Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

[Ingram]

An excellent article outlining the modus operandi of the right.

What will you do?


Naomi Wolf: Fascist America, in 10 easy steps | World news | The Guardian

YouTube - Talk by Naomi Wolf - The End of America "The end of America"

[jibbguy]

Great article and find

I would agree with all of that except the priority of a "controlled press".

Having a wholly controlled and suppressing media is the FIRST and FOREMOST prerequisite to creating a fascist state. They can't get away with any of the other things until that is done. Do we have that now?

> The treatment of Kucinich and Ron Paul in the early primaries... Where they were blacklisted to a point where when Dr. Paul came in second in 2 primaries THEY WOULD NOT EVEN SHOW HIS NAME ON THE SCREEN!! There is positive evidence of this; the one thing they cannot hide are suppressions. For a period of 7 weeks, the media NEVER mentioned Kucinich's name in print unless the term "UFO" was in the same sentence (thats a fact & i have proof of this with over 15 articles saved, lol). He was kept out of debates on phony reasons and NBC even sited their "first amendment rights" in court to keep him out... In that case all of the Nevada Supreme Court Justices met within 1 day of getting the call for an "emergency" session (they were all on vacation at the time). NBC sure gets the grease ... Where the Supremes then reversed the Circuit Judge's ruling that NBC had to include Kucinich, or the televised debate be called off. Similar blackouts in debates happened to Ron Paul.. Both Kucinich and Paul won the public polls after every one of the early Debates they were in.... Can't have that lol.

> The blacking-out of anything having to do with Sibel Edmonds' (google her).

> The failure to report the millions-strong anti-war movement, where i was personally at an anti-war rally in Philly in 2002 where there were over 200k people, and the news never even reported it, and blamed the Sunday miles-long traffic jam on I-95 on a "truck accident" lol. A bald-faced lie repeated on 3 local news networks; none of which reported the downtown rally even existed. This same kind of thing happened all over the country at that same time period and ever since.

> The failure to report on Impeachment: Not even when 35 well-documented Articles of Impeachment against the bush regime are read publicly in Congress last month. One of them even stating that the CIA is now paying and arming terrorists to make attacks in Iran that kill innocent civilians in order to start a war. This is criminal activity on the part of the media: Some day, some time... There will be mainstream corporate news media executives going to jail over this for Treason.

> The failure to report on any of the 911 Truth evidence and movement; or that several Ministers and Parliament members of other countries have publicly called for new investigations on this... Many of them actually using evidence from their own intelligence agencies to accuse the CIA and bush regime of involvement in it as a "false flag" operation (as seen in Germany, Japan, UK, France, Italy, and other U.S. "allies").

There are dozens, or even hundreds of examples of important stories being ignored or suppressed... The rule of thumb is if it damaging to the bush regime, or risks opening up other truths, it is either heavily spun with a dis'ing campaign using straw-man and ad hominem attack against the whistle-blowers/truth tellers (...including the use of paid shills commenting on the Interent, which i also have proof of), or completely ignored (the most common tactic).

We in the U.S. have controlled media NOW... And this is THE ONLY reason they can get away with all the other crud they are pulling. So if we want to unravel this mess, and start making solutions: This is what must change first.

There are some very good ideas on just how to do this, but there's no reason to let them know about them yet

[ANTIQUER]

I would agree with all of that except the priority of a "controlled press".

Having a wholly controlled and suppressing media is the FIRST and FOREMOST prerequisite to creating a fascist state. They can't get away with any of the other things until that is done. Do we have that now?

> The treatment of Kucinich and Ron Paul in the early primaries... Where they were blacklisted to a point where when Dr. Paul came in second in 2 primaries THEY WOULD NOT EVEN SHOW HIS NAME ON THE SCREEN!! There is positive evidence of this; the one thing they cannot hide are suppressions. For a period of 7 weeks, the media NEVER mentioned Kucinich's name in print unless the term "UFO" was in the same sentence (thats a fact & i have proof of this with over 15 articles saved, lol). He was kept out of debates on phony reasons and NBC even sited their "first amendment rights" in court to keep him out... In that case all of the Nevada Supreme Court Justices met within 1 day of getting the call for an "emergency" session (they were all on vacation at the time). NBC sure gets the grease ... Where the Supremes then reversed the Circuit Judge's ruling that NBC had to include Kucinich, or the televised debate be called off. Similar blackouts in debates happened to Ron Paul.. Both Kucinich and Paul won the public polls after every one of the early Debates they were in.... Can't have that lol.

