Bible

[muttdogg]

Insanity

Hey Kevin:
Glad to see you here! So, which one are you the genius, or the nut? Some would call Al and I either or both. A genius knows the difference, but little else, the insane know little, and little else.
Also, glad to see you are an infinitesimal speck in the universe, welcome aboard. As we specks hold out against the egos trying to rule over the universe, we hold certain truths to be self-evident. First off the rule of thumb becomes the rule of under my thumb. But I, or we become little slivers of a broken mirror jabbing incessantly into the thumb of our oppressor. Then the thumb squishes the other specks, and says, "stop them, or I will crush you all.". The other specks acquiesce, so as to avoid there own discomfort, yet relegating their eternity to more squishing, when "they" are displeased.
So, we relegate our slivers to poking each other, while not continuing to poke the Thumb. (Notice how Thumb becomes capitalized?)
Did I re-interpret your post correctly, or would you say I did a grave injustice to your words? Some would say yes, some would say no. Unfortunately to most, interpretations matter. Me? I read it all. I'm not scared of death, so I am able to laugh, love, and above all argue my points without fear of damnation.
Dan

[Kevin]

Hey Kevin:
Glad to see you here! So, which one are you the genius, or the nut? Some would call Al and I either or both. A genius knows the difference, but little else, the insane know little, and little else.
Also, glad to see you are an infinitesimal speck in the universe, welcome aboard. As we specks hold out against the egos trying to rule over the universe, we hold certain truths to be self-evident. First off the rule of thumb becomes the rule of under my thumb. But I, or we become little slivers of a broken mirror jabbing incessantly into the thumb of our oppressor. Then the thumb squishes the other specks, and says, "stop them, or I will crush you all.". The other specks acquiesce, so as to avoid there own discomfort, yet relegating their eternity to more squishing, when "they" are displeased.
So, we relegate our slivers to poking each other, while not continuing to poke the Thumb. (Notice how Thumb becomes capitalized?)
Did I re-interpret your post correctly, or would you say I did a grave injustice to your words? Some would say yes, some would say no. Unfortunately to most, interpretations matter. Me? I read it all. I'm not scared of death, so I am able to laugh, love, and above all argue my points without fear of damnation.
Dan

I like how Thumb ended up capitalized.

bbl

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al;
So sorry to hear about your friend, I'm sure our prayers will be heard. With a friend like you he should heal much more peacefully.
Peace and prayers,
Dan

Dan;

Thanks for the prayerful support. My friend Jon is much better today, though still stiff & in some pain. Please continue to pray for him.

Thanks,

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Kevin:
Glad to see you here! So, which one are you the genius, or the nut? Some would call Al and I either or both. A genius knows the difference, but little else, the insane know little, and little else.
Also, glad to see you are an infinitesimal speck in the universe, welcome aboard. As we specks hold out against the egos trying to rule over the universe, we hold certain truths to be self-evident. First off the rule of thumb becomes the rule of under my thumb. But I, or we become little slivers of a broken mirror jabbing incessantly into the thumb of our oppressor. Then the thumb squishes the other specks, and says, "stop them, or I will crush you all.". The other specks acquiesce, so as to avoid there own discomfort, yet relegating their eternity to more squishing, when "they" are displeased.
So, we relegate our slivers to poking each other, while not continuing to poke the Thumb. (Notice how Thumb becomes capitalized?)
Did I re-interpret your post correctly, or would you say I did a grave injustice to your words? Some would say yes, some would say no. Unfortunately to most, interpretations matter. Me? I read it all. I'm not scared of death, so I am able to laugh, love, and above all argue my points without fear of damnation.
Dan

Hi Dan.

Glad we can continue our discussion with some additional commenters.

