that time.

As to what he meant by there is none good but God You mis-understand. What He was saying was "Why are you calling me God? He is the only one who is perfect and Holy and good so you must believe I am God."

You'll have to tell me where you got the bit about He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles or Samaritans as it is not in the Bible.Not only that but its ludicrous. Not only were Luke and Paul Gentiles, but in Mark 16:15 Jesus says" Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believith on me and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." In Acts 1: 8 He says "But ye shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

If you wish more verses showing he claimed to be God just ask. Ask for what Mqhammed claims I could care less. He was not a prophet of God, he was a warrior who forced his religious views on people at sword point as his followers still do. His one god(Allah) was his personal idol in the neutral ground of a tent in Mecca. After he defeated his last major enemy he went to the tent, threw everyone else's idol out and proclaimed his god "the one". He personally in one town lopped off the heads of several hundred people who would not convert to his religion after given the choice of converting or dying. Stuff like that has been suppressed out of fear, but it and a lot more is recorded history. The big difference between Mohammad and Jesus is Jesus was God. HE proved it by His miracles, His fulfillment of prophesy, His life, His death and His resurrection. He never killed anyone in this life and laid down His life for you without resisting. He said that was his mission on earth.

In Matthew 16:13-16 Jesus asks some of his disciples "Whom do men say that I the Son of Man, am"? Peters answer in vs. 16"Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God." Also He uses the Son of Man 80 times in the New Testament to Identify Himself as being in the race of man,
just as Son of David is his distinctly Jewish name and Son of God is His devine name.

The Lord's Prayer goes thusly;"Our Fatherwhich art in

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Samemf.

I hit something which sent my post before I finished.
The lords prayer goes"Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil; for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen. As you say he was teaching us to pray. Other than that I don't know what your point was.

As I said before, I think you need to get a good bible(King James) and re-read it before you try the Koran.

Til next time,

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Condemnation of the infant is rather a Calvinist view, no? According to Al, eg: Bible, one has to actually sin in order to be subject to hell and/or accept forgiveness for same.

Ingram-

Wrong. Read chapter 5 of the book of Romans, it's terrific. Verse 12 says "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men, for that all have sinned."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Adams sin has past on to all mankind. As I said that inherited sin, along with any you personally commit, has to be forgiven thru Jesus sacrifice.

Infants are considered in a state of grace until they are old enough to reason. If they die before that they go to Heaven as a just God does not condemn them for something they are incapable of understanding.


Al

[Samemf]

Hi ANTIQUER,

Thanks for the reply

erm heres some of the quotes from the bible i was refering too


Matt.10

[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matt.15
24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

inheriting our fathers sins i think not

Ezek.18

20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


I personally do not beleive jesus the son of mary was nothing more than A mighty prohet of god and a sign unto mankind

Num.23
[19] God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

where jesus is referred as the son of man many times

jesus's birth was miraculous without the intervention of sperm , this is a miricale

but dont forget johns birth is also a miricale as zakariah was like 100 years old and his mother 90 way past menapause , but God answered his prayers and said you will have a son , zakariya said how my back is dry and my wife is baren ( i would also want to know how in his position)

And dont forget Adam had no mother or father , His is a better miricale than jesus's birth .


in conclusion I think that the bible has been corrupted and changed over the centuries and we need to be careful

I mean the king james version of the bible is in engish and there was no english language until 1066AD when the normans invaded the saxons .
Therefore the english bible cannot be anything like what any of the prophets spoke or understood , as it did not exist in their time .

erm inregards to the trinity where does this exist in the bible ,
the whole nature of the 3=1 or 1+1+1=1 to me is fundamentally flawed

who sits , who stands , who makes judment , does the father sit above and son and the holy ghost sit side by side ?

This in my opinion is madeup entirly by man and is a contradiction to jesus teaching , the lord thy god is one .
which was the univeral message of all the prophets of God .

Zech.14
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


in the next verses and many simular to it I doubt jesus is refering to himslef as god

Matt.4
[7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
[10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Id be interested to find a verse personally in the bible that says "I am god worship me "



Inregards to reading the koran , I am finding it fascinating read thus far .

iregards to the word ALLAH, it is GOD in english the same god of adam , moses , abraham , and jesus , and all of us , I think the Ilah in other languages , god in english .

Sam
peace

[wpage]

Your quote...

I made some notes along with your post...
W
quotes from the bible i was refering too


Matt.10

[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Dont see your point in these statements...

