Bible

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Jessica;

In deference to Rick I have resurrected this thread to continue our discussion.

For example, the fig tree was specifically described as not being in season and therefor not having fruit (to me this shows it is innocent and not at fault).

Jesus had said he could move mountains, he walked on water, made food multiply, etc. He certainly could have caused the tree to bear fruit instead of cursing it.

I believe the following info. will help to understand what went on. It is from The International Bible Encyclopedia. FIG, FIG-TREE in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE (Bible History Online)

4. Early Figs:
These tiny figs develop along with the leaves up to a certain point--to about the size of a small cherry--and then the great majority of them fall to the ground, carried down with every gust of wind. These are the "unripe figs" (olunthos)--translated, more appropriately in the King James Version, as "untimely figs"--of Rev 6:13. Compare also Isa 34:4 the King James Version--in the Revised Version (British and American) "leaf" has been supplied instead of "fig." These immature figs are known to the fellahin as taksh, by whom they are eaten as they fall; they may even sometimes be seen exposed for sale in the markets in Jerusalem. In the case of many trees the whole of this first crop may thus abort, so that by May no figs at all are to be found on the tree, but with the best varieties of fig-trees a certain proportion of the early crop of figs remains on the tree, and this fruit reaches ripe perfection about June. Such fruit is known in Arabic as dafur, or "early figs," and in Hebrew as bikkurah, "the first-ripe" (Isa 28:4; Jer 24:2; Hos 9:10). They are now, as of old, esteemed for their delicate flavor (Mic 7:1, etc.).


5. The Cursing of the Barren Fig-Tree:
The miracle of our Lord (Mt 21:18-20; Mk 11:12,13,10,21) which occurred in the Passover season, about April, will be understood (as far as the natural phenomena are concerned) by the account given above of the fruiting of the fig-tree, as repeatedly observed by the present writer in the neighborhood of Jerusalem. When the young leaves are newly appearing, in April, every fig-tree which is going to bear fruit at all will have some taksh ("immature figs") upon it, even though "the time of figs" (Mk 11:13 the King James Version), i.e. of ordinary edible figs--either early or late crop--"was not yet." This taksh is not only eaten today, but it is sure evidence, even when it falls, that the tree bearing it is not barren. This acted parable must be compared with Lk 13:6,9; now the time of judgment was surely coming, the fate of the fruitless Jewish nation was forcibly foretold.

So Jesus was correct in expecting the tree to have fruit. I'm sure he could have caused it to bear fruit, but that would not have given the example he wished to teach.

`

I don't see any other way to interpret that except for a loss of faith. It's basically the definition of loss of faith.

In addition to my previous comments there is no indication in this plea from the cross nor in scripture nor in any other source I know of to support that. If you know of any please let me know where it is.
He still proclaimed his faith in God (MY God, MY God...)and asked, in essence, "why have you abandoned me when, as an obedient son I have done all you assigned me, even through terrible agonies, up to and including giving up my life on this cross?"
I would expect if he had lost his faith he would have cried out something to the effect of what Job's wife told him to after all his losses and grief; "Curse God and die". (Job 2:9) But he didn't, he stayed on that cross and finished his mission. What he lost was his life, not his faith, and by so doing secured eternal life for all who believe in him as savior.

Well, I'm going to get some sleep and get rid of this headache; too many long days in a row, I guess. Until next time, be well.

Al

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Schpankme;

I would also suggest that anyone contemplating a rebuttal to your post take it up either in private messenging or elsewhere. Let's save this thread for discussion of pertinent material directly related to the topic at hand, which is a "proposed explanation for the great pyramids."

We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was “before sunrise” on Sunday morning (the FIRST day of the week), that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty. - Ahmed Deedat

[QUOTE]"Deedat's debates and writings have been labelled a form of apologetics.[1] Lloyd V. J. Ridgeon, professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Glasgow writes:

Ahmed Deedat's pamphlets are being recycled to a brand new British Muslim constituency. Thus, a new generation is exposed to his malicious new disinformations. The reason for the popularity of such polemicists as Ahmed Deedat is varied: Muslim self-understandings as "the best of all communities" leads them to suppose that Islam prevails over all religions. Combined with the wounded pride of living in a post-colonial world within the continuing hegemony of western culture, some dignity can at least be preserved by claiming moral and religious superiority."[27]

Still, Deedat's influence was certainly wider than confined to the underground. Muslim scholar Farid Esack has criticized Deedat, comparing him to such fundamentalists as Rabbi Meir Kahane and Jerry Falwell, and writing[28]:

Deedat's multitude of anti-Christian, anti-Jewish and anti-Hindu videotapes have told us all that there is to be told about the other, and we are comfortable with that. There are times, of course, when questions surface about the importance of correct dogma, about the importance of labels to a God whom we believe sees beyond labels and looks at the hearts of people. Instead of pursuing these questions, we hasten back and seek refuge in "the known." We order another of those Deedat tapes.[28]

The "Stephen Roth institute for the study of contemporary antisemitism and racism" calls Deedat "anti-Jewish" but does not elaborate[29]. In France, his books have been forbidden for sale and distribution since 1994, alleging it to be violently anti-western, antisemitic and inciting to racial hate. [30]

Following his 1981 debate with Deedat, Josh McDowell released a book which included criticism of a number of Deedat's arguments, from a Christian perspective.[31] Deedat responded to part of McDowell's book in chapters 17 and 19 of "Crucifixion or Cruci-fiction".[32]

In his last tour to Australia, the publicity resulting from the presence of Deedat caused Franca Arena, member of the Legislative Council of the government of New South Wales to comment in her speech concerning racism:
“ Of course, other victims of racism are often Australians who are visibly different, especially women who wear Muslim attire. While I condemn such attacks, I also condemn attacks against Christians by Muslims who come to Australia to sow the seed of religious hatred. In this regard I refer to Islamic evangelist Sheik Ahmed Deedat, a South African who, on Good Friday, spoke about Easter, indulged in bible-bashing and incited racial hatred. I am all for freedom of speech, but our leaders should show some understanding and, above all, respect for the views and beliefs of others. Australia can do without people like Sheik Deedat. I do not know why he came to Australia or why he adopted such a confrontationist approach on Good Friday at a big public meeting at Sydney Town Hall when he disparaged the Christian faith. I certainly do not support such an approach.[33]. ”[QUOTE]

Ahmed Deedat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Matt. 15:14

14 Let them alone : they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Anyone who has experienced the new birth as taught by Jesus pays no attention to this type of rhetoric as we know the truth of his message and that He is indeed alive. That's why true Christianity has survived and will continue in spite of people like Ahmad Deedat, who is certainly not the first nor the last person to attempt to discredit Christianity.