> The blacking-out of anything having to do with Sibel Edmonds' (google her).

> The failure to report the millions-strong anti-war movement, where i was personally at an anti-war rally in Philly in 2002 where there were over 200k people, and the news never even reported it, and blamed the Sunday miles-long traffic jam on I-95 on a "truck accident" lol. A bald-faced lie repeated on 3 local news networks; none of which reported the downtown rally even existed. This same kind of thing happened all over the country at that same time period and ever since.

> The failure to report on Impeachment: Not even when 35 well-documented Articles of Impeachment against the bush regime are read publicly in Congress last month. One of them even stating that the CIA is now paying and arming terrorists to make attacks in Iran that kill innocent civilians in order to start a war. This is criminal activity on the part of the media: Some day, some time... There will be mainstream corporate news media executives going to jail over this for Treason.

> The failure to report on any of the 911 Truth evidence and movement; or that several Ministers and Parliament members of other countries have publicly called for new investigations on this... Many of them actually using evidence from their own intelligence agencies to accuse the CIA and bush regime of involvement in it as a "false flag" operation (as seen in Germany, Japan, UK, France, Italy, and other U.S. "allies").

There are dozens, or even hundreds of examples of important stories being ignored or suppressed... The rule of thumb is if it damaging to the bush regime, or risks opening up other truths, it is either heavily spun with a dis'ing campaign using straw-man and ad hominem attack against the whistle-blowers/truth tellers (...including the use of paid shills commenting on the Interent, which i also have proof of), or completely ignored (the most common tactic).

We in the U.S. have controlled media NOW... And this is THE ONLY reason they can get away with all the other crud they are pulling. So if we want to unravel this mess, and start making solutions: This is what must change first.

There are some very good ideas on just how to do this, but there's no reason to let them know about them yet

Hey Jib & Ingram;

First off I think the article is so much hysterical rubbish written by a liberal left-winger who needs to get her head on straight and stop trying to scare people. And no I am not a gov,t. mole and dis-agree with at least half of anything any administration does.

Without going into a point-by-point rebuttal just look around. Do you see thousands or even hundreds of the type of incidents she relates? No. A lot of what has happened is caused by over zealous bureaucrats who have more power and energy than they should and a definite lack of common sense.

As an example look at the disappearance of the Ramsey girl. The D.A. hounded her parents for 12 years, wasting thousands of tax dollars, then admitted he had been wrong (He never had a case). He should have been fired on the spot!

Look at the recent reversal of gun ownership laws that denied firearms to the public. These had been imposed on several large u.s. cities by local gov't. run amok. If Pres. Bush or any fed. organization had control of the courts or wanted to dis-arm us would they have allowed this reversal?

Yes the media is controlled by fewer and fewer people, but they are biased to the left, not the right, hence all the coverage of Barack Obama while practically ignoring McCain.

The A.C.L.U. should have been shut down long ago. Their main goal is to remove Christianity from the U.S. in any way, shape, or form. Anyone seen them going after any other religious group? Not surprising since they were started by a card-carrying communist. Another fact not taught in our history lessons, along with our constitutional rights and the Christian beginnings of our nation. Anyone seen a copy of the Constitution or Bill of Rights hanging in a school bldg. lately? Don't even think about hanging The 10 Commandments up, they'll be on you like a pack of wolves. If the charges read in Congress trying to impeach Pres. Bush had had any validity the media would have been all over it. There was a movement to impeach Pres. Clinton too, remember?

Sorry Jib, but if you want the war over, support it. If that had been done we would have put enough military in there to get the job done and been home by now. All this anti-war stuff does is give encouagement to the enemy. Remember Hanoi Jane ( Jane Fonda for you younger people). She cost us many casualties in Vietnam by her endorsement of The North Vietnamese. 20 years later she admitted she had been wrong. Didn,t bring any of our guys back, did it? And no,I'm not a war- monger and hate the casualities, expense,
and destruction it causes. I just realize sometimes you have to fight and you should get it over with a.s.a.p. Less costly in the long run.

Still respect you Jib, just disagree with you here. Try getting people to pray for the country, it will have a lot more effect, and keep you efforts on the alt. energy front. You need a good cause to expend all that energy on. LOL.

Al.

[Ingram]

Ah, so comes the voice of reason. Telling us not to pay any attention to the rabble rousers on the left as of course anyone who might question the fascist agenda and give a flip about the integrity of a free nation is, of course.

Save it pal.