As to your remarks on "the thumb" while humorous (and full of topological meanings-lol)it's obvious you have a predudice bordering on obsession with anything resembling an organized government or religion.I guess you consider yourself a "free thinker"; an Hippie of the New Millineum (whatever happened to them?).
Unfortunately without some organization you have chaos and/or anarchy. That's why Jesus never avocated an overthrow of the Roman government, even though it was one of the most corrupt and evil in the history of the world.It's the mis-use of authority that's the problem.
In this country the reality is the Constitution has been re-interpreted 180 degrees in most points and the current government structure bears little resemblance to what the founders intended.As to religion if you read the constitution it is clear it was designed to protect religion from the government, not the other way around as we are taught today.Indeed most of the founders did not believe you could separate Christian values and beliefs from the government and have it remain effective.You will not find the phrase "separation of church and state" in the constitution. That was started in the late 1800's by by a newspaper owner( Thomas Nast I believe was his name) and author. He was an early proponent of the human secularism that has re-made government and the thinking in this country since then and brought us to the materialistic society we live in today. Unfortunatly the Christians slowly relinquished their rights under the onslaught from these people for nearly 100 years.Finally we are reversing the oppression from "The Thumb" the only peaceful way possible; by banding together to reform the legal system, elect leaders we feel are really led by God, and praying for His divine leadership to accomplish our goals.If we don't band together "The Thumb" can resist the discomfort of the individual splinters poking it. It's like trying to teach a hog to sing; you get tired and aggravated due to lack of success while the hog gets annoyed from the "poking " and tries to kill you.
Regarding "the infinitesimal speck in the universe" you really should read Hugh Ross's book as he sums it up the best I know of. After giving all the scientific evidence and proof (as we currently know it) of how and why things are as they are in the universe, and none of it would exist without all of it, he sums it up thusly; "God loves us so much he went to all the trouble to create the entire universe so we would have a nice place to live."
Humbling and majestic isn't it.
So keep thinking about those "interpretations" He still loves you.

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey you theologians!

I have NOT taken the time to read through all the posts in this thread...will do so soon, however, the first few posts caught my eye.

While I have no desire to argue, debate, fight over "beliefs, tenets, ethos, or interpretations" regarding the Bible or spiritual matters, I thought I would add my 2 pennies (or more).

A little levity-

There are many different English "translations" or "versions" of the Bible...two of them always bring a smile to my face.

The NIV, Not Inspired Version.

The NASB, Not Always Sure Bible.

I think there are a few more, just not remembering them right now.

On a more serious note, or at least a less frivolous note, I personally read the New International Version (NIV). I find it easy to read, and for the most part (not entirely) an accurate translation of the oldest known scripts.

As with anything so profound as the Bible (which I believe is the most published book in our history):

There are apparent contradictions. These do not bother me in the least. I am one 49 year old speck of dust in the cosmos and am not operating under the illusion that I can understand everything.

There are seemingly unrealistic requirements of humans made by the good book.

It can be hard to tell when something is written as an allegory or statement of fact.

My favorite book is Proverbs.

Even those that claim to understand all that is in between the covers cannot answer some of life's most fundamental questions.

There has probably been more destruction, lies, killings, abuse done in the name of this book than any other.

Every time I read a portion of it I see some new insight, some new "food for the soul".

My great-uncle, coined the phrase-

"Truth is the shattered mirror scattered, he who find a piece thinks he's found the whole."

There are so many thousands of facets to the "truth", that it can be very hard believing that all of them are part of the same gemstone. I believe this is at the root of much mis-understanding regarding some of what is written in the Bible.

The book is self-proclaimed to be a book of faith, therefore, attempting to read it, interpret it, accurately understand it, etc. in the absence of faith is probably similar to trying to drive a gasoline powered car without gasoline.

Anyways, I prolly have lots more thoughts, but am out of time right now. Will visit back here soon.

One thing to keep in mind when trying to understand the Bible is-

"Somebody - I can’t remember who - once said something along the lines of genius being the ability to hold two conflicting ideas at the same time. I have heard much the same said of insanity. And, so I am told, there is a fine line between them."

Hey Kevin!

I'm also glad you're aboard, the more the merrier. Loved the levity about the N.I.V. and N.A.S.B. and your comments on the N.I.V.
You might try reading the Schofield Reference Edition of The King James Bible. His notes are very enlighting and contribute to overall knowledge of the Bible. Also try The Amplified Bible and the Greek-English Interlinear New Testament. The first inserts all possible meanings of the Greek Or Hebrew in brackets as you go and the second shows the King James on a line with the literal Greek on a line directly below without the words the King James interpreters added for clarity and continuity. Between the three you get a realy clear picture of the real intent of the writers.
I think from your comments you have a good grasp of most of the Bible. We are not meant to understand it all and of course we as humans don't have the mental capacity to under stand all things, much less some parts that were meant to be "a mystery". But as you say without faith you cannot understand any of it except you need to have faith, ask for forgiveness and be "born again". Then you will understand a lot more.The Old Testament points to that and the purpose of the New Testament is to show you how and how to live afterwards.

I look forward to your comments.