John 3:1-7 & 3:16-18

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest , except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born ? 5 Jesus answered , Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

3:16-18
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved . 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Al

[Schpankme]

Now trying actually reading the text and replying to the information provided; it comes right out of your Bible

CHRIST” IS NOT A NAME
The Christian Religion(s) today blindly accept that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, they use prophecies from the Jewish Bible (the Old Testament) to prove their claim that Jesus was the Messiah promised to the Jews. Let's examine the only unequivocal claim made by Jesus in the Gospels and examine whether he fulfilled his promise to the Jews. We must admit that the word CHRIST is not a name, it is a title. Take Note: The Greek word for “anointed” is Christos from which we get the word Christ. The name that was given to Mary (Luke 2:21) for her yet unborn son was JESUS and NOT Christ. It was only after his baptism at the hands of John the Baptist that he, Jesus, claimed to be the Christ.

MIRACLE AS PROOF
Matthew records that the learned men among the Jews - the Scribes and Pharisees - came to Jesus and asked, “MASTER, WE WOULD SEE A SIGN FROM THEE”. (Matthew 12:38). What they really wanted was some “magic trick,” some “sleight of hand” like producing a rabbit out of a hat. This is the type of “sign” or MIRACLE they were looking for. The Jews mistook him for a sorcerer, a wizard, a charlatan.

NO “SIGN” BUT ONE **
With righteous indignation Jesus replies: “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign, but no sign (no miracle) shall be given unto it, save that sign (miracle) of the Prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Matthew 12:39-40). Jesus says, “NO SIGN.” He does not refer the Jews to blind Bartimeus whose sight he had restored. He does not speak about the “woman with issues” who was healed by merely touching him; or about the 2000 pigs he had destroyed to heal “a man possessed;” or the 5000 and the 3000 people he had fed and satiated with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. “No sign,” says Jesus, BUT ONE! - “THE SIGN OF THE PROPHET JONAS!” Now, his claim to being the Messiah (Christ) stands or falls with the ONLY “sign” he was prepared to give.

Did Jesus fulfill the only sign he gave? Christendom answers with a unanimous Y-E-S! Without heeding the Biblical advice “Try all things, and keep that which is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) ‘Don’t take things for granted’, but “PROVE ALL THINGS!”

JONAH FLEES HIS CALL
What was this “sign” (miracle) of Jonah? To find out we have to go to the “Book of Jonah” in the Old Testament. God commanded Jonah to go to Nineveh and warn the Ninevites to repent from their “yea, let every man turn from his evil way, and from the wickedness that is in their hands.” (Jonah 3:8) But Jonah was loath to go and warn the Ninevites, so he goes to Joppa instead of Ninevah, and takes a boat to run away from his Lord’s command. While at sea, there was a terrible tempest. According to the superstition of the mariners, a person fleeing from his Master’s command creates such turmoil at sea. They began to enquirer among themselves and said, “COME, AND LET US CAST LOTS, (like choosing straws, with one shorter then the rest) THAT WE MAY KNOW FOR WHOSE CAUSE THIS EVIL IS UPON US. SO THEY CAST LOTS, AND THE LOT FELL UPON JONAH.” (Jonah 1:7). Though here was a temporary lapse on the part of Jonah in fulfilling his mission, he manfully and most outrageously volunteers: “AND HE SAID UNTO THEM TAKE ME UP, AND CAST ME FORTH INTO THE SEA; SO SHALL THE SEA BE CALM UNTO YOU: FOR I KNOW THAT FOR MY SAKE THIS GREAT TEMPEST IS UPON YOU.” (Jonah 1:12)

DEAD OR ALIVE?
The question now arises, that when the ship-master and the crew threw him overboard, was Jonah dead or alive? Any Christian child who has attended Sunday school will give an immediate reply: “ALIVE!” The storm subsides. Next a 'fish' swallows Jonah. Was he dead or alive when swallowed? The answer again is “ALIVE”. Was he dead or alive when “JONAH PRAYED UNTO THE LORD HIS GOD OUT OF THE FISH’S BELLY?” (Jonah 2:1) Surely dead men don’t cry and don’t pray! The answer again is “ALIVE” For three days and three nights the fish takes him around the ocean: dead or alive? “ALIVE!” is the answer. On the third day it vomits him on the seashore: dead or alive? A-L-I-V-E, of course!

Now, what had Jesus prophesied about himself? He said: “AS JONAH WAS ... SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE” LIKE JONAH. And how was Jonah? Was he dead or alive for three days and three nights? Alive! ALIVE! ALIVE! - Is the unanimous answer from the Jew, the Christian and the Muslim!

UNLIKE JONAH
If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb, as he himself had foretold! But Christianity hangs on the flimsy thread of the death” of Jesus for its salvation. So it has to answer that Jesus was DEAD for three days and three nights. The contradiction*between*his utterance and its fulfillment is obvious. Jonah ALIVE, Jesus DEAD! Very UNLIKE Jonah! Jesus had said “LIKE Jonah” not UNLIKE Jonah. If this is true then according to his own test Jesus is not the TRUE Messiah of the Jews. If the Gospel record is genuine then how can we blame the Jews for rejecting “CHRIST”?

THREE AND THREE = 72 HOURS?
The Doctors of Divinity these Professors of Theology will reply that in Matthew 12:40 under discussion, the emphasis is on the TIME factor - “as Jonas was THREE days and THREE nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man be THREE days and THREE nights in the heart of the earth.” “Please note,” says the learned theologians, “that the word “THREE” is repeated F-O-U-R times in this verse to prove that Jesus was going to fulfill the prophecy as regards the length of time he was going to remain in the tomb, and NOT ‘As Jonas was’ in relation to his being alive or dead. If it is the time factor that Jesus was stressing then let us ask whether he fulfilled that aspect of his promise to the Jews as well. The Christian dogmatist answers: “OF COURSE!”

