Bible

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Al,

I believe in the multiple topologies too.

With the Bible Codes, yes, I have seen several variations of interpretations of what it is about and there seems to be some schools of thought on it that are more accurate than others in my opinion. Overall, the entire concept is utterly profound and blows my mind.

There are differences of course in future, present and past tense. Have you noticed any overall theme to the tenses used in the Old Testament and the New Testament?

With multiple topologies, there are multiple ways of looking at that too I think.

For example, without getting into the belief of what each thing actually represents specifically...in Revelation, what I mean is that if someone that isn't familiar with analogies, parables, and allegories, someone I believe is supposed to envision dragons, etc... because that is appropriate for their level of understanding and fits the purpose just fine.

Someone that may have done deeper into the learning of what represents what, they may come to the understanding of the political meaning behind some things in Revelation that the beasts, etc... represent.

So, the same story has the same underlying meaning for 2 different people at the same time, yet both are essentially true.

A "litmus test" for me on what may be "of canon" or not or divinely inspired is that a certain "truth" will ring true at multiple levels at the same time.

If something only rings true on one level of understanding but not on other levels, then that to me, may be a sign that it isn't divinely inspired.

There will be things of course that are obviously at face value. But when it comes to the "mystery" of different things...that is usually when I feel and perceive in my own way, multiple topological meanings simultaneously and they are apply at the same time.

Muttdog - Genesis is one of my favorites and I won't go into my own beliefs on it right now, but am authentically interested in this overall subject and will look forward to where this conversation can go.

Hi Aaron.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by tenses in the Bible. Usually with very careful reading you can understand if the writer is talking about some current event, something in past history or something yet to come. Is that the kind of thing you mean? Revelation is particularly hard to follow as John jumps around a lot.

For example Rev. starts with John in prayer. He relates the messages from Jesus Christ to the 7 churches through chapter 3. Then in chapter 4 he sees the door in heaven and "in the spirit" again he is taken to Heaven. There is a time period between the 2 events but it is not expressed.

As far as topological interpretations I think you have the right idea. Most of the problem with various conflicting meanings comes from people not familiar enough with scriptures and that don't use sound methods of Biblical interpretation and/or they are not Christians.

You sometimes also have to take into account when the verses were written as in Revelation Chapter 9 when John describes the weapons and results of warfare. How else would you describe modern weapons (tanks, helicopters, missles, atomic bombs, etc.) to a 1st. or 2nd century person or anyone until the 20th century when these things were invented.

It also sounds like we have about the same "litmus test". To be more explicit, in my case I believe The Holy Spirit that lives in me and all true Christians helps to determine what is correct or true and what isn't. A quick example; when I read The K.J.Bible it "sings" to my spirit, but when I read, say, The Gnostic Gospels I felt only that I was reading another collection of man-made rubbish.

I also look forward to a discussion of Genesis. As to favorites I like Jack Hyles comment; "Just open it up , it's all good".

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Doug,
You said you liked sarcasm! Phooey on you. There is a difference between out of body experiences and a person that is actually dead. I have had a few out of body experiences. I am not even into transcendental meditation, however some of my friends were, so I knew what was happening. It was cool,but very freaky, looking down on yourself. You still feel your body, but feel an extreme lightness of being. Hasn't happened in 30 years, but I can still feel the sensation. And no, I didn't land on Pluto, see the Sphinx, or become Superman for a day.
Dan

Hey Dan.

What did you see?

Al

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Aaron,
Just to put my two cents in, Genesis, as far as Adam And Eve goes, is probably the most misunderstood part of the "bible". Or, the most misinterpreted. The Tree of Knowledge is where Eve ate the apple,then "coerced" Adam to eat of the same. Then G-D sent them out of Eden. So, if G-D is all knowing and all seeing wouldn't this G-D have stopped the temptation in the first place? Why not? Think of a better way to denigrate women? And if the "bad" thing coerced Adam and Eve, to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, what was "bad"?
Dan

Hi Dan.

The things you ask have been asked for centuries. Let's just deal with Eve and your "denigration of women" comment for now.

First, there is no description of what they ate (apple?) and it really doesn't matter. God told Adam not to eat from that tree. He was not "co-erced", he was tempted and gave in to it willingly. Whatever it was they ate it brought them out of the pure, sinless state they had existed in until then.
Their sin was disobedience and all involved were punished for it. Eve was punished by suffering sorrow in childbirth and losing her equality with Adam(he was now to rule over her) and she was to desire only him. Of course they were both banned from Eden.