Al

[muttdogg]

Organization

Hey Al,
First of all, glad to hear your friend is doing well. And I'm sure he is welcome to have a friend like you.
Now on to anarchy. I, personally do not believe in organized religion, not to say it doesn't work for others, just seems to be an anachronism from when most couldn't read. Had to have someome from on high to explain the world: and most of those on high were greedy, power hungry *******s using whichever god was to their liking, to get the masses to do their bidding. Of course there are still those in government and religion continuing to do it as of today.
Strangely, to most I have talked to, I believe government is necessary.
As devoid of religion as possible. Now one may think, "our government was based on certain religious principles." Yes, that is correct, yet they felt it necessary to write only, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,...." Pretty much nothing else. So, why? I do not pretend to know their minds. Yet it would seem to they saw the danger of a government controlled religion. Or, conversely, a religion controlled government. (Almost what we have now, on both sides of the aisle. The religious right on one side, the pagans on the other.) Hopefully that doesn't create a whole new debate.
Al, you seem to think, based on what you last posted, that I "favor" anarchy. Quite the opposite, I favor the representational form of government, and the constitutional republic formed by the founding fathers of the USA. Minus the religion.
Also Al, do you think I am trying to change your beliefs? Or you will show me the path others have failed at? No. This back and forth discussion is my idea of religion, if you want to call it religion. One on one. Not from some jerk-o dressed in a gaudy outfit surrounded by accolytes, on some stage paid for by the people that they are supposedly trying to save. As a communal meeting place, no problem, but as a place where one, or a group of one, plunders the ideas of a group, no.
As always, keep up your faith, as I keep up mine.
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
First of all, glad to hear your friend is doing well. And I'm sure he is welcome to have a friend like you.
Now on to anarchy. I, personally do not believe in organized religion, not to say it doesn't work for others, just seems to be an anachronism from when most couldn't read. Had to have someome from on high to explain the world: and most of those on high were greedy, power hungry *******s using whichever god was to their liking, to get the masses to do their bidding. Of course there are still those in government and religion continuing to do it as of today.
Strangely, to most I have talked to, I believe government is necessary.
As devoid of religion as possible. Now one may think, "our government was based on certain religious principles." Yes, that is correct, yet they felt it necessary to write only, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,...." Pretty much nothing else. So, why? I do not pretend to know their minds. Yet it would seem to they saw the danger of a government controlled religion. Or, conversely, a religion controlled government. (Almost what we have now, on both sides of the aisle. The religious right on one side, the pagans on the other.) Hopefully that doesn't create a whole new debate.
Al, you seem to think, based on what you last posted, that I "favor" anarchy. Quite the opposite, I favor the representational form of government, and the constitutional republic formed by the founding fathers of the USA. Minus the religion.
Also Al, do you think I am trying to change your beliefs? Or you will show me the path others have failed at? No. This back and forth discussion is my idea of religion, if you want to call it religion. One on one. Not from some jerk-o dressed in a gaudy outfit surrounded by accolytes, on some stage paid for by the people that they are supposedly trying to save. As a communal meeting place, no problem, but as a place where one, or a group of one, plunders the ideas of a group, no.
As always, keep up your faith, as I keep up mine.
Dan

Hi Dan.

Thanks for your concern for my friend Jon and your prayers. Please continue to pray for him as, while he is better, he still has a ways to go and could have some serious complications in his left eye and hand.

As you put it "Strangely" I agree with most of what you say here(WOW, somebody hold Dan up!)ROFL!.

As to organized religion you have pretty much described the heirarchy of the Catholic church. And yes I rag on them a lot as they have been the primary persecutors of the Baptist Christians for centuries.
Here's an example from their own records. From Cardinal Hosius, President of the Council of Trent(1524 A.D.)"Were it not that the Baptists have been grieviously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past 1200 years , they would swarm in greater numbers than all the reformers".(Hosius leters, Apud Opera, pages 112, 113.)( I wonder why they would outnumber the other religions if they had not been persecuted and killed off with such fervor?.Hmmm?) Sir Isaac Newton wrote "The Baptists are the only body of known Christians that have never symbolized with Rome." The 1st Council of Nicea(325 A.D.) was the beginning of the formal Catholic Church, headed by Constantine I. Baptists trace their origin back to John The Baptist and Jesus.