PUBLIC HOLIDAY
The question arises: when was Christ crucified? The whole Christian world answers: “FRIDAY!” Is this the reason we celebrate “Good Friday” - as a Public Holiday in every Christian nation? What makes Good Friday” so good? “It is the death of Christ on the Cross on this day to wash off our sins,” says the Christians. So he was killed on the cross on a Friday, 2000+ years ago? “YES!” says the Christians. From the Gospel records we gather that the Jews were in a hurry to eliminate Jesus. Hence the midnight trial, and then dispatching*him off to Pilate in the morning; from Pilate to Herod and then back again to Pilate. The vested interests were afraid of the general public. Jesus was their hero. He had been their benefactor. His enemies had to do away with him quickly, and succeeded in doing so. However, as much as they were in a hurry to hang him on the cross, they were in equal hurry to bring him down from the cross before sunset on Friday because of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath starts at about 6 p.m. on Friday and the Jews were warned in Deuteronomy 21:23 that the victim of crucifixion was an “accursed of God” and was not to be permitted to remain hanging on the Sabbath day, “that thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.” To satisfy the religious scruples of the Scribes and Pharisees the “secret disciples” of Jesus took down the body from the cross. They gave the body the Jewish burial-bath, plastered it with “one hundred pounds weight of aaloes and myrrh” (John 19:39), and then placed the shrouded body into the sepulcher before nightfall.

WHY “SUPPOSED”?
There are numerous differences between the various sects and denominations of Christianity, but on the above they are unanimous. Jesus is SUPPOSED to be in the tomb on the night of Friday. He is still SUPPOSED to be in the tomb on the day of Saturday. He is still SUPPOSED to be in the tomb on the night of Saturday. Christians agree whole-heatedly with this. It will be noted that the word ‘SUPPOSED’ was repeated three times. The reason is that the Gospels are silent as to when exactly Jesus came out of the tomb.

In the final analysis, let us see whether Jesus was THREE days and THREE nights in the tomb:

EASTER WEEK IN THE SEPULCHER

FRIDAY - placed in tomb just before sunset (One night)

SATURDAY - supposed to be in tomb (One day & One night)

SUNDAY - missing before sunrise

TOTAL: One Day & Two Nights in the Sepulcher

You will no doubt note that the GRAND TOTAL is ONE day and TWO nights, and NOT three days and three nights. According to the Christian Scriptures Jesus had failed a SECOND time. FIRST he was unlike Jonah, who was ALIVE in the belly of the fish, which is the exact opposite of what the Christians claim had happened to their Jesus, who was DEAD for the same period of time as Jonah was – ALIVE. SECONDLY, we discover that he also failed to fulfill the TIME FACTOR as well. The greatest mathematician in Christendom will fail to obtain the desired result - THREE days and THREE nights. We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was “before sunrise” on Sunday morning (the FIRST day of the week), that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty. - Ahmed Deedat

- Schpankme

[Schpankme]

Ahmed Deedat

ANTIQUER,

I've read all your posts here and frankly there's not enough time in the day to correct all of your delusional thoughts about the Origin of the Bible(s) and your pretend God(s).

Here's some of your comments; I've included my comments to help you read along:

Jesus Christ died for my Sins (What was the sign of Jonah?)

The Bible does not mistreat women (spoken like a man, wonder where the women folk got off to -- hey here's a *****, lets stone her -- oops, sorry that was a virgin!)

The K.J. Bible is not of Catholic origin (so the Homosexual/Pedophile >> King James wrote a whole new bible - direct from god, and here I thought they just rewrote the Bible in Old English, changing and removing what ever they wanted. The work began to take shape in 1604 and progressed steadily. The completed work was issued in 1611, the complete title page reading: "THE HOLY BIBLE, Conteyning the Old Testament, and the New: Newly Translated out of the Originall tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties Special Commandment. Appointed to be read in Churches. Imprinted at London by Robert Barker, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majestie. ANNO DOM. 1611." )

Hebrew (Old Testament) >> Greek (New Testament) >> Latin Vulgate (Catholic) >> Bishop's Bible >> Geneva >> KJV
By 600 AD, the Bible had been restricted to only one language: the Latin Vulgate! The only organized and recognized church at that time in history was the Catholic Church of Rome, and they refused to allow the scripture to be available in any language other than Latin. Those in possession of non-Latin scriptures would be executed! This was because only the priests were educated to understand Latin, and this gave the church ultimate power… a power to rule without question… a power to deceive… a power to extort money from the masses. Nobody could question their “Biblical” teachings, because few people other than priests could read Latin. The church capitalized on this forced-ignorance!

The Catholic church came from a group of people who tried to merge Jesus teaching of salvation through faith (Who else do you think wrote the Bible-New testament, and supposedly translated the Old Testament! And who do you think actually owned bibles before 1650!)

The Trinity was only one topic they addressed at the Council of Nicaea. Constantine (you mean the Emperor) called for the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. He sent out about 1800 invitations (asking all to please attend my meeting, after all, I'm your Emperor). Only about 300 were accepted. (Strange that this was the turning point in history where the STATE (Emperor) sponsored a religion as a means for controlling the masses. And woe be it on to anyone who would not accepted for torture and death awaited them with this new Christian Religion (poor Pagens, will just use there scriptures and call it ours) -- you must of forgot the mass murders and the burning of the Alexandria Library -- Oh that's right all the real Christians ignored their Emperor and stayed home). But the priests should not alone bear the infamy of these laws of persecution and death, instigated by them. To the Devil his due! The “Holy Ghost” itself, it is claimed by the Bible and the Church, inspired and decreed by positive command all the bloody murders and tortures by the priests from Moses to the last one committed; and the spirit of them lives and is but hibernating today. The Holy God of Israel, whose name is Merciful, thus decreed on Sinai: “He that sacrificeth to any gods [elohim], save unto Yahweh only, he shall be utterly destroyed” (Ex. XXII, 20). And hear this, which the ancient priests attribute to their God: “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go serve other gods, and ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die” (Deut. xiii, 6--10)!