That was the extent of her punishment. Women are never denigrated in the Bible. Husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved His Church and gave His life for it. They are told to take care of their wives and the rest of their family and the younger women and widows. Wives are told to love, respect and obey their husband. That is God's blueprint for the family. We would be a lot better off if more people followed it instead of a lot of these "so-called" modern ideas. They are just wedges used by Satan to drive families apart and destroy them.

I think I'll leave it there for now. Maybe Aaron can pick it up as to the rest of your questions or I will later, or both.

Al

[ANTIQUER]

Awesome Dan!!!
The outta body experiences or astral traveling is really something we all do (but no one tells us that so we don't know to remember). Sometimes waking up in the morning with a jolt is your astral body zipping back into the physical one in a hurry because you saw something that didn't agree with ya. It's pretty cool you've been able to remember your experience!!
Good old Dannion died... No signs of life for whatever minutes it was. He was in the afterlife realm and learned a lot of things he talks about in his books. So yeah, he died at the hospital, etc. You remember his viewing his life in the first post, right - the 360° view??? (I think they have surround sound now up there) Check out his website or the books.
Doug

Hey Doug.

Call it astral traveling or whatever you want, it is still the spirit moving temporarily out on it's own. However their is a difference in these experiences. The ones brought about by meditation or whatever that don't involve a "near death" experience seem to mostly result in some weird experience as contact with aliens from outer space or whatever. They never seem to mention getting to heaven(or Hell for that matter).

I think there is a lesson there; these "travels", real or imagined, are used by Satan to confuse and mis-direct people. He may let a few people have a more pleasant or seemingly more real experience, but he is clever. That's exactly what you would do to create confusion. More proof he is still around and making mischief.


Al

[muttdogg]

Els

Hey Al;
Read your post about ELS, I still ask what is topology? Also War and Peace was written in Russian, and if I remember correctly the English translation was used as the comparative factor.
Now it is your turn: where did you get your interpretation of hell? So far you've only quoted other sources, mainly the bible. Not your own ideas. As I said before, take a minute to reveal your own true thoughts, not others. I promise I won't tell.
Dan

[muttdogg]

John of Patmos

Hey Al;
Okay, you brought up Revelations as part of the bible. Now if there is ever a book that doesn't belong in the bible, it is Revelations. And you say the Gnostic Gospels don't belong? John of Patmos was a delusional Roman expatriate, stripped of everything by the Romans. Went to the island of Patmos, and started witing as much hateful diatribes about Rome that he could think of. 666 is the number of the beast, Nero. Not Satan. Please get your facts straight. Why this was ever included in the bible is completely beyond any comprehension, unless the infant Catholic Church wanted to show their feelings against Rome. And yes, that is a Catholic writing. Almost all of the scriptures in the New Testament are Catholic writings. Yet you oppose that sect of Christianity, but still read their writings. Isn't that what is called a dichotomy? How is that resolved? By saying, "We interpret it better!"
I hear so many times that Yeshua was an anarchist. That is the last thing he was. His whole focus was the original teaching of the Jewish Torah. The people of the time were falling into the Roman trap of money, money, and power. Straying from the original teachings of the Torah. (sorry, don't know the correct term for Torah from that time), "Let's keep these truth up to date! Can't have the maidens dating Romans! Unless I get to further in my career." Then the Catholic Church, which wrote the bible you now quote, decided to make their hero "heroic". Thus comes Revelations. Yeshua as the vanquisher of the ultimate evil. If you actually think about it instead of blindly following writings from a church you disagree with maybe you will find the truth, and at long last, the peace that Yeshua promised.
My girlfriend's family owns the piece of property on Patmos where John of Patmos wrote. What that's worth, I don't know.
Excuse the diatribe, for me Revelations is the stupidest book in the bible. There only to scare and shame peopleto giving to a, or any church, so somehow their soul can be saved
Dan

[muttdogg]

What did I see?

Hey Al;
What did I see when I "left my body'? Well, it was whatever was around me. Like I said, I didn't go to distant galaxies, learn an all knowing truth, or become Superman. I pretty much saw what was in the room I was in, as like in all of it at the same time. It might have lasted only a few seconds. But what was unmistakable was the incredible lightness of being. I know that is the name of a movie, but is as succinct a phrase as any.
There was no satan, G-D, relatives, the next Derby winner, only a state of calm. If it was a trick by satan, man, he sure picked the wrong way to do it. Opened my mind to all sorts of religiosity, just not religion. Probably made me believe in G-D even more. Also made me question the whole religion thing. I believe that is what Yeshua wanted.