It is through ideologically blind bible thumpers such as yourself that the Carl Rove agenda manipulated the religious right to introduce such wondrous things as the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just for additional fun let’s throw in foreign policy isolationism, governmental fiscal irresponsibility, war profiteering by defense department contractors, erosion of civil liberties and not the least evil of which is an out of control Executive branch.

Nonsense you say? Of course this is all par for the course and I’m just another deluded unenlightened liberal atheist and am not to be taken seriously. Right?

Let’s pick apart your assertions shall we?

First off I think the article is so much hysterical rubbish written by a liberal left-winger who needs to get her head on straight and stop trying to scare people. And no I am not a gov,t. mole and dis-agree with at least half of anything any administration does.

A “liberal” left-winger. That’s one of those fond euphemisms used by the right in the last two decades (political strategy) to intimidate anyone who is not blindly following the asserted agenda into submission and not at all dissimilar to religious methodology of the last 2000 years. After all, who want’s to be branded a leftist commie pinko or godless heathen? McCarthyism at it’s finest!
How dare she give a flip about her (and her children’s) civil liberties much less that of anyone else. Better to leave that in the hands of those who know better. Is that you?

Yes the media is controlled by fewer and fewer people, but they are biased to the left, not the right, hence all the coverage of Barack Obama while practically ignoring McCain.

In the United States, data on ownership and market share of media companies is not held in the public domain. Do you know what that means? That no one knows who is pulling the strings. At this point, the left and right are not diametrically opposed. They are simply marginally different from one another and effectively both used as a tool to limit options and information to you and I, closing the noose tighter and tighter. When is the last time you sought news outside of the mainstream? And, if too incredulous, actually investigated it?
Insofar as your references to the candidates. Go to your bastion, Fox news and search for Obama = 6770 results, McCain = 5480 results. You don’t get further right than that source.

Without going into a point-by-point rebuttal just look around. Do you see thousands or even hundreds of the type of incidents she relates? No. A lot of what has happened is caused by over zealous bureaucrats who have more power and energy than they should and a definite lack of common sense.

Do I see them reported in the media? You are absolutely correct. I do not. If I go to youtube and type “police abuse” I get 2200 clips.

I would very much like you to provide a point by point rebuttal though. As I will.

Internal & external enemy: Are you kidding me? Milosevic, Hitler, Stalin & Mussolini and more dictatorial and fascist leaders than I care to name have used this tactic very effectively.

Create a gulag: Extraordinary Rendition ring a bell??

Develop a thug caste: State and local police, Federal Marshals, FBI, CIA, Secret Service, Secret Service Uniformed Division (before you po-po these guys do your homework), NSA, IRS, DEA, Air Force Intelligence, Army Intelligence, Coast Guard Intelligence, Defense Intelligence Agency, Department of Energy, Department of Homeland Security Department of State, Department of the Treasury, Marine Corps Intelligence, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, Navy Intelligence and sooooo many additional enforcement arms such as your son’s & daughters that have sworn:
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

As I have myself. All of these guys and many more will happily stomp your precious petunias in the dirt without a second thought.

Set up an internal surveillance system: NSA warrantless surveillance do it for you? No?
There is so much here that I’ll happily get to it if you want to argue about it but at the moment that should be more than enough.

Harass citizens' groups: You reference the ACLU & religion. Yes, I agree that religion should NOT be used in the methodology that it is as a political tool. The sad fact is however, that it is being used in that way and as a means of self defense, the ACLU has worked to prevent religious zealots from usurping the constitution. I don’t wonder that you have a problem with them.

Engage in arbitrary detention and release: If you think this doesn’t happen all the time you need to read the news.

Target key individuals: Notwithstanding the “Liberal” smear that you like so much, I think that Mrs. Wolf did a great job in delineating quite a few instances. Did you bother to look?

Dissent equals treason: A fine example is the agenda of Bush Sr in the restructure of the republican party. No dissent is tolerated and your fellows will NOT hesitate to turn on you. That is applicable in a wider social sense as well as within the theological/social institution of the church.
Suppression of free speech is one of the primary tools by which this operandi is executed on a broad social scale to limit large scale grass roots communications (rallies and large communal gatherings) but much subtler tactics are used as well.

Suspend the rule of law. I think she covered this pretty well so unless you have a viable rebuttal, this ought to cover it
2007 Defense Authorization Bill: “Expansion of the President's power to declare martial law under revisions to the Insurrection Act, and take charge of United States National Guard troops without state governor authorization when public order has been lost and the state and its constituted authorities cannot enforce the law”.

Look at the recent reversal of gun ownership laws that denied firearms to the public. These had been imposed on several large u.s. cities by local gov't. run amok. If Pres. Bush or any fed. organization had control of the courts or wanted to dis-arm us would they have allowed this reversal?

