Obama's Perestroika

[Vortex]

A very good view of what is in place and coming over the next two years.

YouTube - Fall of the Republic HQ full length version

Do watch the whole video, then make up your mind.

There are those working to restore the republic.
The republic was removed in 1846 via the treaty below
that begins with "United States of America" and ends with "United States".
British-American Diplomcay : Treaty with Great Britain, in Regard to Limits Westward of the Rocky Mountains

Our biggest stick against those causing us grief is the 11th amendment,
ratified on February 7, 1795 altered Article III Section 2.
The 11th begins this way:
The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to
extend to any suit in law or equity.
Yes, that removes all law from the all courts.
and takes away the force from those using it.
there are no teeth in the dog that bites you.

take away their stick and beat them with it.
do the research.

[Mozaar]

A very good view of what is in place and coming over the next two years.

YouTube - Fall of the Republic HQ full length version

Do watch the whole video, then make up your mind.

Thanks for sharing this. This was a great production and informative, up to date.

[noises]

I live in Australia, and we've had a public health system for decades very much like what Obama is trying to set up.

In my reading, I've come across the postulation that the "fear uncertainty and doubt" (FUD) argument that universal health care equals communism stems from the manufactured fears of the cold war era, the systemic paranoia used by the military industrial complex, and it's one that rings true for me seeing some of the reactions and comments here. There certainly seems to be a great deal of fear and uncertainty floating around... mission accomplished for the spin doctors who lobby on behalf of big pharma?

As I said, here in australia we've had a provision for free public universal healthcare since the 1980's and the introduction of medicare(thirty years and counting...) So far we've managed to resist the slipperly slide into the depths of socialism. Our democracy is intact, still perfectly under the control of two supposedly different political parties who have become so alike in policy and practice that there's almost no point voting any more, you'll always get freedom, democracy, policy you don't agree with and mob rule from a delegate preffered and elected by less than 50% of the population.

The simple fact of teh matter is, in a democratic society with a free market economy, there will never be full employment. There will never be fiscal equality. In fact, as you can see on the streets in any big city in the US, people will fall through the cracks and end up living in poverty. some people just don't function well enough to self manage their lives as well as most.

And those people are who free healthcare is for. The people at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder, those with the greatest need and least resources. A civil society (forget about how it's structured,) cares for it members, the great and the small.

The question of universal healthcare availability becomes a question of civil rights. Just because a human being lacks the skills and abilities to perform in our society, either through illness, trauma or disability, does that mean they don't deserve to live? Because denying appropriate health care in a user-pays system to those who can't pay is in effect a death sentence. It's like a sign beside the world that says "you must earn this much money to be treated as a worthwhile human being, if you don't, tough eggs, die."

Seriously, it's a bit distressing to see the results of a 50 year old propaganda campaign still has people who were never even exposed to it susceptable to seeing reds under the bed at the merest sugguestion of the far-right press, and that fear and paranoia can still be used to make people blind to the simple truth that all human beings deserve the dignity and comfort of the healthcare they require for a decent quality of life, regardless of their ability to pay for it. If you don't mind paying your taxes to ensure there are roads and an army to protect your interests overseas, is it so terrible to think some of that money might be used to ensure a basically good quality of life for everyone? Could you stand to use some public money to run a public hospital, or do you guys REALLY NEED to buy another aircraft carrier?

[Nadda]

fear and paranoia can still be used to make people blind to the simple truth that all human beings deserve the dignity and comfort of the healthcare they require for a decent quality of life, regardless of their ability to pay for it.

I would love to agree with you but at what point is the line drawn for entitlements? We all agree certain entitlements must exist such as police protection, however, others should not. Surely you dont think we should entitle the homeless to a free house to live in, do you? A free car so they can hold a job?

Certainly not.

It has nothing to do with greed, fear, or paranoia. It has everything to do with teaching people to support themselves. At what point do you hold the people at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder responsible for getting themselves up that ladder to succeed? We all have the equal oppertunity to succeed. And equal oppertunity to afford our own, house insurance, car insurance, AND health insurance.