The true Christian churches did not attend the Council of Nicaea. (please name these Christian churches at 325 A.D. that you speak of?)

Jesus kills 2000-swine, says inhabited by devils, which he drove off a cliff. (how much do you think 2000 pigs cost back then? Do you think the owner may have wanted PAYMENT for their destruction? Who ever owned the 2000 swine must have been a very powerful man and wealth and can you imagine the smell, why i wouldn't let my neighbor have 2000 pigs in my back yard, he's have to have those far out in the country.) oink!

Schpankme

"Creation Science 101" by Roy Zimmerman
YouTube - "Creation Science 101" by Roy Zimmerman

[Schpankme]

Say Hello To The Hebrew Patriarchs

One of the most complete narrative accounts of Hebrew descent and marriage occurs in Genesis, in the details of the lives of the patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

These well known legends provide illustrations of some basic principles of the ancient Hebrew Social Order along with some contradictory evidence on the dynamics of endogamy, inheritance and succession.

Primogeniture is the common law right of the first born son to inherit the entire estate, to the exclusion of younger siblings. It is the tradition of inheritance by the first-born of the entirety of a parent's wealth, estate or office; or in the absence of children, by collateral relatives, in order of seniority of the collateral line.

The Old Testament account of Hebrew origins begins with Terah of the Chaldean city of Ur (in Mesopotamia) and his three sons: Haran, Nahor, and Abraham. (Genesis 11:24-32). Haran has a son, Lot, by an unspecified wife. Nahor marries Milkah, who is noted as Haran's daughter. Whether the Haran mentioned here is Nahor's brother is unclear, since Nahor's father-in-law is identified as the father of Milkah and Iscah, but not of Lot.

Abraham is married to Sarah. No mention is given of Sarah's parentage, but later in Genesis passages, Abraham tells both Pharaoh (what was his name) (Genesis 12:10-20) and King Abimelech (Genesis 20) that Sarah is his sister to avoid the displeasure of these rulers, both of whom show a sexual interest in her. When Abimelech confronts him with his deception, Abraham answers that Sarah is indeed his wife but also his half sister by Terah's second marriage.

The three brothers experience divergent fates. Haran dies; Abraham migrates to Canaan, taking Haran's son, Lot, with him; Nahor remains in Mesopotamia, fathering one son, Bethuel, who in turn has two children Laban and Rebekah. (Genesis 22)

In Canaan, God promises Abraham that he will become the father of a great nation, but Abraham and Sarah fail to have children. Sarah gives her husband her Egyptian hand maid, Hagar, who bears a son, Ishmael. Sarah finally gives birth to Isaac. Although Ishmael is his eldest son, Abraham designates Isaac as his heir and successor. Isaac's descendants continue in the line of Hebrew descent. Ishmael's form a separate and distinct people, the Ishmaelites. (Genesis 16).

In the meantime, Lot has separated from Abraham and gone to Sodom. Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed because of their iniquities, Lot, because of his virtue is allowed to escape with his wife and two daughters. Lot’s wife dies along the way. Lot, flees into the hills with his daughters, who trick him into sleeping with them. Each daughter gives birth to a son, who become the ancestors of the "accursed" Moabites and Ammonites. (Genesis 19)

Isaac grows to manhood, and when he is ready to marry, Abraham and Sarah make contact with their kins-people in Mesopotamia to avoid a marriage with the local Canaanites. Isaac is quickly linked up with Rebekah, his patrilateral parallel cousin. Isaac and Rebekah have twin sons, Esau, the eldest by a few minutes, and Jacob. Esau trades his birthright to Jacob for food. Esau later marries two local Canaanite women, who displease his parents, Esau regains favor by marrying his parallel cousin, Ishmael's daughter, who is referred to as Mahatath in one passage and Bashemath in another. Isaac dies, but just before his death is deceived by Rebekah and Jacob and gives his blessing and patrimony to Jacob rather than to his eldest son.

Jacob flees to his mother's, brother's (Laban's) house in Mesopotamia; Fearing Esau's wrath. Jacob contracts with Laban to work for seven years as bride service for his (parallel) cousin Rachel. After the term of service, Laban insists that Jacob marry Leah, his eldest daughter, Jacob has to serve another seven years to eventually earn Rachel's hand (Genesis 24-29).
Jacob returns to Canaan and is reconciled with Esau. Esau becomes the ancestor of a separate people the Edomites.

Jacob becomes the progenitor of the Hebrew people through twelve sons born from Leah, Rachel, and their two handmaids. Each son, except Joseph, becomes the ancestor of a tribe of Israel, which bears his name.

Joseph's descendants are divided into two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim, after his two sons, as a consequence their adoption by Jacob (Genesis 48).
In his final blessing, Jacob gives special recognition to Ephraim and his progeny, in spite of Joseph's protest that it should be rightly be given to Manasseh, as the eldest son. In addition to his twelve sons, Jacob also fathers a daughter, Dinah (Genesis 34). No account is given of any of Dinah's children or descendants.

Themes for discussion

1.The divisions among the Israelites and their immediate neighbors and among the tribes of Israel are modeled after a segmentary descent system.

2.The normal succession rule of primogeniture is consistently broken;

a.Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are youngest sons but assume the role of exclusive Hebrew ancestors at the expense of disinherited older brothers.

b.the special prominence of younger sons is followed in subsequent genealogical accounts, notably in the cases of Joseph, Ephraim, and (in a later cycle) David.

3.The delineation of the Israelites as a favored peoples is determined through a process of lineage endogamy (in-marriage) rather than primogeniture through:

a.Abraham's marriage to his half sister, Sarah,

b.Isaac's marriage to his patrilateral parallel cousin, Rebekah,

c.Jacob's marriage to his patrilateral parallel cousins, Leah and Rachel.