The Large US cities that passed ban’s on handguns in the 1980’s & 90’s were in response to epidemic levels of violence that were NOT rectified by the subject laws. The Federal Government outlawed Assault weapons or more precisely, semi-automatic weapons with a “military” appearance.
The Fed. did not have a choice in the matter as (thankfully) Justice Antonin Scalia is a strict constitutional formalist rather than adhering to the more loose, living constitution doctrine that implicitly suggest that justices should interpret the framers intent based on current situational parameters.

if you want the war over, support it. If that had been done we would have put enough military in there to get the job done and been home by now.

Who is to blame for that? Specifically, the overly optimistic Donald Rumsfeld (and administration). Do I need to spell out his conservative credentials?

After the fact, is the Bush administration. The fact of the matter is that an end to war in exactly what is not desired by the defense industry who is war profiteering on the dual front conflicts. Lives be damned.

I just realize sometimes you have to fight and you should get it over with a.s.a.p. Less costly in the long run.

I agree with you completely. I wish we would go in to win, but that’s not profitable.

I leave you with President Eisenhower's admonition regarding an unchecked DOD as it is the paramount key to this conversation to whom the Republican majority is but a pawn:

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Try getting people to pray for the country

That's right. Shut your mouths, say nothing and pray, pray for deliverance from the results of your apathy.

[ashtweth]

>Having a wholly controlled and suppressing media is the FIRST and FOREMOST prerequisite to creating a fascist state.

Jib, Most of the masses don't read your blog, (they should you Rawk) people only know the NY times, Washington DC post and FOX Bro.

The independent media is suppressed, by the masses from conditioning!


It isnt mainstream where we need it , we need to create a category in SCHOOL, where people have to view and evaluate (compare notes) the independent medias, this is so we create a human who thinks (introspection) and not one who just obeys

The fascist corporate controlled media is controlling the mases!
They are hypnotized, monkey see monkey do.

Me want a Banana ! And grooming

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Ash;

Pretty much agree with you. There is a simple solution here in the U.S.

DON'T RE-ELECT ANYONE FOR 3 ELECTION CYCLES from local gov't. to federal level. We would have a whole new gov't. and the lobbyists would be going crazy trying to figure out who to drop their money on. I don't care what party or if they tell you they can walk on water, don't re-elect them. The gov't. will continue on as most of it is run by lower level bureaucrats that aren't elected. At the end of those 3 cycles the politicians will have gotten the message that "we are tired of their politics and we ain't gonna take it anymore" and will mostly straighten up(hopefully). If not, boot them out again. I don't really expect it to happen for many reasons, but it is the simplest and, I believe, the best and most peaceful solution to get back control of our country.

Al

[jibbguy]

Term limits roxx!

i agree with that: Term Limits are important. And there should be restrictions to keep them ALL the way out of government... Including lobbying after their terms are up.

Antiquer, regarding your earlier post, i would always be pleased to share political ideas with some1 like you

After all, my interest is not to "change anyone's mind" (that's not gonna happen anyway); only to perhaps relate some facts in a different light than what people out there are used to seeing.... and i certainly know that the world comes in 256 shades of gray

i have no enemies in politics (well, except for some paid shills who occasionally followed me around hehehe)... The difference between exchanging ideas and political dogmatism is listening.

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Ingram;

Blah, blah, blah, just like the author we are discussing. Guess I hit a nerve. Typical liberal knee-jerk response to anyone who dis-agrees with you. Yes, I do try to be the "voice of reason", not run off into wild-eyed rants that generally make no impact other than inciting or scaring people who are inclined to the wrong decisions to start with.

Glad to be a "bible thumper" as you put it, though bible-believer or Christian would be a lot more accurate. Would I be better off as a "commie pinko" or "Godless heathen? Would you? Would anyone? Don't think so. I totally dis-agree with Mcarthy's actions, too. Perfect example of power and drive run amok; he didn't do it by himself, though, did he?

As to gov't. I said I disagree with at least half of anything any administration does. Nothing you mention is new. Everything you mentioned was going on and discussed in George Washington's administration and the revolutionary war. If you want action that will really change it read my post to Ash. Simple, effective, legal, peaceful, no speeches or marches required.

