Explaining Lenz's Law without the "Law of Conservation of Energy"

[WesTheSavage]

I didn't know where to post this question on the forum, so I went here to the General Discussion threads if that's alright with the managers of this forum.

Look, I'm looking for the best explanation for Lenz's Law without invoking the Law of Conservation of Energy as it's strawmanned by the teachers unions, physicists, and lamestream academia today, IDEALLY not invoked at all.

I get that the Lenz's Law is also a manifestation of the same electricity you put into the electro-machine you use or the Lines of Force that you invoke that make Faraday's Law show up in said electro-machine.

I get that much, I think, but every single DAMNED physics page "explaining" their relationships invoke Einstein a lot, they invoke this strawmanning of the Law of Conservation, they invoke the Lorentz Transformation, and they invoke especially Einstein's expansions of Henri Poincare's Special Relativity he modified with his "general relativity".

I know that Steinmetz, Heaviside, Thomson and others have works to explain this, but I haven't managed to dig into them or have the time for myself to do it due to IRL bull****.

If anyone here's willing to take the time to read this request and possibly answer it when they actually HAVE the time to take, I'd appreciate it.

I'm also posting this here because I've NEVER been able to get the chance to call into Eric's live calls when he gets on due to SOMETHING about the universe or at least this local environment seeming to flip me off.

[JenkoRun]

I'm no expert but this kind of what I understand about it. First, when it comes to magnetism polarity is defined by spin direction, CW for North and CCW for south. In attractive configuration magnets have their fields rotating in the same direction so they spatially void out and come together, opposites repel and like attracts.

Second, the Lenz drag effect is directly related to the right hand rule and likely related to how circular Magnetic and radial Dielectric fields are usually perpendicular to each other, leading to their cross electrification product inherently having this perpendicular "drag" in them as a transverse waveform and where the RHR comes into play.

If we take the basics of what happens between magnets and conductors we may have an answer, when a changing magnetic field is applied to a conductor it becomes electrified, it induces both a magnetic and dielectric field at right angles to each other, if we take this principle and shrink it down to the particle and a magnet example the right angle push would line up with the particle being electrified and responding as a radial component, resulting in it moving perpendicular to the circular magnetic field.

Basically, if the thing in question is electrified, it will respond to magnetic fields as a radial dielectric field and will attempt to operate perpendicular to it, and vice versa. I don't know why exactly though, the answer is probably in Ken's book, I don't have the willpower go sludge through that right now.

“The great mystery, now understood, is that while magnetism and dielectricity move 180 degrees from each other, in binding closed systems where gravity is immense, either in galactic structures, or in nuclear structures, the disk-dumbbell formations of dielectricity and magnetism move (only apparently) 90 degrees from each other in the special geometric formations of a disk and a pair of inverse double hyperbolas, since the structure is of course binding and contractive, this is the lowest pressure model of magneto-dielectric mutual repulsion.

How do two opposite forces that are “tied” together in a system (inter-atomic, galactic, permanent magnet) move 180 degrees from each other when one is spatial and polarized, and the other is radial and counterspatial, the answer is an inertial plane accretion disk and a double hyperbola. What appears as perpendicular movement is in fact maximum repulsion in a binding system.”

-Uncovering the Missing Secrets of Magnetism 4th edition. Also found this here post from Wheeler: http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...943#post363943 so perhaps it's just the electrified cross product at 90 degrees making its own magnetic field at another 90 degrees leading leading the opposing polarity and the Lenz effect.

This is just a basic outline of the little I understand of the exact mechanism behind Lenz law, I need to dedicate more time to the topic before I can understand it. Hopefully someone who knows more will comment here about it,

[WesTheSavage]

I also understand that the Faraday's Law EMF and Lenz's Law Back EMF are both manifested from the exact same electrical energy inputs that you use to move a motor or invoke in a generator.

So the sum total of that energy expression is manifested in both and both can transform part of that into mechanical work.

[JenkoRun]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but if you're saying that all your input energy is appearing as the sum of both the input EMF and the Back EMF it's not that way at all, the Lenz induced field is induced by but not made from the original EMF, it arises on its own through self induction stimulated by the input EMF, for all intense and purposes that Lenz drag is free, unfortunately it's operating against the input which creates the drag.

Engineer around Lenz drag or even utilize it to aid the prime mover and you'll easily move into COP > 1 ranges, conservation of energy has no validity outside of artificial machinery. Peter points out some of this stuff in his Electric Motor Secrets series. I'm not going to dig up all the references to this point across the forum right now so you'll have to go search for yourself if you want validation and references for that.

I just came across an old post from Peter on the topic, seems useful: http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/...562#post400562

jettis and erfinder also have posts around here for overcoming Lenz drag, very much worth reading what they've posted here. Monopolar activities appear to be the key to avoiding the action-reaction equivalence, Tesla accomplished that through both mechanical and electrical resonance.