4.Collateral lines are disqualified because of exogamy (out-marriage), as in the cases of Ishmael, the son of an Egyptian, and Esau, who marries Canaanite wives.

5.Collateral lines are also disqualified because of incest, as in the case of Lot and his daughters.

6.Incestuous marriages also occur within the main line of succession

a.Abraham marries his half sister,

b.Jacob marries two sisters,

c.Judah fathers children with his daughter-in-law

Schpankme

[Schpankme]

IS IT GOD’S WORD?

A mystery of the ages in connection with the Flood is how Noah's venerable grandfather Methuselah survived the universal cataclysm which destroyed all life except the Noah ménage and menagerie in the ark.

Methuselah did not die until a year or more after the Flood -- fourteen years after according to the Septuagint. It is recorded that Methuselah was 187 years old when his son Lamech was born (Gen. V, 25), and he lived for 787 years afterwards, dying at the ripe age of 969 years (v, 26, 27).

Lamech was 182 years old when his son Noah was born (V, 28, 29). When the Flood began, Noah was in his six hundredth year, or, to be exact, he was 599 years, one month, and seventeen days old (VII, 11); and Noah lived for 350 years after the Flood, and was 950 years old when he died (IX, 28, 29). Methuselah was alive when the Flood began and when it ended, if the Bible record is true:

1.From the birth of Lamech to the beginning of the Flood was (182 plus 599) 781 years; and from the birth of Lamech to the end of the Flood was 782 years. If Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech 782 years he survived the Flood. Or, again:

2.From the birth of Methuselah to the beginning of the Flood was (187 plus 182 plus 599 years) 968 years; the Flood ended a year later, when Methuselah was 969, and he died at that good old age. Or again:

3.From the birth of Methuselah to the death of Noah was (187 plus 182 plus 950 years) 1319 years. As Noah died 350 years after the Flood, from the birth of Methuselah to the end of the Flood was (1319 minus 350 years) 969 years, the age of Methuselah at his death, after the Flood.

As Noah shut his own aged grandfather out of the ark, it is a holy wonder where and how Methuselah spent that watery last year of his advanced old age.

Schpankme

[rickoff]

UNLIKE JONAH
If Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, then Jesus also ought to have been alive in the tomb, as he himself had foretold! But Christianity hangs on the flimsy thread of the death” of Jesus for its salvation. So it has to answer that Jesus was DEAD for three days and three nights. The contradiction*between*his utterance and its fulfillment is obvious. Jonah ALIVE, Jesus DEAD! Very UNLIKE Jonah! Jesus had said “LIKE Jonah” not UNLIKE Jonah. If this is true then according to his own test Jesus is not the TRUE Messiah of the Jews. If the Gospel record is genuine then how can we blame the Jews for rejecting “CHRIST”?

I am not a "Bible thumper," and don't normally get involved in religious debates concerning Bible topics, but I must say that what you have put forward has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. Let's look at exactly what Matthew 12:40 tells us that Jesus said to the Pharisees:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

This is clearly a comparison only of time. Jesus did not say that he would be alive for those 3 days and nights. In fact, it is well known that Jesus stated to his disciples that he would be killed, and would rise again after 3 days. Killed = DEAD. See for yourself:

Mark 8:27 - And Jesus went out, and his disciples, into the towns of Caesarea Philippi: and by the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Whom do men say that I am?
Mark 8:28 - And they answered, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others, One of the prophets.
Mark 8:29 - And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mark 8:30 - And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Mark 8:31 - And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Therefore, there is absolutely nothing contradictory in Jesus' statement to the Pharisees. He never claimed to anyone that he would be alive while being "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth." So your assumption that Jesus failed by not remaining alive, like Jonah, and therefore cannot be the true Messiah, is an utterly false assumption.

The question arises: when was Christ crucified? The whole Christian world answers: “FRIDAY!”

Again you present a false assumption. "The whole Christian world" certainly does not agree that Jesus was crucified on a Friday. That idea was popularized by the Roman Catholic Church in the sixth century AD. The Roman Pope decided it was not seemly for the Church to depend on the Jewish calendar to celebrate the Passover death of Jesus Christ. He commissioned a learned priest named Dionysius Exiguus to determine when the original death of Jesus Christ was for the purpose of devising a system by which the Church could announce the time of Easter. As a result of his researches, he picked 33 AD as the year. It was the only year he could pick and stay with a Friday crucifixion date, which is what the Catholic Church deemed to be correct. In those days the bulk of theological opinion was that, since Jesus was nearly 30 when He was baptized, and He had a public ministry of about 2 ½ years, He was crucified when He was in His 33rd year. Thus Dionysius Exiguus arrived at a birth year of 1 AD. Unfortunately for Dionysius and the Catholic Church, and any Protestant churches that adopted this notion, that is impossible. That is because Herod died in 4 BC, when Jesus is said to have been a “young child.” The scholarly consensus, based on Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews is that Herod died at the end of March, or early April in 4 BC. Josephus wrote that Herod died 37 years after being named as King by the Romans, and 34 years after the death of Antigonus.[10] This would imply that he died in 4 BC. Matthew 2:1 says that, “Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king…” Matthew 2:13-16 tells us that Joseph took baby Jesus and Mary to Egypt, upon learning that Herod would have all children 2 years old and younger slain, and that they remained in Egypt until Herod’s death, at which time Joseph took “the young child and his mother” to Nazareth (Matthew 2:19-23). So Jesus was a “young child” in March or April of 4 BC, when Herod died, and was therefore born earlier, perhaps in December of 5BC. This precludes the possibility that Jesus could have died on a Friday.

I don't have time tonight to show you why your third assumption, that Jesus did not fulfill his promise of 3 days and 3 nights entombment, is also false, but will do that tomorrow in a manner that should prove sufficient to any reasonable thinking person.

Rick

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Schpankme;

Now trying actually reading the text and replying to the information provided; it comes right out of your Bible

O.K., but you will find a lot of my answers if you read back in this thread or 2 others where Muttdog and I had long discussions. One of them was "What is your opinion of Hell". I'll have to find the other one.

You obviously have more time than I do right now. I will have to take one subject at a time, starting with my reply to the A. Deedat quotes and get to the others as I can.