I think you grasp why the constitution was written as it was concerning religious freedom. That's why we still have it in spite of the current attempts of organizations like the A.C.L.U to remove all traces of Christianity and references to God from our country. At one time some of their more rabid supporters even tried to introduce a bill in Congress to have the phrase "IN GOD WE TRUST" chiseled out of the floor of the capital rotunda!
The founders wanted a country where they could worship as each person saw fit without interference or persecution from the government or any government office or official. But they also thought that government officials should be Christians so as to have the wisdom, moral character and honesty enbodied in that religion and God (through prayer) to guide them.
If you wish to know what they thought go to the website "Wallbuilders.com".
David Barton has gathered the greatest collection of documents, etc. on the real history of America, much of which has been expunged from our textbooks. His books and some of the writings of the founders are also available at some libraries, esp. university libraries.
Just a couple of examples: In 1796 John Adams writing against Thomas Paine's Deist phamphlets said "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed, in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will." In 1813 he wrote in a letter to Thomas Jefferson "The Ten Commandments and The Sermon on the Mount contain my religion." In another to Jefferson he wrote "My Adoration of The Author of The Universe is too profound and too sincere. The love of God and His Creation ; delight, joy, triumph, exultation in my own existence, though but an atom, a molecule organic in the universe, are my religion."(sound familiar?)
Thomas Jefferson, after writing the Constitution, said his model for it was the services he attended at a Baptist church as the way things were done there "was the best form of democracy he had seen." Twice in his lifetime he took a red letter edition of The King James Bible, cut all the red letter words of Jesus out and pasted them to sheets of paper in order so that the words in between were omitted. He gave them to a printer to publish and have them distributed to the indians so they could read the words of Jesus in unbroken form.
Also the First Continental Congress had 20,000 K.J. Bibles printed and distributed to the indians. Their stated intention was to bring the Gospel of Christ to the indians so their souls might be saved. They did it through missionaries, not at gun or spearpoint or torture as they believed the profession of faith in Jesus should come voluntarily, not through coercion.

I am not trying to start a debate here, just give some insight into what the founders of the republic thought through some examples, since you seemed interested.

I consider our back and forth as a discussion of differing religious viewpoints which I also enjoy. Whether or not it causes you to change any of yours is up to you, I merely present my position or beliefs as I see them. Sometimes I cite sources to support them or illustrate where I got them or that, say, my historical facts are correct. I will admit to a certain hope that something I present will cause you to re-evaluate some of your positions, but if not I have done my Christian duty to try and will be held blameless before God in this instance. I have enough other stuff to regret as it is.

Talk about coincidence, I am watching one of those "Jerk-o's" in Lakeland, Fl. It's a report on Nightline that just came on. If any of these poor fools are healed, it's through their faith and the Holy Spirit honoring it, not through this clown running around "anointing" people with a wet rag. Makes me want to puke. People like him give Christianity a bad name.

Here's something we can debate or discuss. Since you don't hold with the New Testament translations, and since Jesus's (or Yahwey as you prefer) life and teachings are recorded there, what do you believe he taught and where do you get the info. you base that on?

Until next time,

Al.

[muttdogg]

Hold me up!

He3y Al.
Tried to read your post three times, Couldn't stop laughing. Yeah, loved that comment about hold me in my chair! When I can get past that I will post again. Now that was funny!
Dan

[muttdogg]

So many thoughts.