Hey Doug:
There has been surround sound in the astral plane for millions of years. Sheesh, you probably think harps play there? Even though I think I heard a zither. They still use vinyl. Ever hear Ten Years After on a great turntable? Man, now that's Heaven
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al;
Okay, you brought up Revelations as part of the bible. Now if there is ever a book that doesn't belong in the bible, it is Revelations. And you say the Gnostic Gospels don't belong? John of Patmos was a delusional Roman expatriate, stripped of everything by the Romans. Went to the island of Patmos, and started witing as much hateful diatribes about Rome that he could think of. 666 is the number of the beast, Nero. Not Satan. Please get your facts straight. Why this was ever included in the bible is completely beyond any comprehension, unless the infant Catholic Church wanted to show their feelings against Rome. And yes, that is a Catholic writing. Almost all of the scriptures in the New Testament are Catholic writings. Yet you oppose that sect of Christianity, but still read their writings. Isn't that what is called a dichotomy? How is that resolved? By saying, "We interpret it better!"
I hear so many times that Yeshua was an anarchist. That is the last thing he was. His whole focus was the original teaching of the Jewish Torah. The people of the time were falling into the Roman trap of money, money, and power. Straying from the original teachings of the Torah. (sorry, don't know the correct term for Torah from that time), "Let's keep these truth up to date! Can't have the maidens dating Romans! Unless I get to further in my career." Then the Catholic Church, which wrote the bible you now quote, decided to make their hero "heroic". Thus comes Revelations. Yeshua as the vanquisher of the ultimate evil. If you actually think about it instead of blindly following writings from a church you disagree with maybe you will find the truth, and at long last, the peace that Yeshua promised.
My girlfriend's family owns the piece of property on Patmos where John of Patmos wrote. What that's worth, I don't know.
Excuse the diatribe, for me Revelations is the stupidest book in the bible. There only to scare and shame peopleto giving to a, or any church, so somehow their soul can be saved
Dan

Hey Dan;

The man you refer to as the delusional Roman expatriate John of Patmos was the Apostle John who wrote The Book of John and I, II,and III John in The New Testament. The Romans had already executed several of The Apostles for preaching and spreading Christianity. They dis-liked anyone who didn't go along with their form of multi-god paganism. They had tried to kill John several times, including boiling him in oil, but he miraculously survived, so they exiled him to Patmos.

Your idea of 666 refering to Nero is one of several put forth by non-religious groups (nothing personal intended, just refering to a group.) I think it refers to the Anti-Christ who will head the church of Rome. The Nov. 15, 1914 issue of the official Catholic publication "The Sunday Visitor" replied thusly to the question "What does the inscription in Latin on the Popes crown mean?"
"The Latin "V I C a r I V s f I L I I D e I " Means "Vicar of The Son of God". If you take the letters of his title which represent Latin numerals (typed in caps.) and add them together they come to 666."
This was nothing new. Andrew Helwig first noted the connection in 1612 in his book "The Roman Antichrist".

Revelation was included in bibles because theologians and translators using rules for what is and is not inspired writings have always decided it is.

The Catholic church did not write the K.J. bible I quote. A brief history of the two is as follows;

The Catholic bible now in use is the Douay-Rheims translation. It is a translation of a translation. It was first published in 1582 by The English College founded in 1568 in Douay, England to train priests to convert the english back to Catholicism. It was published in 1582 in Rhiems during a temporary re-location of the college. It was translated from the Latin Vulgate which was translated by St. Jerome (345-420) from Hebrew, Greek & Aramaic. The Vulgate was declared the official bible of the Catholic church at The Council of Trent.

The King James I use was largely the work of John Tyndale. He used a lot of the work of John Wyclif who produced the first complete Bible in english in 1380-1400. Both of them used The Septaugint and The Textus Receptus,written in Greek and Hebrew,as their primary source but they had others.

To quote from Sir Frederic G. Kenyon in his book "Dictionary of The English Bible" (chapter "English Versions") "The english wording of the Rheims New Testament follows closely the Protestant version first produced by William Tyndale in 1525; though the base text for the Rheim's translators appears to be the revision of Tyndale published by Miles Cloverdale in Paris in 1538."

So The K.J. Bible is not only not of Catholic origin, but the Catholic translators of the Douay-Rheim's refered to Tyndale's work to use in their version.