The right-wing agreed to health insurance reform just as much as everyone else. What they didnt agree to was to become the health insurance benefactors. I wanted to see reform take place to lower the costs so the uninsured could afford to become insured...not for us to insure them ourselves.

The question of universal healthcare availability becomes a question of civil rights. Just because a human being lacks the skills and abilities to perform in our society, either through illness, trauma or disability, does that mean they don't deserve to live? Because denying appropriate health care in a user-pays system to those who can't pay is in effect a death sentence. It's like a sign beside the world that says "you must earn this much money to be treated as a worthwhile human being, if you don't, tough eggs, die."

First let me say, that sign has been hanging over the world since before all of us were born. Unless a complete change in paradigm and release of advanced technologies takes place, that sign will continue to hang for the rest of our lives. Otherwise we would have to enbale all entitlements for every situation to ensure a happy and healthy life for all. I wish we could. I wish we could flip a switch and create utopia.

I am poor, and i am young. I will benefit more from this universal health care than anyone else here. Formerly uninsured by choice, I apparently now have access to health insurance through my parent. I am at the bottom of the scoio-economic ladder and its not your job to help me. Its my job to help me, which is why i work every day and try to learn new information every week. Anyone can learn anything about any trade with access to the internet. Everyone can succeed.

Could you stand to use some public money to run a public hospital, or do you guys REALLY NEED to buy another aircraft carrier?

Neither, what we REALLY need to do is STOP spending!
Its not your job to pay for my visit to the doctors and i dont want your money.
Its my responsibility to ensure I can afford my own insurance, weather that insurance is for my car, my house, OR my health.

[noises]

First let me say, that sign has been hanging over the world since before all of us were born. Unless a complete change in paradigm and release of advanced technologies takes place, that sign will continue to hang for the rest of our lives. Otherwise we would have to enbale all entitlements for every situation to ensure a happy and healthy life for all.

Well, that's not a sign that stands beside my world. Measure up or die? For real? Is there an empathy module that you can buy? Because that utopia you're wishing for? The only reason it hasn't happened is because the ideal hasn't reached critical mass, precisely because widely held attitudes that lack empathy. A man's true net worth is not a value expressed in dollars.

And please, don't say enabling all entitlements for every situation to ensure a happy and healthy life for all like it's a bad alternative. If you want that utopia, you're going to have to recognise it won't happen over night, it'll happen as a shift in linear time from one state of being to another, with landmark milestones along the way. Universal healthcare is one of them.

[Mad Scientist]

precisely because widely held attitudes that lack empathy.

OK how is this for showing empathy. Lets say a healthy able-bodied homeless bum knocks on your door and demands that you provide him a room. Do you open the door and say sure come on in you can have the master bedroom we will sleep on the floor?

Then what if he sits around all day watching your TV and now demands that you feed him. Will you do it? What if he wants new clothes, will you buy them for him?

At what point do you run out of empathy and just kick the bum out? I assume you personally would not tolerate this type of behavior for very long. So why is it OK for government to take your tax money and provide him with the same service?


The problem with our so called "Universal healthcare plan" as it is written it has very little to do with providing good health care but rather gives the elite dictatorial control over the type and quality and quantity of those services.

[Nadda]

OK how is this for showing empathy. Lets say a healthy able-bodied homeless bum knocks on your door and demands that you provide him a room. Do you open the door and say sure come on in you can have the master bedroom we will sleep on the floor?

Then what if he sits around all day watching your TV and now demands that you feed him. Will you do it? What if he wants new clothes, will you buy them for him?

At what point do you run out of empathy and just kick the bum out? I assume you personally would not tolerate this type of behavior for very long. So why is it OK for government to take your tax money and provide him with the same service?

Your exactly right and thats what i was also trying to point out.

Well, that's not a sign that stands beside my world. Measure up or die? For real?

Do you have any idea what goes on in the real world right now? Weather you like it or not the sign is there. Countless numbers of people die world wide every year due to not making enough money to pay for food, water and theyre well being. To say that reality doesnt exist in your world, doesnt fix it. If i dont measure up or i dont produce or im not productive, i will die. Thats reality. However giving me what i need for free simply enables me to continue to be unproductive and forces you to continue to be over-productive. Thats not how you start utopia.

