Are Dolphins and other Marine Mammals Sentient Beings?

[jibbguy]

Here is an excellent vid:

YouTube - Life: Bottlenose dolphins mud-ring feeding

This would appear to me to be dolphins adapting to a changing situation in food supply, by using their intelligence (the fisheries in South Florida are crashing rapidly now). Is that a definition of "sentience"?

One thing we should remember, is that our own "brand" of sentience may not be the "universal" brand

True story:

3 days ago , while sailing off Key West with my visiting sister in my 22' boat, i was telling her this story (...explaining the above YouTube). JUST AS I WAS TELLING HER THIS, at least 5 dolphins came up to the boat, swimming around us in a circle over and over; getting very close to the bow of the boat as they did so (we were heeled over and cruising along pretty good at that point). They stayed with us for about 10 mins, and my sister got some great footage (which when she gets home will send me for posting here). I got to look one dead in the eye as he/she went by.. The entire thing was thrilling beyond words.

WEIRD coincidence that they would come just then, lol... It has been pretty rare that i see them in such numbers, or that they circle the boat (often i will see a pair or two off in the distance during a day sailing). In over 20 years sailing in the area (or anywhere for that matter), this was the FIRST time i was ever treated to such a show

I am almost inclined to think they KNEW i was talking about them, and that i was suggesting to my sister they were "sentient beings"... And so came to make a point, lol... But that could be stretching it a bit.

There are many unique and interesting stories about animals, like the tamed elephant in Indonesia who suddenly grabbed her Mahout with her truck and threw him up onto her back, then ran uphill as fast as she could... Only a few minutes before the terrible tsunami hit several years ago... Saving his life.

Are marine mammals, and perhaps other animals, "sentient beings"?

[Aaron]

dolphins from the future

Maybe humans evolved later with some the sun dying out or whatever.
Some went underground and some went back towards the water.
With time travel technology, perhaps the dolphins were brought back in time
and put in water to survive so that when we, through multiple chances
to get it right, will alter the course of the future for the better. That would
prevent them from ever developing (dolphins) and to preserve that
evolved life, they were allowed to come back and coexist.
Maybe they're "descendents" of a certain kind.

[ewizard]

From a
Dolphins are the descendants of aliens that came to Earth in UFOs 100,000 years ago, a leading researcher reports.

I know it sounds crazy but it’s true,” said the fame marine biologist Hsu Sen-sung. “We’ve always known that dolphins were extremely intelligent but now, for the first time, we know why.

“These magnificent creatures are highly-evolved life forms that came to Earth from a distant planet.

“And from what I understand, the civilization they left behind was even more advanced than our own.”

The Beijing-based expert’s report to a gathering of scientists and reporters met with some skepticism but he provided strong evidence to support his claims.

Dramatic new studies suggest that some dolphins score higher on IQ tests than human beings. Hsu himself claims to have been communicating with a pair of the creatures telepathically since last December.

The expert was vague when asked to explain how he managed to crack the communications barrier with dolphins. He did say that the breakthrough came when a male dolphin at a marine research facility “grew close to one of my assistants and established a telepathic link that enabled it to put thoughts into her head.

“Full understanding of their thoughts and feelings came in fits and starts but we now seem to be on a common verbal ground,” said Hsu.

“The dolphins have made it clear that their ancestors came here 100,000 years ago to escape pollution on their home planet.

“But their starships – as well as the technological know-how that allowed them to save themselves – have long since vanished. Ironically, the pollution that drove them here so many years ago is now threatening their existence once again.

“As our own oceans become more and more polluted, dolphins kills are being reported around the world.

“But they no longer have the means to help themselves. They need us to find a solution for them.”

Hsu acknowledged that the Chinese government is considering how it might be able to assist dolphins.

But he would neither confirm nor deny that officials have quietly requested the help of the United States in solving the dolphins’ dilemma.

“These creatures have much to teach us,” he said. “We must do something to save them from extinction while we still have a chance.”

[ewizard]

I left something out of the above post and have edited and saved it twice but it's not showing up. Anyway I had intended to say 'From a Google source and that my wife talks a lot about this. I also knew a person who channeled Dolphins. They are a very playful and intelligent bunch.