What Jesus taught was that he was the Messiah prophesied of in the Torah and He had come to replace their adulterated religious practices with a new covenant in His blood which required no more priesthood or animal sacrifices. That's why they plotted to have him killed. The Judeans,with a few exceptions, never adopted anything Roman except what was forced on them at spear and sword point. That's why the romans eventually destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple and dispersed the people or killed them or sold them into slavery. It was only through the power of God they survived the dispersal as a persecuted people who returned to their homeland as a nation in 1948. No other people have done this.

Yeshua is the name in Hebrew some of the Jewish people today use as the name of Jesus. Jesus is translated from the Greek and so I prefer it. As a Christian I have his peace. I also hold title to some part of the earth as I am a member of His family and He owns everything. Not being in real estate I don't know the value of your girlfriend's family's holdings on Patmos, but I think that's neat.

You ought to read Clarence Larkin's book on Revelation, then you might not think it so stupid. It's always easy to criticize or condemn what you don't understand.

Last, as I have already stated, my church does not try to scare anyone into Heaven nor do we teach they can buy their way in. It's not Christian; nor will I bear the burden of guilt for those who do.

Yours in Christ,
Al.

[muttdogg]

John

Hey Al;
As always, good arguement. Not that I consider any of it valid, But if we agreed on everything, one of us wouldn't be necessary. And therefore no discussion. I used to be one of those peolple that read everything I could get my hands on regarding the so-called end of the world. So naming certain books, or authors, I may be remiss in remembering them. Please excuse me.
I am fully aware the translations of the bible during the 15th through the present century. The translations are a big sticking point with me. Most of them are so riddled with inaccuracies, so as to be worthless. Particulary as concerns the Old Testament. Ask any Hebrew scholar how mis-interpreted the ten commandments are. Ask them how the code of Hammurabi also fits in.
Then the question may be asked, why do I care? I'll answer it as simply as possible: "That is what Yesua wanted". Using these interpretations, having the son of G-D become a superhero, to fit whatever is worth it at the time, is to put it mildly, shows the ignorance of the teachings of Yeshua. Learn what he said, put it into everyday usage, quit quoting some silly religious government. Quit making Yeshua some heathen god, that you can pray to, so you have an "in" to heaven.
Also, if John of Patmos is an apostle, you might explain what an apostle actually is. Maybe you also think Paul was an apostle. How many are there? How many will there be? Who decides? Oh, that's right the Catholic church. So, how do you reconcile that if you disagree with the Catholic church? Saying "that is how it is done," is no arguement. It is a way of never questioning what you are taught. That's right, wasn't that the message of a first century Jew, whose teachings you supposedly follow?
Please quit quoting foolish people who "know" what G-D wants. Understand what Yeshua, and his teachings, mean. Get rid of all the Pauline silliness, do some research, and find the path to..
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al;
As always, good arguement. Not that I consider any of it valid, But if we agreed on everything, one of us wouldn't be necessary. And therefore no discussion. I used to be one of those peolple that read everything I could get my hands on regarding the so-called end of the world. So naming certain books, or authors, I may be remiss in remembering them. Please excuse me.
I am fully aware the translations of the bible during the 15th through the present century. The translations are a big sticking point with me. Most of them are so riddled with inaccuracies, so as to be worthless. Particulary as concerns the Old Testament. Ask any Hebrew scholar how mis-interpreted the ten commandments are. Ask them how the code of Hammurabi also fits in.
Then the question may be asked, why do I care? I'll answer it as simply as possible: "That is what Yesua wanted". Using these interpretations, having the son of G-D become a superhero, to fit whatever is worth it at the time, is to put it mildly, shows the ignorance of the teachings of Yeshua. Learn what he said, put it into everyday usage, quit quoting some silly religious government. Quit making Yeshua some heathen god, that you can pray to, so you have an "in" to heaven.
Also, if John of Patmos is an apostle, you might explain what an apostle actually is. Maybe you also think Paul was an apostle. How many are there? How many will there be? Who decides? Oh, that's right the Catholic church. So, how do you reconcile that if you disagree with the Catholic church? Saying "that is how it is done," is no arguement. It is a way of never questioning what you are taught. That's right, wasn't that the message of a first century Jew, whose teachings you supposedly follow?
Please quit quoting foolish people who "know" what G-D wants. Understand what Yeshua, and his teachings, mean. Get rid of all the Pauline silliness, do some research, and find the path to..
Dan

Hey Dan, hope you had an enjoyable 4th.