Hey Al,
So many thoughts so little time, It's Yeshua, not YAHWEH, which is a misinterpretation of Yehovah. Yehovah is G-D's name, Jesus is the Greek interpretation of the Saviour, Yeshua. Just to clear that up.
As to where I learned about Yeshua's ideas, dump all the Greco-Roman godly ideas of a good man. Get rid of Paul, that in all foolishness has been "claimed" an apostle. Get rid of John of Patmos, the writer who hated a government so much, as to write a delusional account of hell on earth. Get rid of all your foolish ideas, that somehow you can be of this earth, this idiotic group of writings, which have little historical truth, and be part of a G-D that loves you. Read the gnostic gospels, (hey, how about the gospel of Yeshua?) Understand why they were not included. Not that they were not included because that was not the way it was.
Big Al, you are so sure of the way it has been presented to you, you have not ever looked at what may be. You may rail against what I just said, but, no you haven't. And you should, without a doubt. Of course doubt is what John of Patmos said would be the undoing of the pious. Which is Christ, and which is the Anti-Christ? I see no way you would not recognise Christ, as opposed to the devil. So is it blather, or truth?
Now, as to what I believe. Just told you, or do I have to explain again? Get rid of the baggage your religion forces upon you, no matter how small you think it is. Open your mind to what Yeshua taught. Get rid of your books that say the date, year, which persons were involved. Does it really matter if one is able to quote certain passages of the bible, or references to any other book? Why would any god care what 10% of the population thinks?
I have asked you many times what your beliefs are, yet you keep quoting the bible. Or other sources supporting the biblical quotes you refer.
Are Baptist more prone to get into heaven, well show your source, we'll all adhere to that religion, simple as that. As you know, it isn't that simple. Please admit it to yourself, not anyone else. We are all, in our own simplistic way, trying to divine what it takes to be able to avoid some kind of eternal damnation foisted upon us by our parents, some stupid religion, priest, minister, deacon, what have you. When what we should be doing is trying to be human as possible to each other, as Yeshua tried to teach . Bible quoting, (or thumping), shows a certain lack of neighborliness. Those neighbors are our friends. Shouldn't they have the resources that certain religions posess? Or should they, because of their adherence to some "other" be damned to a hell far from your godly religion? Don't know the quote? Damn you! Kid sick, can't make it to church? Damn you! Don;t like what the (........fill in the blank.....) said. Damn you.
So?
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
So many thoughts so little time, It's Yeshua, not YAHWEH, which is a misinterpretation of Yehovah. Yehovah is G-D's name, Jesus is the Greek interpretation of the Saviour, Yeshua. Just to clear that up.
As to where I learned about Yeshua's ideas, dump all the Greco-Roman godly ideas of a good man. Get rid of Paul, that in all foolishness has been "claimed" an apostle. Get rid of John of Patmos, the writer who hated a government so much, as to write a delusional account of hell on earth. Get rid of all your foolish ideas, that somehow you can be of this earth, this idiotic group of writings, which have little historical truth, and be part of a G-D that loves you. Read the gnostic gospels, (hey, how about the gospel of Yeshua?) Understand why they were not included. Not that they were not included because that was not the way it was.
Big Al, you are so sure of the way it has been presented to you, you have not ever looked at what may be. You may rail against what I just said, but, no you haven't. And you should, without a doubt. Of course doubt is what John of Patmos said would be the undoing of the pious. Which is Christ, and which is the Anti-Christ? I see no way you would not recognise Christ, as opposed to the devil. So is it blather, or truth?
Now, as to what I believe. Just told you, or do I have to explain again? Get rid of the baggage your religion forces upon you, no matter how small you think it is. Open your mind to what Yeshua taught. Get rid of your books that say the date, year, which persons were involved. Does it really matter if one is able to quote certain passages of the bible, or references to any other book? Why would any god care what 10% of the population thinks?
I have asked you many times what your beliefs are, yet you keep quoting the bible. Or other sources supporting the biblical quotes you refer.
Are Baptist more prone to get into heaven, well show your source, we'll all adhere to that religion, simple as that. As you know, it isn't that simple. Please admit it to yourself, not anyone else. We are all, in our own simplistic way, trying to divine what it takes to be able to avoid some kind of eternal damnation foisted upon us by our parents, some stupid religion, priest, minister, deacon, what have you. When what we should be doing is trying to be human as possible to each other, as Yeshua tried to teach . Bible quoting, (or thumping), shows a certain lack of neighborliness. Those neighbors are our friends. Shouldn't they have the resources that certain religions posess? Or should they, because of their adherence to some "other" be damned to a hell far from your godly religion? Don't know the quote? Damn you! Kid sick, can't make it to church? Damn you! Don;t like what the (........fill in the blank.....) said. Damn you.
So?
Dan

Hi Dan, glad you enjoyed my comment so much.

Yes, so many thoughts so little time, so instead of answering every point in your rant I'll just say this; you have once again avoided an answer as to what you believe, except to some vagaries about the gnostic gospels, a God who loves you, and you have somehow pulled information on this God out of the air.

In case you haven't noticed I have not quoted a bible verse in some time as I know you, in your disbelief of all translations, you would ignore them.

Apparently you also don't believe any other commentators of any age, nor any historical facts. So what does that leave you to formulate a belief or an opinion? I repeat,where specifically did you get your information about Yeshua? What exactly are your beliefs about what he taught?