Jesus Christ.

"The life and character of Jesus Christ," says Dr. Schaff, "is the holy of holies in the history of the world."

1. NAME. --The name Jesus signifies saviour . It is the Greek form of JEHOSHUA (Joshua). The name Christ signifies anointed. Jesus was both priest and king. Among the Jews priests were anointed, as their inauguration to their office. ( 1 Chronicles 16:22 ) In the New Testament the name Christ is used as equivalent to the Hebrew Messiah (anointed ), ( John 1:41 ) the name given to the long-promised Prophet and King whom the Jews had been taught by their prophets to expect. ( Matthew 11:3 ; Acts 19:4 ) The use of this name, as applied to the Lord, has always a reference to the promises of the prophets. The name of Jesus is the proper name of our Lord, and that of Christ is added to identify him with the promised Messiah. Other names are sometimes added to the names Jesus Christ, thus, "Lord," "a king," "King of Israel," "Emmanuel," "Son of David," "chosen of God." II.

Jesus Christ. - Smith's Bible Dictionary Online

So he did not begin his public ministry until properly anointed by John the Baptist in order to fulfill the requirement to be a full-fledged priest. What did John the Baptist say to Him?;
Matt. 3:11-15

11 I indeed baptize you [the Jews he was talking to] with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying , I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized , went up straightway out of the water: and, lo , the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying , This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased .

Matthew 3 "In those days came John the..." KJV - Online Bible Study

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2 And said , I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4 Then I said , I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. 5 The waters compassed me about , even to the soul: the depth closed me round about , the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. 7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. 8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. 9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed . Salvation is of the LORD. 10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Jonah 2 "Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God..." KJV - Online Bible Study

Sheol is, in the O.T., the place to which the dead go.

(1) Often, therefore, it is spoken of as the equivalent of the grave, merely, where all human activities cease; the terminus toward which all human life moves (e.g. Genesis 42:38 grave Job 14:13 grave Psalms 88:3 grave

(2) To the man "under the sun," the natural man, who of necessity judges from appearances, sheol seems no more than the grave-- the end and total cessation, not only of the activities of life, but of life itself. Ecclesiastes 9:5 Ecclesiastes 9:10

(3) But Scripture reveals sheol as a place of sorrow 2 Samuel 22:6 ; Psalms 18:5 Psalms 116:3 ; in which the wicked are turned Psalms 9:17 and where they are fully conscious ; Isaiah 14:9-17 ; Ezekiel 32:21 see, especially, Jonah 2:2 what the belly of the great fish was to Jonah that sheol is to those who are therein). The sheol of the O.T. and hades of the N.T. (See Scofield "Luke 16:23") are identical.
Habakkuk 2 - Scofield Reference Notes Bible Commentary

The men of Nineveh

Again the rejected King announces judgment (cf) Matthew 11:20-24 Israel, in the midst of the Pharisaic revival of outward religious strictness, was like a man out of whom a demon had "gone," i.e, of his own volition. He would come back and find an empty house, etc. The personal application is to a mere self-cleansed moralist.

Matthew 12 - Scofield Reference Notes Bible Commentary

So Jonas' body was in the "fish", dead (Vs. 29 says it was not some random fish, but one especially prepared for him by God) from where it was resurrected ("yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God"), while his soul was in Hell which is where he prayed from.

As to the time Jesus spent in the tomb the Bible does not say he was crucified and died on a Friday. What Deedat and others do not take into account was that the Passover Sabbath is not always on a Saturday,as is the normal weekly Sabbath. The Passover Sabbath is always on the first day of the Passover Week according to the Jewish calendar, and the week Christ was crucified it fell on a Thursday, the 15th of Nisan by their calendar. John 19:14 confirms Jesus was crucified on the day preceding Passover Sabbath. So He was crucified on a Wednesday. You can figure the rest of the time line . Sunday morning, the day of His resurrection, is the 4th day.

His quoting of the verses from Jonah to the priests , who already knew of his miracles, was a rebuke to them. He was saying the only sign they would believe, if any, was his resurrection. There are many other lessons here as the parallels between Jonas' voluntary sacrifice to save the crew and Jesus' voluntary sacrifice to save mankind,and how Jonas' descended into Hell for 3 days as did Jesus, but those are other subjects.

@Rick; Thanks for the additional research and insight.

Al

[Schpankme]

I am not a "Bible thumper," ...but you have put forward...ridiculous statements...This is clearly a comparison only of time. Jesus did not say that he would be alive for those 3 days and nights. Let's look at exactly what Matthew 12:40 tells us that Jesus said to the Pharisees:

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Hey Rick,

You sound like Bill Clinton. Would you like to define the word "is" for the class?


CRUCIFICTION

It really amazes me that the text specifically says: AS JONAH WAS, so SHALL the Son of man -- not UNLIKE Jonah but LIKE Jonah. Define for me, "How was Jonah in the Belly of the fish"?

so shall the Son of man: "you shall not kill". Does the "shall" indicate it's OK to kill after 10PM? You think that question is silly, I just read your Time-Line BS.

Now lets look at the Bible Thumpers, Time-Line Scenario, Shall we!

Was Jesus, THREE days and THREE nights in the tomb. Was the Son of man as Jonah was, THREE days and THREE nights in the belly of the fish. “as Jonas was THREE days and THREE nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man be THREE days and THREE nights in the heart of the earth.”

“Please note”, “that the word “THREE” is repeated F-O-U-R times in this verse to prove that Jesus was going to fulfill the prophecy.

We must also not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was “before sunrise” on Sunday morning (the FIRST day of the week), that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty:

FRIDAY - placed in tomb just before sunset (One night)

SATURDAY - supposed to be in tomb (One day & One night)

SUNDAY - missing before sunrise

TOTAL: One Day & Two Nights in the Tomb (1 X 3) = (3 X 3)

Hey Rick, according to your BIBLE, directly from its pages, using actually quotes -- Jesus failed the TIME-LINE because -- for as Jonah was so shall the Son of man.