There are people in this world who readily choose not to be productive. Thats a fact. There are people who choose to live off what the productive members of society will give them and have no ambition to accomplish anything more. Thats a fact. Increasing the "perks" for being unproductive does not incurage those people to learn ambition. It simply increases the number of people who would like to recieve those perks (without having to work all day).

(Example)
Now that i can get free health insurance i dont even need to worry about getting a job and having an employer pay for it. I can do construction work under the table and still not have to worry about getting hurt. Or worry about taxes for that matter.

Thats a landmark milestone towards utopia? I disagee.

[noises]

Weather you like it or not the sign is there

Put there, defended and accepted as "the way things are" by people just like you guys, who don't even see it as anything wrong

Have you ever wondered, if the things that are wrong and negative in this physical world are really things that are wrong with "the world" or just the attitudes of the people who live in it? Is it really "just the way things are" or is it more "just the way you are?"

Oh and your hypothetical scenario reeks of fear of lack, selfisness and hysteria. Way to take things right over the top. If a "bum" asked you for a dollar, would you give him five if that's the smallest note you had on you and you felt like being charitable for the sake of putting some good out there? Or would you not give your fellow man anything, for fear it will reduce the size of your pile at the end of the game? Enlighten up! I'd probably tell your able bodied homeless bum my place isn't the homeless shelter, that's three blocks over and one block down, and that he could also get a hot meal there. If I had time to spare, I might even offer him a lift. But that's just me.

[noises]

ever dropped a two dollar coin, started to bend down and pick it up, and had a thought hit your forehead like a javelin... "what If I dropped that money for a reason, and the person who finds it really needs it?" and felt compelled to leave it behind and walk away? I have. And I hadn't thought about it again until just now. Sure, money's important, but it's not important enough to defend jealously or callously.

[noises]

By the way, there's also several million people on the planet who, because they were bitten by a mosquito and now have maleria, are too sick to work and are a massive burden on their nation's economies. In fact, many entire countries are poor because of the percentage of the population who have maleria. I guess you're going to tell me it was their choice to be bitten by a mosquito, and that's why they're not producing, they're just lazy. And yet there's a product, that for about half a cent per dose, cures maleria. Yes, lets all stand by idly, busying ourselves with making sure we can pay for everything we want and serving our own material attachments and let entire nations collapse for the sake of a half a cent you don't want to give someone, that's aspiring to be the best person you can be.

For a long, long time, America has resisted the general worldwide shift towards universal healthcare, for a number of reasons, most of which are starting to bubble up in this thread. The fact of the matter is, universal access to basic health care is a fundamental human right, just as valuable and just as deserving of being defended at all costs as your precious concept of freedom, and far more people who can't afford it can't for reasons that trancend personal choice in all but the most esoteric of senses than can't afford it because they're lazy. I mean, the people of Iraq can't afford apache gunships, why are you lending them yours, and the personnel to fly them, and the fuel to run them, just so you can give freedom to people who can't get it for themselves? That's a pardox, isn't it?

What you really need to understand is few people want to participate in and enjoy the fruits of work more than those who, for reasons of illness or disability, can't. And you're talking about perpetuating the cycle of illness or disability that keeps hem unproductive by denying them access to counseling or rehabilitation to get them to a point where the can contribute to society more fully.

It's like trying to explain to a marine why killing is wrong. Enjoy your thread guys, I've said my piece.

[noises]

Enjoy your thread guys, I've said my piece.

actually, I've one last point to add. I live in a society where my government has just launched a new health initiative. They're targeting people with disabilities who live with such a profoundly poor self image that they don't even access the free public health services that are put in place for and made available to them, and tailoring whole assistance packages to them, covering everything from self care, motivation, healthcare and ending in worktraining and placement. All free, paid for at the expense of the Australian taxpayer. I live ina society that's taken down the old sign and replaced it with a new one that says "you must be this productive to be happy, if you're not, we'll help you get there."