I thought it was abundantly clear what I believe, but here it is precisely;I believe Jesus was and is the Son Of God, that he died on the cross for my sins, rose on the 3rd. day, appeared to the apostles in a locked, shuttered room and so changed them by that appearance they went from a cowering, scared group hiding from the Romans to an empowered bunch of evangelists that went forth with His help and protection and spread His Gospel of salvation and love to the whole world. Further that you must accept His death on the cross as paying for your personal sins, not just the sins of the world in general, and you must repent of your sin and accept the gift of salvation He so freely offers. This is what Jesus referred to as being "born again", giving you a new nature to replace your old, sinful one which God will never accept.You also receive the gift of The Holy Spirit at that instant to help guide you through life. Otherwise, you will wind up in Hell as you have rejected the sacrifice of The Son of The Holy God and instead chosen that penalty.(How much more love could he show you than to die for you before you were even born?) Further He showed by example that you should be Baptized as a sign to the world that you are a Christian, and you should observe the Lord's Supper often to remember him. Any more questions as to what I believe? Is that specific enough?

Let me add that I did not come by these beliefs blindly, as you seem to think, nor did I acquire them out of thin air. I also did not acquire them in a vacuum nor were they forced on me. I looked at the world around me, both as to nature and as to people, I read many books of many types, I thought, I reasoned , and finally I decided that the beliefs I have just stated are the basis and only explanation for how everything is and works, especially people and the good or evil they do.

Finally any time you wish to specifically discuss Baptists, the Anti-christ,the gnostic gospels, or how to treat your neighbors("Love thy neighbor as thyself", the words of Jesus in Matt. 22:39. Oops, I slipped, but how could that be correct as it is in that terribly inaccurate King James Bible?) just ask.

I look forward to your response.

Al.

[Ingram]

Hello ANTIQUER,

I would like to submit a query for your point of veiw.

That he died on the cross for my sins,

When you say your sins, are you referring to sins pertaining to the ten commandments?

Further that you must accept His death on the cross as paying for your personal sins, not just the sins of the world in general,

Assuming the answer above is yes, are you suggesting the actions of others as pertaining to the same by this phraseology?

Christian theology has it that the physical world and all lifeforms with the exception of humankind are incapable of sin. If you do not hold that to be the case please explain how that is possible.

you must repent of your sin and accept the gift of salvation He so freely offers. This is what Jesus referred to as being "born again", giving you a new nature to replace your old, sinful one which God will never accept.You also receive the gift of The Holy Spirit at that instant to help guide you through life. Otherwise, you will wind up in Hell as you have rejected the sacrifice of The Son of The Holy God and instead chosen that penalty

An often repeated question here, if one is not "born again" one goes to hell?

Further He showed by example that you should be Baptized as a sign to the world that you are a Christian, and you should observe the Lord's Supper often to remember him.

It seems that you follow the Baptist faith. According to your faith is this a prerequisite to being born again?


Thanks for your thoughts

[ANTIQUER]

Hello ANTIQUER,

I would like to submit a query for your point of veiw.



When you say your sins, are you referring to sins pertaining to the ten commandments?




Assuming the answer above is yes, are you suggesting the actions of others as pertaining to the same by this phraseology?

Christian theology has it that the physical world and all lifeforms with the exception of humankind are incapable of sin. If you do not hold that to be the case please explain how that is possible.





An often repeated question here, if one is not "born again" one goes to hell?




It seems that you follow the Baptist faith. According to your faith is this a prerequisite to being born again?


Thanks for your thoughts

Hi Ingram.

Sin refers to both the sin nature you inherited from Adam that you are born with and any personal sins you have commited, such as are listed in The 10 Commandments. As I am sure you know God told Adam and Eve the day they ate from The Tree Of Knowledge they would die. As they obviously did not die physically, they only died spiritually and were thrown out of The Garden of Eden(cut off from God who had been their companion until then) because of their disobedience. From that you can form a general description of sin as anything that comes between you and God. By their sin all mankind was cut off from God and the curse applied to all their generations. The only current way to be reconciled to God is through Jesus. That's why He is called The Mediator in The New Testament.

Of course plants and animals are incapable of sin. They have no soul. Man is unique in that after God created all else, He created Adam and breathed the breath of life diectly into his nostrils"and he became a living soul."(Gen. 2:7).

As to Hell yes, I believe any un-saved person goes to Hell. The Old Testament calls them unrightous or unjust or ungodly among other things so Hell is hardly a new concept or idea. The prerequisite for staying out of there has just been made simpler and easier to understand because of Jesus's sacrifice.



Yes I am a Baptist(Independent). It's the other way around, salvation(being born again) comes first, then Baptism, as I explained in my previos post to Dan(Muttdog.) Baptism has no meaning before that nor when you were an infant. That's why Baptist's have always taught you should be Baptized again even if you were previous to salvation. We dedicate infants to The Lord and pray God to bless, guide and protect them until they are old enough to reason. That varies with the individual. I have known children as young as 5 who accepted Jesus and it became obvious they understood as their life reflected it.