[Aaron]

dolphins

And I thought it was only my idea that they may be from elsewhere.

[jibbguy]

I'd say there are a few problems with the suggestion dolphins are "transplants" from another planet.

Ever go to a Natural History Museum (such as the one that is part of the Smithsonian), and see a skeleton of a dolphin / porpoise? Besides the scull (which is not that all different anyway), it is surprisingly human-looking.

Also, there are the Cetaceans; who share much of the intelligence of the dolphins; and much of their physiology such as sonar capability, specialized breathing holes, and the lay-out of their fins (which suggest strong similarities to evolved land mammal limbs; as can be seen in the skeletons).

It would be pretty amazing to have such parallel developments in evolution, on different planets... Or else all the cetaceans and porpoises came here together, and had very similar DNA and evolution to Earth species? Or possibly engineered DNA, i guess.

Who knows

All i know is, that when you watch that above linked video, it is hard to think of these beings as "dumb animals" that are here for us to harvest as we please... Most of them that are killed, dying in ways that could be remedied without much trouble or cost.

I think it is possible to have sentience in totally non-technological species (especially with creatures who don't have hands, opposing thumbs, or anything similar to use).. Our definition of it always seems to include technology, but what if there is something equally as good as technology, that we don't even understand? ... Something that is based on what many would call "ESP"... That can accomplish all the needed things that technology does for us without all the pollution, destruction, and endless struggle?

What if through our incredible hubris, our ignorant self-centeredness, we destroy them before learning this incredible secret from them? ...This way to master the universe without technology?

Who is the "dumb animal" then lol?

[Aaron]

Dolphin bubble rings

Jibbguy,

Not sure if you've seen this but these air ring bubbles the dolphins
make are INCREDIBLE!

YouTube - Dolphin play bubble rings

[Kevin]

Here is an excellent vid:

YouTube - Life: Bottlenose dolphins mud-ring feeding

This would appear to me to be dolphins adapting to a changing situation in food supply, by using their intelligence (the fisheries in South Florida are crashing rapidly now). Is that a definition of "sentience"?

One thing we should remember, is that our own "brand" of sentience may not be the "universal" brand

True story:

3 days ago , while sailing off Key West with my visiting sister in my 22' boat, i was telling her this story (...explaining the above YouTube). JUST AS I WAS TELLING HER THIS, at least 5 dolphins came up to the boat, swimming around us in a circle over and over; getting very close to the bow of the boat as they did so (we were heeled over and cruising along pretty good at that point). They stayed with us for about 10 mins, and my sister got some great footage (which when she gets home will send me for posting here). I got to look one dead in the eye as he/she went by.. The entire thing was thrilling beyond words.

WEIRD coincidence that they would come just then, lol... It has been pretty rare that i see them in such numbers, or that they circle the boat (often i will see a pair or two off in the distance during a day sailing). In over 20 years sailing in the area (or anywhere for that matter), this was the FIRST time i was ever treated to such a show

I am almost inclined to think they KNEW i was talking about them, and that i was suggesting to my sister they were "sentient beings"... And so came to make a point, lol... But that could be stretching it a bit.

There are many unique and interesting stories about animals, like the tamed elephant in Indonesia who suddenly grabbed her Mahout with her truck and threw him up onto her back, then ran uphill as fast as she could... Only a few minutes before the terrible tsunami hit several years ago... Saving his life.

Are marine mammals, and perhaps other animals, "sentient beings"?

Main Entry: sen·tient
Pronunciation: \ˈsen(t)-sh(ē-)ənt, ˈsen-tē-ənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
Date: 1632

1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2 : aware
3 : finely sensitive in perception or feeling


Based on the webster definition above and the video link you posted, I would say the dolphins are most definitely sentient beings.

Many years ago I TRV'ed a deer. Specifically I TRV'ed his brain/mind during the time between when he was shot and died, about a 10 second period.

It was amazing.

Without looking up the session data I will share some highlights that have stuck with me all these years:

He immediately thought about the different possible escape routes he could take...which trail, which one was closest, etc.

Then he realized he had been tricked.

He knew he should not be out in the open field at this time of day.

He realized that the doe urine trail he was following was a trick and not from an actual doe...he had had some doubts about it earlier, but now he knew for sure.