As to what we are discussing I realize you are "hung up" on translations, but as none of us were alive when Moses or Abraham or David or Jesus was around, then all we know of them is from someone else's translations, writings and opinions unless you speak, write and understand ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Alexandrian or Koine Greek, among others. I certainly don't. Even the Jewish Rabbi's still dispute among themselves which experts are right among their own sages.
So how do we decide who is correct? We have to evaluate them according to which experts you think are the most correct just as in a legal trial. Each side has it's experts who mostly disagree with the other side's experts. That leaves you to discuss the testimony with other jury members, evaluate the evidence. Sometimes your "gut instinct" comes into play.

Well I have seen so much evidence to confirm what I believe I could type all night and barely scratch the surface. I have seen drunks accept Jesus and never touch another drop. Same with drug addicts. I know of a drug dealer who was being pursued by police and other drug dealers he had cheated. He accepted Jesus and all pursuit ceased and all charges against him were dropped. I know of a lady who went blind as a teen. She later married and had 3 children. Her family prayed for her eyes to be healed for 15 years. one day her sight began to return. In 2 weeks she could see fine, but after several expert eye doctors examined her they were astonished. They said her eyes were dead as a doornail, she couldn't possibly see. Yet she does! Jesus wants her to and answered their prayers. What's the external evidence for what you believe other than the sun comes up every morning and some people are evil?

As to the ten commandment's being mis-interpreted I have a friend of mine who is a Jewish scholar and teaches Kabala. He has no problem with jewish interpretation of them.

As to Hammurabi's code(circa 1730 b.c.) it disappeared after the Elamites carried it off in a raid and was not re-discovered until 1910, so I doubt if it had much influence except in Babylon during his reign and for awhile after his death. There were several other "code givers" in other civilazations over the centuries, his was just the first in recorded secular history. The Mosaic Law given in Exodus by God preceded it by 2000-3000 years. Since the Hebrews were wandering about in the same general area (Mesopotamia) I wonder where Hamurabbi got his ideas?

How do you know what Yeshua wanted, you weren't there when He was on earth? Since you consider all translations bogus who or what did you consult to become such an expert on what he wanted and taught? Also, what "silly religious gov't." have I quoted?

As to Apostles Webster's Dictionary says (primary meaning) one of the 12 men chosen by Christ to preach the gospel (names them, including John). After Juda's betrayal,Matthias joined them, along with Barnabas and Paul the Postle to the Gentiles.and early missionaries. (secondary useage) The 1st. to introduce Christianity in a pagan land. (third) any early or prominent member of a belief. I only use the primary meaning as to be an Apostle you had to be a witness of The Resurection and/or be called by Jesus or The Holy Spirit, although the second was also true of The 15 Apostles.You may question Paul's qualification, but as he traveled with Barnabus and Peter I think he would have been rejected by them if he was a faker.

As to your comments on the Catholic church they are specious. They have no power to declare who was or is as the qualifications prohibit anyone else from becoming one. Yes, I am aware there have been people who claim to have been called, just as there have been false messiahs and prophets. When they prove their claim by healing, casting out demons and RAISING THE DEAD without asking for money I'll believe them.

I don't know what "foolish people" you refer to, but I ask again, what infallible source or sources have you found to confer with that have made you such a great source as to what Yeshua wanted or taught?

Also, please consider this: if I am wrong in my Christian beliefs, I have lost nothing. If you are wrong you have lost everything.

Also while I may not believe what you do or the opinions you express I would defend your right to them with my life. That's the American and Christian way.

Until next time,

Al.

[muttdogg]

Logic

Hey Al;
Always good to hear from you. As far as the translations go, I am not the one quoting these "translations". You are; this is what makes this debate so lively, you quote from biblical sources, then I explain why you shouldn't. I am not the be-all, know-it-all, as far the bible is concerned, nor as to religion.
What I haven't seen is your ideas. As far as your Christian beliefs, you will lose nothing debating them with me. As far as my Christian beliefs neither will I. I am not a "born again" Christian, never lost it in the first place, only got away from the practicioners of governmental religion.
Where are your beliefs? Take away your books, take away your fear of satan, hell, and yes, heaven, and what are you left with? A G-D of love. (by the way, I use the G-D, so as not to offend any of our orthodox friends).
As to the Hamurabic code, The Hebrews were enslaved by the Persians during Hammurabi's reign, during which time they found(?) their notions of genesis, Noah, the flood, what have you. Mosaic law was a "recent" invention. These are factual relevancies, not speciuos arguements.
As far as Paul or John of Patmos goes, golly, Peter must have been, what 130 years old when they first got together? And John maybe 250 years old? Guess Peter lived a very long time, kinda like he was invincible, oh, that's right, he was crucified in Rome during the first century. So, how did they meet? Using any definition of apostle, except the twelve that accompanied Yeshua, and you wind up with what? Whatever the definers want. Stop it!
Maybe you are having a crisis of faith, I do not know, but you are not explaining your own beliefs, only books and others that agree with your beliefs in the writings you believe are true. You may always PM me, if you do not want to state publicly your misgivings. Nothing wrong with that, I have healed many before you. And as I may do in the future. But, damn it takes so much out of me. But it is always worth it.
Dan