Media ownership,etc. is no different than any other company. Unless it is a "publicly owned" corp. or company they are not required to disclose anything except for tax purposes. I agree they are misusing this to their advantage, but who would be the first to scream if anyone tried to take away this "right".
I have many sources outside the mainstream media, many of them missionaries living all over the world. Don't believe out of hand most of what I see on Fox, CBS, etc. I also have relatives in the state dept. and one of my in-laws was chief financial advisor to the senate. As to for the disparity in news coverage between Obama & McCain even the late night comedians have picked up on it. You need to check the basis for the Fox search. Over what time period? Coverage of McCain has really tapered
off since the primaries. What qualified as a covered event and how long an event? Looks like a 10 second mention of McCain would be equal to a 30 min. talk with Obama. Even the figures you posted show Obama ahead by 25% in coverage.

Yes, police abuse exists. Apparently you have fallen into the trap of believing it's a gov't. policy, rather than bad decisions by cops on the scene or excessive goading by protestors, etc. Yes, their are bad cops, just as bad people in the general population. They should be fired and prosecuted for their actions. Just don't make the actions of a few into a gov't policy or a Machivellian plot. The plotters are much more subtle than that at the level they are currently operating.

I know many people in the military, both serving currently and retired. Your comment about the military "stomping my petunias" is ridiculous. Do you really believe American's are going to start executing and enslaving their neighbors or fellow country men enmasse just because some one orders them to? Unlike Germany, China, and Russia we have a Christin heritage(whether you like it or believe it or not) and a constitution which results in a different mindset. When was the last time you saw tanks in Central Park firing on and dispersing protestors? They did it in Tianamen Square 10 years ago, not here.
Also nothing new about actions by the Gov't. to try to ferret out terrorists by what you call "warrantless searches" and "suspension of civil rights". Lincoln suspended all civil rights and declared martial law during the Civil War in order to find Southern spies and supporters. I don't care who listens to my phone calls or reads my e-mails as I have nothing to hide. Do You? If not then quit squawking, no one's after you. I'm for whatever it takes to find the terrorists before they kill another 2700 americans. Yes, some mistakes have been made and more will be; overzealous bureaucrats again( dare I even say stupid: someone might be eaves-dropping).

Glad you mentioned Bush's "re-structuring of the republican party". Excuse me, what did and is Nancy Pelosi doing to the democratic party? Oh, she's a liberal and a woman. Not politically correct to mention that.(Oops, anybody listening? Is that the sound of boots and a knock on my door?)

Maybe you should go read the Constitution. It was designed to prevent gov't. interference in religion, not protect the gov't. from religion. It was written and signed by mostly Christian men that believed without religion as a basis for your life you should not serve in an elected position as how could you be trusted without that guidance. John Adams (2nd. president and signer) flatly stated that, along with most of the others. The first Continental Congress authorized and paid for the printing of 20,000 bibles to be distributed to the indians. Sound like "separation of church and state" to you? Of course not. That nonsense was started my a newspaperman in the 1880's. Doesn't appear anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of rights or any amendment.

I have already stated what the A.C.L.U. is about. If you think I am wrong feel free to check out their history, who founded them, and where the money is coming from to support their continued effort's to remove Christianity in particular from America. Much of it is coming from the American tax-payer due to a twisted interpretation of the law by some liberal justices. Odd, isn't it, that lawyers were one of only two professions that Jesus spoke out against.

The ban on handguns is still, as I said, a typical knee-jerk reaction by politicians. You surely don't believe a criminal who wants a gun is going to abide by any law? No, only the general population who are at their mercy if unarmed. A cop is only of use to prevent a mugging if he is standing there. I personally put a mugger in jail as I was armed with a hand gun and this idiot had only a knife. I could have shot and/or killed him, but I held him for the police. What if I had not "been carrying?" Think he would have been as kind towards me? How many cops have shot themselves or innocent civilians after extensive training? I like the town in Georgia which requires every household to own a gun. Crime rate there? Zero. I believe every citizen has the right to carry a handgun if they want and shotguns are a little awkward to take everywhere. The crime rate would drop significantly if we did.
In the conduct of the war there is plenty of blame to go around in both the White House and the Congress. Wars should mostly be left to the professionals, not politicians. They will make mistakes, too, but by and large will get the job over with sooner with a better outcome.

I liked Ike. A good man in spite of his alledged affair with his secretary (Yeah, he had human failings to. At least he didn't drag it into the White House.) But again, nothing new. That's why The Constitution has checks and balances. Problem is the public has let the politicians and corporations gain to much control. Solution is simple as I told Ash. Take the gov't. back by using the only real control we have; VOTE as I suggested.