Matt.15
24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

inheriting our fathers sins i think not

He is speaking of the New Testament or new law for the Jews here. What are you trying to say;...?

Ezek.18

20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


I personally do not beleive jesus the son of mary was nothing more than A mighty prohet of god and a sign unto mankind

It is unclear to me why this verse speaks this to you. The book and chapter refer to much more....

Num.23
[19] God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

where jesus is referred as the son of man many times

jesus's birth was miraculous without the intervention of sperm , this is a miricale

but dont forget johns birth is also a miricale as zakariah was like 100 years old and his mother 90 way past menapause , but God answered his prayers and said you will have a son , zakariya said how my back is dry and my wife is baren ( i would also want to know how in his position)

And dont forget Adam had no mother or father , His is a better miricale than jesus's birth .

???Adam and Eve were a creation like the rest of the 7 day event.From Genesis..

in conclusion I think that the bible has been corrupted and changed over the centuries and we need to be careful.

Your conclusion is something you are entitled to. However the basis for it is flawed. At least in this thread. You may need to study further to increase your understanding.

Part of the mystery of Jesus Christ is that he is both God and man. Born of a Woman named Mary at the same time the son of God...

I mean the king james version of the bible is in engish and there was no english language until 1066AD when the normans invaded the saxons .
Therefore the english bible cannot be anything like what any of the prophets spoke or understood , as it did not exist in their time .

This is wrong. The King James Version was commissioned by the King and translated by the top Greek, Hebrew, Roman translators at the time to the Enlish of the time.

erm inregards to the trinity where does this exist in the bible ,
the whole nature of the 3=1 or 1+1+1=1 to me is fundamentally flawed

Read the new testament Book of John for insight.

who sits , who stands , who makes judment , does the father sit above and son and the holy ghost sit side by side ?

It all in the book. Try reading it completely start in the New Testament with Book of John

This in my opinion is madeup entirly by man and is a contradiction to jesus teaching , the lord thy god is one .
which was the univeral message of all the prophets of God .

Zech.14
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The one true God as part of the Trinity which is a divine mystery.


in the next verses and many simular to it I doubt jesus is refering to himslef as god

Matt.4
[7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
[10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Id be interested to find a verse personally in the bible that says "I am god worship me "

That goes without saying. If Jesus tells Satan Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God as they are dueling. Who do you think he is reffering to?

Do you think that they do not know each other as advesarys?



Inregards to reading the koran , I am finding it fascinating read thus far .

iregards to the word ALLAH, it is GOD in english the same god of adam , moses , abraham , and jesus , and all of us , I think the Ilah in other languages , god in english .

It is interesting to read and understand many things. HOWEVER>
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE

WOODY

[Samemf]

hmmm

whats interestig about the english bible is when you read a verse ( in engish) and seems pretty straight forward , its not enuf , we always need help with what that verse actually means to some meaning which is not straight forward .

why wouldnt he just say thou shall not tempt me ?

but no the verse says
Matt.4
[7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
[10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

if he was refering to himself it would have been " and only me shll you serve .

Zech.14
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The one true God as part of the Trinity which is a divine mystery.

yes and a mystery it will remain , I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone explained the trinity as a mystery .

I think we made jesus devine , we put that on him and he had nothing to do with it , he himself worshipped god (not himself )

just my opinion , I mean no harm to anyone , this is just my thinking about this

Sam

[ANTIQUER]

hmmm

whats interestig about the english bible is when you read a verse ( in engish) and seems pretty straight forward , its not enuf , we always need help with what that verse actually means to some meaning which is not straight forward .

why wouldnt he just say thou shall not tempt me ?

but no the verse says
Matt.4
[7] Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
[10] Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

if he was refering to himself it would have been " and only me shll you serve .

Zech.14
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The one true God as part of the Trinity which is a divine mystery.

yes and a mystery it will remain , I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone explained the trinity as a mystery .

I think we made jesus devine , we put that on him and he had nothing to do with it , he himself worshipped god (not himself )

just my opinion , I mean no harm to anyone , this is just my thinking about this

Sam

Greetings Sam;

Great, you have given a real verse to discuss, that really heps. First, read the whole passage, don't pull individual verses out. That can add to confusion as you don't have what's going on to aid in understanding. Maybe you have read it as you quoted 2 verses from the same passage.