[muttdogg]

The ten commandments

Hey Al
Also, what version of the ten commadments do you adhere to? Genesis? Deuteronomy, "E",? Maybe Exodus? How about other religions, having the same tenets? Should all not acccept other non- catholic religions because protestant religions want to have their catholic teachings become the norm?
Oh yeah that is not spoken as the truth. The truth is protestants are just another way to get the ignorant to give them fealty. otherwise why have a government?
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

The 10 Commanments.

Hey Al
Also, what version of the ten commadments do you adhere to? Genesis? Deuteronomy, "E",? Maybe Exodus? How about other religions, having the same tenets? Should all not acccept other non- catholic religions because protestant religions want to have their catholic teachings become the norm?
Oh yeah that is not spoken as the truth. The truth is protestants are just another way to get the ignorant to give them fealty. otherwise why have a government?
Dan

Hey Dan.

Don't know what you mean by "E", there are no 10 commandments in Genesis. I believe in The 10 in Deuteronomy Chapter 5, re-stated in Exodus 20 and re-quoted by Jesus in Matt.19, et. al.

Not quite sure what you asking in the rest of that, but I am an independent Baptist, not a Catholic or a Protestant (which came out of Catholicism.)

Baptist's trace our belief's directly back to John. We have been known by other names through the centuries, as Ana-baptists, Waldenses, etc. Check "Foxes Book of Martyrs" or "The Trail of Blood" for more details.

I'll respond to your previous post later. I have a good friend who was beaten up pretty badly Sat. P.M. (24 stitches in his face) that I need to tend to.

Al

[Kevin]

Hey you theologians!

I have NOT taken the time to read through all the posts in this thread...will do so soon, however, the first few posts caught my eye.

While I have no desire to argue, debate, fight over "beliefs, tenets, ethos, or interpretations" regarding the Bible or spiritual matters, I thought I would add my 2 pennies (or more).

A little levity-

There are many different English "translations" or "versions" of the Bible...two of them always bring a smile to my face.

The NIV, Not Inspired Version.

The NASB, Not Always Sure Bible.

I think there are a few more, just not remembering them right now.

On a more serious note, or at least a less frivolous note, I personally read the New International Version (NIV). I find it easy to read, and for the most part (not entirely) an accurate translation of the oldest known scripts.

As with anything so profound as the Bible (which I believe is the most published book in our history):

There are apparent contradictions. These do not bother me in the least. I am one 49 year old speck of dust in the cosmos and am not operating under the illusion that I can understand everything.

There are seemingly unrealistic requirements of humans made by the good book.

It can be hard to tell when something is written as an allegory or statement of fact.

My favorite book is Proverbs.

Even those that claim to understand all that is in between the covers cannot answer some of life's most fundamental questions.

There has probably been more destruction, lies, killings, abuse done in the name of this book than any other.

Every time I read a portion of it I see some new insight, some new "food for the soul".

My great-uncle, coined the phrase-

"Truth is the shattered mirror scattered, he who find a piece thinks he's found the whole."

There are so many thousands of facets to the "truth", that it can be very hard believing that all of them are part of the same gemstone. I believe this is at the root of much mis-understanding regarding some of what is written in the Bible.

The book is self-proclaimed to be a book of faith, therefore, attempting to read it, interpret it, accurately understand it, etc. in the absence of faith is probably similar to trying to drive a gasoline powered car without gasoline.

Anyways, I prolly have lots more thoughts, but am out of time right now. Will visit back here soon.

One thing to keep in mind when trying to understand the Bible is-

"Somebody - I can’t remember who - once said something along the lines of genius being the ability to hold two conflicting ideas at the same time. I have heard much the same said of insanity. And, so I am told, there is a fine line between them."

[muttdogg]

Friend

Hey Al;
So sorry to hear about your friend, I'm sure our prayers will be heard. With a friend like you he should heal much more peacefully.
Peace and prayers,
Dan