Lastly, I said "Pray for the country" not shut your mouth and be apathetic. I still believe God has control of everything on the planet and will change it if you ask him. There are examples of this in the Bible, be glad to post some if you wish. As the country did pretty well for 175 years with this as the major belief I think it works well. It was only when we got off this course we began to fail as a nation. There are plenty of people praying now. Guess will have to see if that or the rhetoric, hot air, wave-the-flag and march against anything actions of the liberals work. That doesn't seem to be having much of a positive effect so far, does it?

Al

[muttdogg]

Constitution

Hey Ingram,
I am wondering if you, like many others understand the difference between a liberal interpretation, or a conservative interpretation. The liberal idea is that it is a living document, subject to change with the winds that blow on a day to day, year to year basis. Of course Ted Kennedy would be seen as a liberal for passing the acts, then a conservative for defending tha law.
On the other hand conservatives want a discplined document subjected to the utmost scrutiny, before enacting any law. So President Bush would be seen as liberal, passing tax cuts, then conservative to maintain them.
As far as there is no public forum to discuss this, or any idea: aren't we discussing it now? Here on this thread? Voting is the only option, so vote. Many more are going to listen, read your posts, here because this is the most interactive forum you will find. Now that the town hall is replaced by television. Or the laziness, afforded by being a couch potato.
Dan

[Ingram]

Hi Dan,
Regarding Justice Scalia as strict constitutional formalist, I would indeed consider his as a conservative position. That is a position I personally prefer on behalf of the Justices toward the Constitution however. I do not profess to be a liberal but as I am not hard to the right I am tagged with a label that the Republican party has used to create a political and social stigma in order to delegitimize opposing views.

Yes the internet has become the new town hall but at what cost? Market penetration of this medium in America is at around 73% and that effectively limits information to around 80 million people (as a conservative estimate) for whom this town hall is unavailable.
The upside is that it becomes that much harder for an open society to restrict abuse of power as you and I are freely able to disseminate information.

I do vote every chance I get but voting is far away from our only option. Political and social activism is incredibly effective as evidenced by the manipulation of the religious right when the Republican party used gay marriage and abortion as wedge issues. Activism from the pulpit is effectively what caused Bush to be reelected. Have you heard a peep about those issues from the white house since their political objectives were obtained?

Thanks for the feedback Dan

[muttdogg]

Voting religiously

Hey Ingram,
Thanks for the response! I feel I must correct you on a needless point. The liberal left, as well as the conservative right court those in their corner. The activists on either side, whether politically, or, religiously, always seem to scream the loudest. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Now, it is not my saying,but I'd like to turn that around. "The squeaky wheel gets the kick!"

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that activism is the path to making your, and my concerns known. I am a conservative, when it comes to government regulation, particularly where the regulation of commerce between the states, and our income, be it from wages, or small businesses we own, are concerned. The Federal government has boundaries established by the constitution. I would like to see those boundaries stay in place.

However, when it comes to our daily life, whether yours, mine, or neighbors not harming any with their lifestyle, I say f@#%-off. Legislating morality is about as dumb as a box of rocks. From either side. I don't want the gays to hi-jack marriage, yet don't care one whit if they want to have some kind of husband-husband,wife-wife type thingy. Benefits for your partner, why not? It just isn't marriage. Make a new name for it.

Okay. Off on a tangent. You might want to read up on where fascism comes from. All despotic regimes come from the right to suppress, from the left,or the right. You might also notice that those who agree with the presently powerful, they sometimes stay at home,to stand in the closet while they fart. George Carlin.

Dan

[Ingram]

Al,

[QUOTE]

Blah, blah, blah, just like the author we are discussing. Guess I hit a nerve. Typical liberal knee-jerk response to anyone who dis-agrees with you. Yes, I do try to be the "voice of reason", not run off into wild-eyed rants that generally make no impact other than inciting or scaring people who are inclined to the wrong decisions to start with.

I see that you are an advocate of the Ann Coulter school of discussion. Insult, ridicule and posture in order to shout louder and overwhelm any other viewpoint. Can’t say that I appreciate that methodology.

Glad to be a "bible thumper" as you put it, though bible-believer or Christian would be a lot more accurate. Would I be better off as a "commie pinko" or "Godless heathen? Would you? Would anyone? Don't think so.

I don’t know, why not ask some of the other 3.9 billion people on the planet if they are better off? Most seem to be doing just fine with their theology without your help.

As to gov't. I said I disagree with at least half of anything any administration does. Nothing you mention is new. Everything you mentioned was going on and discussed in George Washington's administration and the revolutionary war. If you want action that will really change it read my post to Ash. Simple, effective, legal, peaceful, no speeches or marches required.