I know my answers will raise more questions as I have tried to keep them short and simple. I am always glad to discuss any further questions as God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth", part of I Timothy 2:3-6.

Al.

[muttdogg]

Baptists

Hey Al,
First of all, I do not mean any disrespect to any Baptists. Every one that adheres to any religion, is none of my business. Also, I forgot to pray for your budedy Jon last night, But I did pray for him today, so I hope that helps.
I am not very good at importing previous posts, so I beg your pardon.
If you look at my previous post, look at the second paragraph. Take away the heroic, dead rising, walking on water, Paul, or any other writer masquerading as a contemporary of Yeshua. You will,hopefully understand my viewpoint. You get my catholic idea of Yeshua. And yes that, and all bibles are catholic. Look it up.
Yes, you have finally shown me your views. It is appreciated.
So, with that said, heaven must be lonely place, since only ten percent of the world's population adheres to the standards you state. Heck, maybe only 1 percent. Guess you believe in the vengeful G-D, not the G-D Yeshua preached. "All may get into heaven if you follow me." Can't really see A Son of G-D damning all to hell because his ego was so great That "only through me shall you see," deliverance. Follow is the key. Not be. We are human, as was he. You know better. If you don't, may G-D help you.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
First of all, I do not mean any disrespect to any Baptists. Every one that adheres to any religion, is none of my business. Also, I forgot to pray for your budedy Jon last night, But I did pray for him today, so I hope that helps.
I am not very good at importing previous posts, so I beg your pardon.
If you look at my previous post, look at the second paragraph. Take away the heroic, dead rising, walking on water, Paul, or any other writer masquerading as a contemporary of Yeshua. You will,hopefully understand my viewpoint. You get my catholic idea of Yeshua. And yes that, and all bibles are catholic. Look it up.
Yes, you have finally shown me your views. It is appreciated.
So, with that said, heaven must be lonely place, since only ten percent of the world's population adheres to the standards you state. Heck, maybe only 1 percent. Guess you believe in the vengeful G-D, not the G-D Yeshua preached. "All may get into heaven if you follow me." Can't really see A Son of G-D damning all to hell because his ego was so great That "only through me shall you see," deliverance. Follow is the key. Not be. We are human, as was he. You know better. If you don't, may G-D help you.

Hi Dan.
Thanks for your continued prayers for Jon. He is doing much better thanks to prayers and some Chinese herbs he is familiar with. Looks like he will have no further complications.
I'm not sure why you are having trouble "importing" previous posts as when I click on "Bible" on the main forum page all our posts come up. I just scroll down to see them all or go back to the previous page.
You need to look back a couple of posts as I already showed where the K.J. bible I use came from and where the Catholic (Douaney-Rheems) bible came from. The K.J.B. was never a Catholic bible. If you have any source to disprove what I posted I would like to see it. I do not post as fact anything I am not historically sure of on that subject.

I do understand your viewpoint to a certain degree. But I do not understand "the catholic viewpoint of Yeshua" comment as the Roman Catholic Church refers to Him as Jesus, not Yeshua. I have the Official Liturgy of the Catholic Burial Rite and Mass of Requiem, for example, where they repeatedly use Jesus or Lord. Never Yeshua. So I ask again what do you base your beliefs on and what are they exactly? Where does "All may get into Heaven if they follow me" come from specifically?
I also think, judging from your postings which show a total abhorence of organized religion in general and catholicism in particular, that you had some bad experiences to do with them at an early age. That may be what turned you to reading and apparently believing such things as the gnostic gospels.
In any event you are, of course, free to believe as you will. But I am also free to hope, as I mentioned earlier, that some of our discussions will cause you to re-evaluate some of your beliefs/opinions. Many do as they get older and more experienced and the wiser for it.