"GOOD" WEDNESDAY

You seem to know your arithmetic! Let's prove that Jesus Christ was crucified on a Wednesday and not on Friday, as is supposed by Orthodox Christianity for the past two thousand years. Accordingly, if one counts backwards from Sunday morning deducting 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS, one ought to get WEDNESDAY as the answer, YES.

How was it possible for the past two thousand years the whole Christian world celebrated GOOD FRIDAY instead of GOOD WEDNESDAY?

Are you saying that the entire Christian World are ignorant of the correct day of the so called crucifixion! It means that even the Roman Catholic Church -- which claims an unbroken chain of Popes from Peter to this day -- are mislead. Brilliant!

Schpankme

"Remember thumping the Bible will make you go blind."

[Schpankme]

Smith's Bible Dictionary Online
KJV - Online Bible Study
Scofield Reference Notes Bible Commentary

I'm sorry, how many Bibles (books) do you claim to be The Word of GOD? Do you also use the Book of Mormon, Qur'an and the Nag Hammadi Library?

I note your not even using the true original Christian Bible, the Douay-Rheims, Catholic Bible. Maybe you think the other bibles convey more information since they've been edited, redacted and changed.

Schpankme

"Defense of religious faith has demonstrated throughout history, that the more unprovable a belief, the more savagely men will fight to defend it."

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Schpankme;

A couple of quick answers:

The Bible does not mistreat women (spoken like a man, wonder where the women folk got off to -- hey here's a *****, lets stone her -- oops, sorry that was a virgin!)

What a mish-mash. Try to be specific as here:

I Tim. 5:1-3

1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity. 3 Honour widows that are widows indeed.

Eph. 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

John 8:10-11 (the woman taken in adultery)

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself , and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11 She said , No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go , and sin no more.

You will find nothing in The New Testament that says to abuse women.

The true Christian churches did not attend the Council of Nicaea. (please name these Christian churches at 325 A.D. that you speak of?)

They were the New Testament churches that Paul wrote to ( Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians,Philippians, etc.), other churches that came forth from these churches and others started by the Apostles as they traveled and spread the gospel, such as John's church in Ephesus which had a membership of at least 10,000. In 300 years many churches were started by Christians such as Polycarp and other disciples.

According to Tertullian (in The Prescription of Heretics) John was banished (presumably to Patmos) after being plunged into boiling oil in Rome and suffering nothing from it. It is said that all in the entire Colosseum audience were converted to Christianity upon witnessing this miracle.

When John was aged, he trained Polycarp who later became Bishop of Smyrna. This was important because Polycarp was able to carry John's message to future generations. Polycarp taught Irenaeus, and passed on to him stories about John. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus relates how Polcarp told a story of John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within."

John the Apostle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are also some mentioned in The Book of Revelation as part of the 7 churches in the first 3 chapters, particularly the church at Philadelphia.
The church at Pergamos was one which would have gone as they held to the doctrine of Balaam which doctrine involved the non-separation of the church from the world and the idea of a priesthood over the laity; i.e. Catholicism.

Al

[Aaron]

Douay-Rheims Bible

I wasn't familiar with the Douay-Rheims Version. I'm going to buy a copy.

As a side note, a friend of mine is fluent in Aramaic
and was contracted by the Vatican - he translated some copper
scrolls found in the Dead Sea area. It was under secrecy but a bit was
shared with some close friends. Some of those little tidbits destroy
some of the most fundamental beliefs held by Christians. That is
all I can or will say.

Full online free version here:
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible with Search, Holy Scriptures.

The below is on this site:
Douay-Rheims Bible Online, Introduction

The Holy Bible Douay-Rheims Version
With Challoner Revisions 1749-52
1899 Edition of the John Murphy Company
IMPRIMATUR (for the Bible):

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, September 1, 1899.
Pope Damasus assembled the first list of books of the Bible at the Roman Council in 382 A.D. He commissioned St. Jerome to translate the original Greek and Hebrew texts into Latin, which became known as the Latin Vulgate Bible and was declared by the Church to be the only authentic and official version, in 1546.

The DR New Testament was first published by the English College at Rheims in 1582 A.D. The DR Old Testament was first published by the English College at Douay in 1609 A.D. The first King James Version was not published until 1611. This online DRV contains all 73 books, including the seven Deutero-Canonical books (erroneously called Apocrypha by Protestants). These seven books were included in the 1611 KJV, but not in later KJV Bibles.

St. Jerome considered the seven Deutero-Canonical books to be NOT inspired by God, but he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate all 73 books into Latin. Pope Damasus considered the 7 DC books to be inspired by God. Later in 1946, after the finding of the dead-sea scrolls, it was discovered that these 7 DC books were used by the Jews in Alexandria, even in their services. This verifies that Pope Damasus was correct.

It is interesting to note that the Palestinian Jews did not accept the 7 DC books for their version of Holy Scriptures and neither did they accept any of the New Testament. Unfortunately, the Protestants base their Bible on this version which comes from a people who did not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

The whole Douay-Rheims Bible was revised and diligently compared with the Latin Vulgate by Bishop Richard Challoner in 1749-1752 A.D. The notes included in the text were written by Dr. Challoner.

The DR Bible was photographically reproduced from the 1899 edition of the John Murphy Company, Baltimore, Maryland, by Tan Books in 1971. Eventually, this edition was optically scanned to produce a large text file which this publisher used for creating this website, with the aid of text-processing software.

One important goal of this project was to preserve the original text "as is", without making any changes in the wording, because the original text had the Imprimatur of James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, dated Sept 1st 1899.

The text file was checked quite thoroughly by software written by the publisher for punctuation errors and verses out of order. The index was humanly checked for misspelled words and the corrections were made to the text. However, some spelling errors may still be present in the text. Many verses were out of order in the original file. These have been corrected.

Every effort was made to ensure that this online version is an exact match to the original printed version. No words were added or ommitted from the text, except for correcting errors caused by the scanning process. No words were rearranged. No verse numbers were changed, except in the case of Psalm 9.

Psalm 9 originally contained 21 verses and there were 2 versions of Psalm 10, numbering 1-18 and 1-8. This obviously caused a conflict, so it was decided to put the first Psalm 10 in the last part of Psalm 9 and renumber the verses 22-39. Thus, I retained the same numbering for all the Psalms as all the Douay Rheims Bibles. Note, in the Protestant Bibles the numbering of Psalms 10 through 146 differs by one.