I’m receptive to viable alternatives to the current system certainly. The primary fallacy’s that I note in your suggestion is that it eliminates experienced public servants and does nothing to prevent special interest and lobbyist control of government.

Media ownership,etc. is no different than any other company. Unless it is a "publicly owned" corp. or company they are not required to disclose anything except for tax purposes. I agree they are misusing this to their advantage, but who would be the first to scream if anyone tried to take away this "right".
I have many sources outside the mainstream media, many of them missionaries living all over the world. Don't believe out of hand most of what I see on Fox, CBS, etc. I also have relatives in the state dept. and one of my in-laws was chief financial advisor to the senate. As to for the disparity in news coverage between Obama & McCain even the late night comedians have picked up on it. You need to check the basis for the Fox search. Over what time period? Coverage of McCain has really tapered
off since the primaries. What qualified as a covered event and how long an event? Looks like a 10 second mention of McCain would be equal to a 30 min. talk with Obama. Even the figures you posted show Obama ahead by 25% in coverage.

You are now re-qualifying your assertion. Perhaps McCain has been covered for quite some time and has no new positions to bring to the table. He’s not overly popular with the right as a whole as I understand. That Obama kind of came out of left field and is relatively new to the media may be a contributing factor to his popularity in the press.
The results indicated are to demonstrate that even the darling of the right “Fair & Balanced” Fox, is skewed toward Obama. So your assertions of a liberal media are obviously not wholly correct.

Yes, police abuse exists. Apparently you have fallen into the trap of believing it's a gov't. policy, rather than bad decisions by cops on the scene or excessive goading by protestors, etc. Yes, their are bad cops, just as bad people in the general population. They should be fired and prosecuted for their actions. Just don't make the actions of a few into a gov't policy or a Machivellian plot. The plotters are much more subtle than that at the level they are currently operating.

Obviously some examples of governmental policy are required:
American gestapo | Capitol Hill Blue
Anti-Constitutional Activities of the US Gov't. Part 1 of 4
Waco
Why Waco Still Matters by Anthony Gregory
Branch Davidian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ruby Ridge
Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here’s one you will love
American Civil Liberties Union : Top Ten Abuses of Power Since 9/11

I fully expect that you will poo-poo anything shown but hey, I made the effort.

I know many people in the military, both serving currently and retired. Your comment about the military "stomping my petunias" is ridiculous. Do you really believe American's are going to start executing and enslaving their neighbors or fellow country men enmasse just because some one orders them to? Unlike Germany, China, and Russia we have a Christin heritage(whether you like it or believe it or not) and a constitution which results in a different mindset. When was the last time you saw tanks in Central Park firing on and dispersing protestors? They did it in Tianamen Square 10 years ago, not here.

You “know” people and have referenced that a few times now as if it were relevant. I have been there and acted as a police authority in Germany during the Berlin nightclub bombing and as we retaliated against Lybia. We operated on a high state of alert and it is indeed policy for police and military enforcement arms to follow lawful orders and religion has NOTHING to do with it. Kicking in doors and killing suspects is par for the course and you are deluding yourself if you think your religion protects you. The problem with expanded Federal police power is that the definition of “suspect” can now be broadened to a larger target pool in the form of US citizenry and those police powers applied at will domestically. The fact that you or I have nothing to hide is irrelevant. The issue at hand is an intrusive police state

A nice little example in the form of an Atlanta murder. This 92 year old Baptist woman was religious too.
After Atlanta raid tragedy, new scrutiny of police tactics | csmonitor.com

Yes, I know… Isolated incidences…. Out of control “individuals”….
Unfortunately, it is systemic of police actions on a national basis.

Also nothing new about actions by the Gov't. to try to ferret out terrorists by what you call "warrantless searches" and "suspension of civil rights". Lincoln suspended all civil rights and declared martial law during the Civil War in order to find Southern spies and supporters. I don't care who listens to my phone calls or reads my e-mails as I have nothing to hide. Do You? If not then quit squawking, no one's after you. I'm for whatever it takes to find the terrorists before they kill another 2700 americans. Yes, some mistakes have been made and more will be; overzealous bureaucrats again

While overseas, I went to Dachau and Auschwitz and witnessed the results of an out of control government in the guise of nationalism. Most of the population around Dachau had no idea what was transpiring there but would have been powerless to stop it if they did. I watched with horror the effects of nationalism in Yugoslavia and the Baltic states, Rwanda, and continuingly the effects of the Mexican oligarchy on it’s citizens and yes, I am an alarmist when it comes to the abuse of power at the expense of a population.
History is rife with examples of how under a wartime scenario, police powers are expanded and not withdrawn after the fact. A war on terror is like a war on drugs. Unending so that the emergency is never over and the “temporary” actions become permanent and very, very profitable for the military industrial complex and those affiliated with it.