In this passage the devil is confronting Jesus at his weakest point physically as He has been fasting for forty days. He is trying to win Jesus over to his side in hope of defeating God's plan and figures this would be a good time to try. He answers Satan with 3 verses from the Old Testament(Deut. 8:3, Deut. 6:16, Deut. 10:20), which is always the best way to confront Satan. Satan thought that he might succeed as he did with Eve as Jesus was in his earthly body, and if he did he would prevent Jesus mission and ministry from succeeding. Notice Jesus used old scripture Satan already knew to defeat him. As soon as He did Satan realized he had failed and took off. During this time on earth Jesus was not to be worshipped, never asked for it. That was not His mission. When He comes the next time He will be worshipped as the King of All. Zechariah 14 is a prophetic chaptr talking about that next return when He sets up His 1000 year kingdom on earth after the battle of Armageddon and while Satan and his crowd are confined to Hell pending their final destruction.

Read I Thessalonians 4:13-18 about His second coming and Rev. 20:1-3 for Satan's confinement. As for the Trinity it's not that big a mystery, just hard for us to grasp. Look at Gen. 1:26 where man was created. It says Let US make man in OUR image____". Who was us? The Trinity, of course(Unless you think ET was there--LOL).

I hope you can obtain a Schofield Reference Ed. of the K.J. Bible. It would help you immensely. In the meantime I'm always glad to help.

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Woody:

Great posting! Always glad to have someone else on board that understands to help explain. Many heads are certainly better than one old one.

Al

[muttdogg]

Starting threads

Hey Al,
Wow, guess I didn't know what I started. Won't even post,so I get to see your religious intellect played out here. G-D's love and all that jazz.
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Also one which was an interesting read was

"THE GOSPEL according to barnabas"
who was the in fact the blind companion of jesus , this gospel was thrown out and abolished at the council of bishops in 300ad .

but managed to get on by people hiding it apparently ..

it has an interesting set of events inregards to the crusifiction that will blow your socks off and almost , Yes Almost identical to the koranic version of jesus's last days on earth .

from my readings of scriptures thus far ,

Angels are created from light ..
Jinns/spririts/devils which are all the samething but good ones are called jinns or spirits and bad ones are the soldiers of satan are created from fire

and mankind was created from clay / water etc.. all our internals and makeup can be found in the earth .

but angels have no free will , theu cannot disobey god and always without question follow his command,,

however manking and jinns/devils have freewill , so therefore we have the choice to do as we like , ie -- we can choose the path to heaven or hell ... hmmmm

interesting


ps im not preaching , dont get me wrong pls , just some interesting things I thought id share


Sam

Hey Sam;

As to the "Gospel of Barnabas" it was known of for a long time and is generally thought to have been written in the 2nd century A.D. It was rejected as being genuine as it is full of historical errors concerning the Jewish people and their worship sevice, plus it has a very feeble grasp of devine truth which would be unworthy of a Levite or discipleof Jesus. The details of the crucifiction were well known and were often included with additional false material added, with what intent who knows.

There were many false "Gospels" written that have been recovered. They have been evaluated by scholars of many different faiths and rejected for the same type of reasons. There are basic rules to follow when judging these types of things. That's why the ones we have in the Bible are there; they were judged to be authentic using those rules. I have no doubt the Apostles and their disciples wrote more than we have, but what we have is enough. The other writings were lost mostly due to the Romans destroying the country of Judea, persecuting the Christians and dispersing the Jewish People. That's why The Dead Sea Scrolls lay undiscovered for so long; the Romans raided the town they were in and killed everyone who knew about them.

I have a copy of "The Book of Enoch"(also known as Enoch 1)and, although there is one mention in the bible of Enoch having written one, no one believes this is it. It was put together from at least 4 different writings done over a period of about 200 years, about 50 B.C. to 150 A.D. It is interesting to study for various reasons, like history or how people thought at certain times, but it certainly was not inspired of God as the books of the bible are.

I guess your comments about angels and jinns are from the Koran. The word Angel in the bible means messenger. When they are refered to as "Angels of Light" they are from Heaven. When refered to as "Angels of Darkness" they are part of the angels who were thrown out of Heaven when they sided with Satan in his attempt to de-throne God. These bad angels are also refered to as devils, demons, evil spirits, etc. What remains of them will eventually be destroyed along with their leader, Satan. Obviously they had free will, but made the wrong choice as they rebelled against God.

Well, gotta go, work to do.

Al