As to how many people believe in Jesus as their savior and He and He alone is the way to reconcile with God and go to heaven I know of no list giving the number, but I am sure it is millions more than you think. The secular media does not report on anything to do with religion unless it concerns the catholic church (isn't that strange) but I know of many sources which report hundreds of thounds of new Christians every month. Many have to hide their faith due to fear of persecution, as in Russia, China, Cuba and most Muslim countries. I will give only one example in order to keep this short.
When the iron curtain came down, my church and many others with us (uh-oh, organization) immediately began to work in aiding the people of Albania which had declared itself "the most perfectly communistic country in the world in the 1960's." They razed or converted every church building in the country. Yet we discovered over 1200 underground churches which immediately began asking for more pastors, bibles, etc.We got a huge (3 flat- bed semi's huge) newspaper press a large
Miami newspaper wasn't using and shipped it to the capital (Tirana) to print school books, government material and Bibles and Sunday school lessons on. They even asked to insert Sunday school material in the school books! (never saw that mentioned in any newspaper).
As to Jesus and his humanity, that is a whole posting in itself. He was and is THE Son Of God who became human as we are for 33 years. I'll leave anything else as to who He was and is to a separate discussion, but answer me this: if He did not believe that people can and do go to Hell, and it is a real place of torment, then why did he come and die a cruel, uncontested death on the cross? The Hebrews had 3000 years of records telling them how God wanted them live to enable them to atone for their sin and come back to Him after death, why not just leave it at that?

Looking forward to your answers and our next discussion, as always.

Al

[Samemf]

hmmm
religion is interesting i think especially comparitive religion ,

From my reading of the bible I come out with alot of questions like

* mathew mark luke and and john of the new testoment have no last name ?
and none of these authors ever met with jesus or wrote anything during his life time and no none of them were deciples of jesus , I investigated this and asked many priests , and the best answer I got was that they were unknowns and all the priests I asked agreed that none were deciples which alot of my christian friends thought these authors were ...

* The trinity did not exist in jesus 's lifetime , the firsttime the trinity appreared was three hundred years after jesus left at the council nicea in jerusalem "the council of bishops" where they were debating the topic "who was jesus" and thats the first time it ever appeared ....

* The bible in fact is NOT the word of god (new testoment that is) , its actually a story book about jesus's life ie jesus slept , or jesus ate or jesus went to such a place and preached the gospel etc.. so its actually like a biography of jesus 's life and not in fact a revelation from god in the sense .

The revelation would be the gospel that jesus preached !


* jesus in the bible killed two thousand pigs and forbid the flesh of swine , he didnt eat it and he forbid the people from eating it ? Yet all my friends love it (lol)

* when jesus is performing miracles ie , curing the blind, lepars , making a bird of clay and blowing into it and it flys a real bird , water to wine etc..
his deciples say master how do you these things which he replies " i by myself can do NOTHING without the father in heaven , all power is given unto me Glory be to God for giving such power Unto MEN!

this i found interesting and this explains moses opening the sea and the other miricales of prophets before them

* the bible mentions many many places where jesus fell to the ground and prayed to god (not to himslef) and also like when a women grabs his garment and says "oh good master" he rips the garment away and says " why thoust call me good when no one is good but the one in heaven "

he didnt even want to be called good let alone be worshipped as a god , he himself prayed to god and is refered as the son of mary .

* bible also mentions that jesus said I have not come except unto the lost sheep of isreal , Dont send my message to the gentiles or the semaritans , (dont take my message to them)

*jesus according the bible always preaches The lord thy god is one , the king of the unverse , the owner , the sustainer etc ... and never ever claims to be himself a god , but a worshipper of god and teachers his diciples and his followeres how to worship god and not him .

Yet some christians worship him as a god , I have a muslim friend and he told me that their prophet mohammad said , "do not do to me as the christians did to jesus , he was a mighty prohet of god , a warner and a sign unto mankind , but they took him as a god and worshipped him instead of god.

"he also said a verse from the koran which says " the similtude of jesus is the similitude of adam , adam had no mother of father which is a better miricale ?

and " oh people of the book jesus and his mother ate food , dont attribute this to a god "

and
"they attribute to me a Son ! , high am I above what the attribute to me , if I were to have a Son , I would have chosen an angel that is a better creation "


anyways like I said its all very interesting , Im now starting to study the koran , the first two chapters Iv finished thus far ....

But I can see thus far the universal message of all the prophets is identical

The lord thy god is one , donot attribute partners with god , or worship any other dieties etc..

And if I were to take anything from te bible I would take jesus's example , ie doing good , being humble , right from wrong , charity etc ...


whats also very interesting is the prayer that jesus taught , he taught the deciples this prayer and also us in the sense .

Oh our father ( OUR FATHER not my father) who art in heaven , Hellow be thy name (NOT my name) thy kindingtom (no my kingdingtom) give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our tresspasses , for thy is the kingdom , and thy is the glory for ever and ever amen ( erm that was by memory not proper quote)

peace
Sam