I'm pleased to report that our exports and our local economy have both been performing well in the current global financial crisis, and that our imports are relatively cheaper because of the depressed state of your dollar and it's overall effect on global economies. Just sayin.

[Mad Scientist]

What you say is nice and it might even work in a truly idealist world. But we are not there yet. We have an elite group of individuals that want to rule the world and to control the world they want to see the world population reduced by 80% and they are actively working toward this goal.

You mention all the people dieing of malaria I would suggest that they are not dieing of malaria but are being purposely killed with it. We have an insecticide that very effectively kills the mosquitoes that carry the disease it is called DDT but we not allowed to use it. Because we are told it is unsafe and harms the environment. But that has been proven to be a lie. Jim Humble’s “Miracle Mineral Supplement” MMS has also been proven to cure malaria so why isn’t it being mass produced?

Yet we mass produced flu vaccines for NIHI virus which aside from appearing to be man-made was nowhere as deadly as the ordinary seasonal flu. Yet the government wanted all of us to get these flu shots. Why? These flu shots are know to contain some very nasty ingredients that have be shown to cause all sorts of health problems. Plus those were just the ingredients that we know about; could it contain others even more deadly?

Then we have the fluoride in our water which is a known poison but we are told is good for our teeth. And again this has been proven to be false.

I could go on and on with this list.

So is it any wonder that many people will question a national health care system that will force them to taking only what the government approved system claims is good for us while at the same time trying to make it illegal to use any alternative forms of health care?

[Nadda]

Theres no sense is trying to explain Mad Scientist. Noises didnt acknowledge any points we made.

I understand Noises point of view and even said i wish i could agree. I truly do, it would be nice to know that no one takes advantage of anyone else. To know everyone had a heart of gold and that everyone had the ambition to succeed... Noises appears to be naive enough to believe it. And apparently theres something wrong with us for not believing it..

I would love to see the world in a whole new paradigm just like im sure Noises does. I disagree with the guy on how to get there based on the mindset people have right now but none the less, I hope its something that is achieved. Personally i assume the best shot we have is the reduce this work-like state that the world revolves around. I imagine disclosing something like zero point energy would have a major impact on the demand for manual labor considering the potiential of robotics. Maybe then we wont be bound by the requirment for currency? Ultimatly who really knows?

I'm no genius and dont have the slightest idea to what the perfect solution is. I have as much compassion for every human being as everybody else does, the only difference is that i dont ignore those who currently live free off the hard work of everyone else. unfortunatley they exist by the millions, why do you think social security is going bankrupt? Its being handed out to Everyone.

Is it really "just the way things are" or is it more "just the way you are?"

Just the way i am? How many people have you seen, have babies, just so they can get a welfare check? How many drunks and drug addicts have you seen get accepted for social security? These are the people who are now going to be getting free health insurance... not only the sick and elderly. Please excuse me if i dont have sympathy for the drunks and drug addicts.

, money's important, but it's not important enough to defend jealously or callously.

I told you it has nothing to do with greed. I guess you didnt read that part. I leave tips to every waitress that serves me and even my barber. It has Nothing to do with greed my friend. I will give a lending hand to anyone who has an ambition to work and succeed.

I'd probably tell your able bodied homeless bum my place isn't the homeless shelter, that's three blocks over and one block down, and that he could also get a hot meal there. If I had time to spare, I might even offer him a lift. But that's just me.

I'd give him a lift too. I wouldnt pay for his visits to the doctors. But thats just me.

[Mad Scientist]

You mentioned social security here is a fact that most people are probably not aware of. When social security was first introduced it was sold to the public as being a supplemental income only and you were expected to provide the bulk of your retirement funds. Of course the real dirty little secret that no one was supposed to realize was that it was nothing more then a clever way to raise taxes.

The way it worked was quite simple you had to be 65 years old before you could get any payments. But the politicians back then knew that the average person would die before reaching 65. Thus any money they “contributed” into the system would never have to be paid out.

Are these the kind of people you want looking out for your best interest?