There was a bunch more data...but the above is what I vividly recall.

Definitely showing a thought process (consciousness) much more evolved than I would have guessed.

I have also TRV'ed dogs, wolfs and horses (none of them being killed) and they all had a higher level of consciousness than normally ascribed to them.

This is a huge subject...I know there is a post somewhere on the forum here referencing some studies of dogs and cats knowing that their "owners" are on the way home when they are still miles away.

[Nadda]

That is soo amazing. I didnt even know you could do that with air...It didnt even float upwards...amazing


As far as evolution, I would think all planetary evolution would be the same as far as each beings structure. Size and skin would vary i guess on gravity and atmosphere.

In my mind, i dont believe animals would evolve into a creature with 8 legs and be superior in intelligence compared to humans. Evolution revolves around efficiency as well as survival. If intelligent creatures had brains that took millennia to evolve dont you think over that time span they would have realized that they needed a human form or at least fingers, to build shelter for themselves, to ensure ultimate survival.

If humans were theoretically forced to live under water, I would imagine they would evolve fins and gills, however to lose their hands in my mind would be DeEvolution. Dolphins cant build nets, thats why they have to create mud rings. If they had hands, they could builds nets and much much more.

I think this is also why when you think of the word alien, the universal form is human looking. The extraterrestrials that have evolved to obtain supreme intelligence have also evolved into the most efficient form for survival. The human form. We have the intelligence to exist anywhere, and the capability to travel anywhere, in the universe.


This is from my very short perspective of life, god only knows what really happens during millennia of time. These are just my far out assumptions.

[rickoff]

it is hard to think of these beings as "dumb animals" that are here for us to harvest as we please... Most of them that are killed, dying in ways that could be remedied without much trouble or cost.

What if through our incredible hubris, our ignorant self-centeredness, we destroy them before learning this incredible secret from them? ...This way to master the universe without technology?

Who is the "dumb animal" then lol?

A few days ago I watched the video movie The Cove. It showed a cove in Japan where local fishermen herded dolphins in from the sea, closed the entrance to the cove with a large net, and then slaughtered them. They had been carrying this on for years, and selling the meat to area schools for use in school lunches. The Japanese government, and local police, were complicit and agressively worked to keep intruders away from the slaughter area. The person who made this documentary film was the trainer on the TV series Flipper. He loved these animals, but after one of the dolphins of the Flipper series died (the animal chose to die, he claims, by refusing to take another breath), he decided that dolphins should never be made captive. Since then, he has actively dedicated his life to freeing captive dolphins worldwide. Aside from the gruesome slaughter scenes, the movie showed some beautifully done segments that really captured the magnificence of the dolphins. A must watch, if you haven't seen it already. There is no doubt that these are highly intelligent creatures who have thoughts, feelings, and a wide range of special abilities.

[ImBill]

Here are some of my thoughts engendered by the above posts. If consciousness continues after physical death, what difference does it make if a body can live on both land and sea or be able to move to a different planet? If an incarnate being lives in harmony with his surroundings (unlike man who constantly tries to manipulate and exploit his surroundings), who is to say that being is less evolved?

Nadda, why do dolphins have to build mud rings? (Sorry, missed watching the video before I posted. I've seen them do the same thing with air bubbles.) Why would they have to build nets? What they do seems to work just fine. If they only consume what they need to survive, what would be the use for stockpiling fish in nets? From my observations, they are perfectly adapted to the environment in which they live and are perfectly capable of harvesting the bounty of the ocean to get what they need. They also seem very happy. IMO, the only thing they could possibly need hands for is to build weapons to defend themselves from our selfish slaughter of them (which they may already be developing but the timescale required may be too long for us to notice?). They may be developing stronger sonar to make a loud enough noise to scare away fishing vessels, or razor sharp appendages on one or more of their fins to cut through netting. Nature has ingenious ways of helping the more vulnerable to defeat their adversaries. It doesn't necessarily have to be hands and opposable thumbs. Ants outnumber and outweigh us. Couldn't it be that they are way more advanced and evolved than we are? They build incredible shelters and will most likely survive anything nature can throw at them more easily than we can. I'd be willing to bet that if we decide to migrate to another planet, they'll find a way to hitch a ride.