[jettis]

Regarding the SSG in single pole operation as first taught by John, with all north poles on the rotor and a single coil that charges a second battery, in conventional SSG mode and or generator mode. You will find the spike and additive EMF will increase current consumption (increase in primary battery current draw) and drag (rpm loss) in both cases. If you increase the voltage of the secondary battery (keeping the primary at 12 volts) to 120 volts, current consumption will decrease and rpm’s will increase. If you block the spike from its path to the charging battery, current consumption will also vastly decrease. In all cases with the standard SSG the spike and EMF (generating action) causes an increase of primary battery current consumption.

To me that is the same problem that is found in a dc motor with its output shaft connected to the dc generator shaft. That is what I have found and therefore I am looking for other ways to use the spike and EMF, generator action, now that I understand.

The way I currently think is that the SSG was just the first of multiple steps in advancement into this field, the next step is the zero force motor, window motor, window motor with the extra coil at 90 degrees and the Bedini 3 coil ferris wheel.

Dave Wing

[gmang73]

Lorentz Law = Natures Governor.
All things have another angle or may become more efficient that I have observed.
First as Viktor Schauberger stated Comprehend Nature then Copy it.
A lot of people have laid claim to bypassing or defeating and I have only witnessed a handful over several decades.
Some coat magnet wire that would buck boost, Vesgen101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is-6K7i8kjo They had a site called https://teep.forumco.com/default. Although this has closed, Unfortunately All of what they were sharing has been taken down as they found something Big. They were coating square enameled wire with a substance that helped inductance and permeability, i.e. the ability to fill and release without currents or eddy's, As is the Ideal.
A lot of people will state a lot of things without accomplishing or tell you how things cannot be accomplished.
Lorentz is a state of interaction between objects objecting.
I hope this helps.

[jettis]

I’ll say some more on current consumption and circulating current when running a SSG.

1) If you connect the flyback diode back to the primary positive, you will see high current consumption and a high loss of rotor RPM. If you measure these currents you will find close to 90 to 95 percent of your applied current being returned through this diode. The higher the applied voltage the higher the percentage of output flowing through the diode back into the coil.

2) If you connect the diode to the secondary battery positive and connect the negative to the primary positive you will see less current consumption and RPM loss than number 1. Your rate of charge will be around 30 percent recovery. The current is still making its way into and through the secondary battery and into the primary positive and back into the power coil causing current consumption.

3) If you connect the diode to a secondary battery of equal voltage as the primary and tie the negatives together (gen mode), you will see increased current consumption and rpm loss because of circulating currents, currents are being pulled out of the primary battery as it is acting as a source charge with a power/ generating coil in series with the primary battery causing a differential in potential over and above the secondary battery voltage. The lower the impedance of the power / generator coil the more current comsumption or draw from your primary battery. This is the circulating current that charges your secondary battery. The SSG coil pulls current from the primary and sends it to the secondary battery bank, the secondary battery is receiving the energy from the magnetics of the rotor / coil and the primary battery, the two are additive and charge the secondary battery. To me this is not ideal, but it is a device that can demonstrate a high rate of power consumption from the primary battery and an equally high rate of energy transfer or charge to the secondary battery when used with low inductance (impedance) power/ generator coils. High inductance coils have a lower transfer rate, because of less current flow or current consumption.

The machine demonstrates the use of circulating currents, the lower the coil impedance the higher the circulating currents. Some may have noted they have more ***out*** than in on their amp meters but yet have no over unity as the primary battery continues to drop in voltage at the proportional rate of the output and not input.

This machine is quite interesting and has taken a lot of lab work to get this far in my understanding.

Dave Wing

[jettis]

I copied and pasted point number 3 into Chat GPT and it summarized it for better clarity.



“Core Principles at Play

1. Back EMF Recovery:
   • The system described appears to leverage the recovery of back EMF, a common technique in energy recovery circuits (like those proposed by John Bedini in SSG systems).
   • Back EMF is the energy produced when a magnetic field collapses in a coil, which can be redirected into a secondary battery via a diode.
2. Circulating Currents:
   • When the primary and secondary batteries are interconnected, circulating currents flow between them, driven by potential differences and coil impedance.
   • These currents increase the load on the primary battery, consuming more energy but transferring it to the secondary battery.
3. Impedance Effects:
   • Low Impedance: Allows more current flow, resulting in higher energy transfer rates but also greater energy consumption and potential mechanical loss (RPM drop).
   • High Impedance: Restricts current flow, reducing energy transfer and consumption but limiting the charging rate.”Quote from: Chat GPT

Although Chat GPT failed to include the coil collapse as an independent event aside from the generation of an additive EMF and not back EMF, it did mention leveraging or amplification of the recovery, which is the spike plus the additive emf. This is why you see an immediate increase in charging in gen mode (number 3) over Conventional mode (number 2).

Maybe this is not news to many but I often wondered why gen mode had so much more output.

Dave Wing

[jettis]

IMG_6221.png This is Peter Lindemann’s image of the CEMF analogy from Electric Motor Secrets DVD… the CEMF opposes the applied voltage limiting current for the applied power source.

[jettis]

Here is an example of the classic SSG waveform with all North Pole rotor. There are two different EMF’s a CEMF or Back EMF and a additive EMF… CEMF blue circle opposes the applied or primary battery voltage and the additive EMF in red circle adds to the applied primary battery voltage. There are two emf’s in a North Pole face of a magnet. IMG_6222.jpeg