The search engine and indexer were created using sophisticated algorithms and software engineering to ensure quick response even for dial-up 56K modems.

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Aaron;

From my post #38 on page 4 of this thread:

The Catholic church did not write the K.J. bible I quote. A brief history of the two is as follows;

The Catholic bible now in use is the Douay-Rheims translation. It is a translation of a translation. It was first published in 1582 by The English College founded in 1568 in Douay, England to train priests to convert the english back to Catholicism. It was published in 1582 in Rhiems during a temporary re-location of the college. It was translated from the Latin Vulgate which was translated by St. Jerome (345-420) from Hebrew, Greek & Aramaic. The Vulgate was declared the official bible of the Catholic church at The Council of Trent.

The King James I use was largely the work of John Tyndale. He used a lot of the work of John Wyclif who produced the first complete Bible in english in 1380-1400. Both of them used The Septaugint and The Textus Receptus,written in Greek and Hebrew,as their primary source but they had others.

To quote from Sir Frederic G. Kenyon in his book "Dictionary of The English Bible" (chapter "English Versions") "The english wording of the Rheims New Testament follows closely the Protestant version first produced by William Tyndale in 1525; though the base text for the Rheim's translators appears to be the revision of Tyndale published by Miles Cloverdale in Paris in 1538."

So The K.J. Bible is not only not of Catholic origin, but the Catholic translators of the Douay-Rheim's refered to Tyndale's work to use in their version.

The KJB we use today is the result of work by a council of about 53 learned men appointed by King James to check out and/or re-work Tyndale's original translation. They left about 80% of his work intact: the rest had minor changes.

Al

[Schpankme]

According to Tertullian

"Hinneh lash-sheqer asah et sheqer sepharim -- Behold, the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought lies." Jeremiah, VIII. 8.

SUNDRY HOLY HEBREW men of old, we are told on the authority of the name of the pseudo-first Jewish-Christian Pope, "spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2 Peter, II, 21). These literary moving of the Spirit were sometime reduced to writing in "Sacred Scriptures"; and again later Christian authority assures: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Tim. III, 16), -- though this is a falsified rendition: the true reading is: "Every scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired," as the original Greek text is quoted by Father Tertullian. (Ante-Niceite Fathers IV, 16.)

It is the popular supposition that the 66 -- (Catholic Bible 73) -- “little books” which comprise the Bible as we know it, are the whole sum of Hebrew and Christian “sacred writings”, which have claimed and have been accorded the sanction of Divine inspiration and “treated by the Church as CANONICAL”. The term “canonical” in ecclesiastical parlance means Books accepted as divinely inspired; books which “were definitely canonized, or adjudged to have a uniquely Divine or authoritative quality”, as is the authoritative definition. (Catholic Encyclopedia III, 267.) “Canonicity depends on inspiration.” (Encyclopedia Biblica I, 653.) The holy Hebrew “canon” was closed, or the last inspired Book of the Old Testament written, according to Jewish “Tradition”, by Ezra, about 444 B.C. (Encyclopedia Biblica I, 658, 662.) In truth, however, several of the Books of the Old Testament were written much later and were never heard of by Ezra; and “some found their way in, others not, on grounds of taste -- the taste of the period”, says Wellhausen. (Einleitung, p. 652, 6th Ed.)

The popular idea is that when the "moving" of the above inspired 66 (Catholic Bible 73) sacred writings was ended, the moving Spirit retired from the field of Hebrew and later of Christian literature, and thus closed the "sacred canon" of the respective Hebrew and Christian Testaments. This will be seen to be a mistake, in the judgment of the True Christian Church, according to which the Jews evidently did not know their own inspired writings, and curiously omitted from their "canon" a number of divinely "moved" books and scraps of books, which the better-instructed Christian Church has adopted as full of inspiration into its own present official Bible.

The Greek priest who forged the “Gospel according to St. Matthew”, having before him the false Septuagint translation of Isaiah, fables the Jewish Mary yielding to the embraces of the Angel Gabriel to engender Jesus, and backs it up by appeal to the Septuagint translation of Isaiah VII, 14:

“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.” (Matt. I, 23.)

Isaiah’s original Hebrew, with the mistranslated words underscored, reads:

“Hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel”;

Which, falsely translated by the false pen of the pious translators, renders thus in the English:

“Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel” (Isa. VII, 14.) The Hebrew words ha-almah mean simply the young woman; and harah is the Hebrew past or perfect tense, “conceived,” which in Hebrew, as in English, represents past and completed action.

Honestly translated, the verse reads:

“Behold, the young woman has conceived -- [is with child) -- and beareth a son and calleth his name Immanuel.”

Almah means simply a young woman, of marriageable age, whether married or not, or a virgin or not; in a broad general sense exactly like girl or maid in English, when we say shop-girl, parlor-maid, bar-maid, without reference to or vouching for her technical virginity, which, in Hebrew, is always expressed by the word bethulah. But in the Septuagint translation into Greek, the Hebrew almah was erroneously rendered into the Greek parthenos, virgin, with the definite article 'ha' in Hebrew, and e in Greek, (the), rendered into the indefinite "a" by later falsifying translators.

So, tell me again, in your King James Version, how does it describe the mother of Jesus? That's right; >>V-I-R-G-I-N<<. It's shocking how many times the word virgin is used in the Bible; but clearly only males need be concerned with what he's getting into!

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV)
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Clearly your bible was a direct translation from the Latin Vulgate (can we say Roman Catholic Church) >> German Luther Bible >> KJV.

Schpankme

[Aaron]

any change is unacceptable

Hi Aaron;

From my post #38 on page 4 of this thread:



The KJB we use today is the result of work by a council of about 53 learned men appointed by King James to check out and/or re-work Tyndale's original translation. They left about 80% of his work intact: the rest had minor changes.

Al

I'm familiar with Tyndale a bit - but ANY change is unacceptable to me.
1% change bastardizes the the work as a whole.