Actually, we don't have the means to travel "anywhere in the universe" that I know of, at least not physically. Also, what makes you think actual extraterrestials are all humanoid in appearance? It's much easier for Hollywood to portray all aliens as humanoid because a costume will fit better and it will be easier to make the "alien" move in what we would feel would be a natural way. Some would argue that our ego is what makes us assume/assign humanoid thoughts/features/actions to alien beings and God. And, I would argue that the question of whether mankind as we know it today evolved or was seeded by beings from another planet has yet to be fully answered. There is strong evidence on both sides.

I read a story told by the person who owned the dog that during the period he owned the dog, he was living with his mother. They both worked odd hours and had other interests that brought them home at different times which they did not communicate with each other. He noticed that his mom would always have something warm (coffee or food) fixed for him when he got home and finally asked her how she knew when to fix these things for him. She told him that the dog always went to the door about 15 minutes before he showed up. He started paying attention then and realized the dog did the same thing before his mom came home. They verified that often they would be coming from different directions and that there was no way for the dog to hear the car coming or anything similar. He cited one incident when his mom was out of town and came home a day or two earlier than he expected. The dog knew by something other than what could be attributed to the normal five senses.

[ewizard]

I'd say there are a few problems with the suggestion dolphins are "transplants" from another planet.

Ever go to a Natural History Museum (such as the one that is part of the Smithsonian), and see a skeleton of a dolphin / porpoise? Besides the scull (which is not that all different anyway), it is surprisingly human-looking.

Also, there are the Cetaceans; who share much of the intelligence of the dolphins; and much of their physiology such as sonar capability, specialized breathing holes, and the lay-out of their fins (which suggest strong similarities to evolved land mammal limbs; as can be seen in the skeletons).

It would be pretty amazing to have such parallel developments in evolution, on different planets... Or else all the cetaceans and porpoises came here together, and had very similar DNA and evolution to Earth species? Or possibly engineered DNA, i guess.

Who knows

snip /\ ....

There are things I've read that say humans were also brought here long ago. Try searching for info on Anunaki and gold. IMO there are a lot of holes in Darwin's theory of evolution. Alien intervention in human evolution would explain a lot of things. Don't tell anyone I said that though

[jibbguy]

So far there is only one significant "hole" in the Theory of Evolution that i am aware of (although this is certainly a hot topic in science nowadays)...

And that is a motor flagellum seen in certain cells, that could not have evolved independently because they are literally rotating motors with 5 separate "parts" to them (the flagellum arm rotates like a propeller.. and there is an electrical impulse "Rotor assy" and a "stator assy" that powers it)...

All of which must operate perfectly for the "motor" to work... In other words there could be no "logical progression" with this motor, because any interim stage of evolution would have been useless to the cell's needs... So somehow, the whole "assy" must have sprang forth simultaniously... "somehow" is the key word here lol.

There are other parts of cellular make-up that are claimed to be non-evolutionary as well, however there have also been rather good debunkings on them which i found convincing; or at least enough that it is a "wash". But so far the "motor flagellum" has not been sufficiently explained away in my book without "Intelligent Design".. And i can't imagine how they will

That one is a very sticky problem for scientists to answer.

Most of the people i've talked to about this are "black-and-whiter's"... Which i alway find depressing lol. It is not LOGICAL to claim NO EVOLUTION. I am afraid the data exists in huge reams for it; and denying it is rather Quixotic. Is it ALL EXCLUSIVELY "evolution"? That is the true question, imo.

[ewizard]

I used to attend a 'Circle of Angels' given by Paula Peterson and knew her well. You may find her web site of interest here: Earthcode: Dolphin-Human Connection This particular link discusses the Human Dolphin connection. I guess human DNA is closer to Dolphin DNA than any other (including apes). Also this link on her site discusses another possiblity on the origins of humans in the Bock Saga link here. Just one of many interesting takes on this I've seen.

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Jibb;

Here are some more examples for you that blow holes in evolutionary theory;

YouTube - Melipona Bee Defies Evolution

Amazing Animals that Defy Evolution

YouTube - Bombardier Beetle Defies Evolution

Al