Glad you mentioned Bush's "re-structuring of the republican party". Excuse me, what did and is Nancy Pelosi doing to the democratic party? Oh, she's a liberal and a woman. Not politically correct to mention that.

In comparison not much. The fact that you celebrate exclusionism and nationalist policies is very telling however.

Maybe you should go read the Constitution. It was designed to prevent gov't. interference in religion, not protect the gov't. from religion. It was written and signed by mostly Christian men that believed without religion as a basis for your life you should not serve in an elected position as how could you be trusted without that guidance. John Adams (2nd. president and signer) flatly stated that, along with most of the others. The first Continental Congress authorized and paid for the printing of 20,000 bibles to be distributed to the indians. Sound like "separation of church and state" to you? Of course not. That nonsense was started my a newspaperman in the 1880's. Doesn't appear anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of rights or any amendment.

As yes, the framers. Men who practiced slavery and a government policy of genocide against the native population. Fine Christians all. That is quite a moral model. This is a Democracy not a Theocracy although there are many who would prefer it that way.

I have already stated what the A.C.L.U. is about. If you think I am wrong feel free to check out their history, who founded them, and where the money is coming from to support their continued effort's to remove Christianity in particular from America. Much of it is coming from the American tax-payer due to a twisted interpretation of the law by some liberal justices.

I have already stated my opinion on the subject also. Funny how the churches like to exploit their own particular exploitation of the system in the form of a tax exempt loophole although they practice politics from the pulpit and claim that they should be “protected” from the government. Talk about twisted.

Problem is the public has let the politicians and corporations gain to much control. Solution is simple as I told Ash. Take the gov't. back by using the only real control we have; VOTE as I suggested.

We agree on this at least.

Lastly, I said "Pray for the country" not shut your mouth and be apathetic. I still believe God has control of everything on the planet and will change it if you ask him. There are examples of this in the Bible, be glad to post some if you wish. As the country did pretty well for 175 years with this as the major belief I think it works well. It was only when we got off this course we began to fail as a nation. There are plenty of people praying now. Guess will have to see if that or the rhetoric, hot air, wave-the-flag and march against anything actions of the liberals work. That doesn't seem to be having much of a positive effect so far, does it?

“Try getting people to pray for the country, it will have a lot more effect, and keep you efforts on the alt. energy front. You need a good cause to expend all that energy on. LOL.”

The inference here is that he should expend his activism energy on prayer which is, in regard to the material realm a rather passive affair. Ergo, that he should not act to effect change, rather appeal to a deity for intervention. Meanwhile… on the material front, political and social modifications are happily zipping along with no input from him because he’s praying and waiting for action from above.

Your theological beliefs in this regard are of no interest to me.

I agree, many people are praying for deliverance from the results of the last seven years and no, protest and resistance to a right wing increasingly oppressive government is not very successful. If this were a healthy functioning democracy, these actions would be much more effective.


Al,
Your personally insulting phraseology and condescending tone is inappropriate and I would appreciate that you be more courteous or refrain from insulting me further as I will simply ignore you.

[muttdogg]

Al posting

Hey Ingram,
Al. as a "senior member" doesn't have any of his own posts. And it makes me wonder. So, how, if you are a senior member, and you've never had your own post, being a senior means you just yap all the time?

Dan

[Aaron]

keep on topic, respectfully

Starting a thread is one thing and posting in a thread is another. Anyone is free to start a thread and anyone is free to post. A post in another thread is considered a post.

You're welcome to state your opinion. Simply state what you want to state and if you disagree with someone else's opinion, post why you have a disagreement without personally attacking anyone.

Engaging in a productive discussion doesn't have to be all about agreements. Otherwise, there wouldn't need to be any discussion if everyone had the same opinions.

I'm asking everyone to be respectful of everyone else. Disagreements, fine. But please keep it respectful.

[Ingram]

Al. as a "senior member" doesn't have any of his own posts. And it makes me wonder. So, how, if you are a senior member, and you've never had your own post, being a senior means you just yap all the time?

I'm sorry Dan, That's not a discussion I'd like to have.




For anyone else who reads this thread I regret the negative tone it has taken. I kind of jumped all over Al and quite naturally he returned the favor, so I extend my apologies to him and everyone else for my promulgation of negativity.