U.S. on Brink of Catastrophic Collapse

[rickoff]

Reply to noises;133509 Part 2 of 2

Let me guess, you neither know nor care what crimes the ICC has jurisdiction over. Right? Well, for the sake of more flexible minds who'll read this, they are genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and the crime of aggression against the population. They are the only crimes under ICC jurisdiction. There's no provision under International law to have any say in the day to day running of any country. You think otherwise, obviously, probably because the people who control the media and the government obviously don't like the idea of their crimes being tried. But no, international courts are for dealing with soldiers who break the universal rules of engagement and the officers who order them to do so, and for rulers who mistreat their people, and that's all they have jurisdiction over.

Why even bother to guess? That is just ridiculous in the extreme when you neither know me, what I stand for or against, or what I have knowledge of. I made no mention at all of the ICC in my previous post, so your reading comprehension would appear to be somewhat flawed. It seems that you draw your conclusion based upon my statement, concerning the UN, that "The last thing that any patriotic and freedom loving American would want to see happen is to have our nation under control of international laws established by the UN." I'll stand firm on that statement. Regarding the ICC, its supporters argue that the ICC will deter genocide and other atrocities, but this flies in the face of reality. Many repressive governments have signed the Rome Statute but continue to commit atrocities against civilians. The Sudanese government, under Omar al-Bashir for example, embroiled itself in a civil war against Christians and others from the nation's southern region, and Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe encouraged his supporters to murder political opponents and seize their property. Both of these tyrants remain at the head of their governments and, quite clearly, such regimes do not fear an ICC. They are more likely to see it as a useful vehicle for spurious accusations against the United States and its allies. In short, my opinion is that the United States should not sign the ICC treaty or any other treaty that weakens US sovereignty or violates the core principles on which its Constitution based system is founded.

So, even if you're unaware of the facts as to what you're rejecting, what you're telling me is the US should be free to commit genocide. The US should be free to commit war crimes. The US should have free reign to abuse it's own citizens, without there being any consequences ever, except maybe getting voted out of office. But the army guys can commit war crimes with impunity. That's what you're advocating by thumbing your nose at the ICC. And you're saying only the US people, who either have no control over their government or no human decency are the only people who should be able to punish a crime of genocide by the US. Really?

There you go again, interjecting suppositions based upon whatever scenario or assumption drifts into your mind, rather than upon anything I stated in my previous post. Let me just emphasize that the American people are nearly unanimous in their opposition to war, find genocide to be totally repugnant, and have historically led the world in responding to humanitarian needs. And while I do believe that action against corrupt government officials should be settled at the ballot box if at all possible, Americans do reserve their right to use of the bullet box when all other means have been exhausted. I am all for bringing criminal charges against any of the criminal elite, including both Bush and Obama, and others within their regimes, but within the American justice system. I know it isn't likely to happen as long as corrupt career politicians remain in office and are the ones responsible for initiating such actions, but I also recognize the reality that the ICC would have no chance of bringing to an end the career of any US government or military leader when they don't even have enough clout to force a murderous third world dictator to submit to their authority.

What you're advocating is giving the US military and government free reign to go ahead and commit the next holocaust if it so pleases, and for afterwards, to thumb it's nose at the world?

Oops! There you go again, reading between the lines and inserting your fictionalized understanding of what I advocate. I said absolutely nothing of the kind, and if you would take the time to read my many posts within the American Ruling Class thread before spouting off like this, you would realize that what I actually advocate is anything but what you claim.

The ICC, by the way, is based on Norway, and has nothing to do with the UN, which is based in New York. Opposite sides of the world. Different charters entirely. One is an evil octopus operated out of the USA which is trying to establish world government and export American corporatocracy, the other tries war crimes. Just in case you had the two confused, the ICC is the one that tries warcrimes.

Time to expose some false claims in your statement above:

• The ICC is neither based in Norway, nor "on Norway" as you claim. In actuality, the ICC is based both in Hague, the Netherlands, and in New York.
• Contrary to your claim, the ICC has a great deal to do with the UN. In fact, it was the UN General Assembly which convened a conference in Rome in June 1998, with the aim of finalizing a treaty regarding the ICC, and which adopted the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Also, it is the corrupt UN Security Council which refers cases to the ICC.
• Don't worry, as I am not confused, but it would certainly appear that you are.

I won't waste any more of my time responding to your nonsensical claims, so there is really no point in you ranting on and on. If you really want to know what I believe about something, then simply ask me in the American Ruling Class thread, but don't go on assuming that you know what is in my mind, or in the minds and hearts of the American public.

Rick

[noises]

I just got schooled in geography by an American. You're right, I was wrong, the ICC HQ is in the Netherlands. And the IMF HQ is in Washington, and the UN HQ is in New York. Anyway...

Assumptions? I'm just going on the evidence. If a citizen in my national community declared "if any one of my family is arrested and held for a criminal trial, we're going in guns blazing to get them back out, and you can't stop us." the rest of us would stand up and say "uh, no, sorry, you don't get to be a law unto yourself, at the expense of the rest of the community."

Yet that's exactly what the US tells the international community, if you take any one of ours into custody and hold them for war crimes at the Hague, we'll go in with guns blazing to get them back out. Slightly intimidating, considering the US has the largest stockpile of nuclear and biological weapons on earth.

And it's not just people in other countries who understand this is unacceptable. Here's a list of groups within the US who signed the last letter to US congress asking the article 98 exemption be repealed.

Americans for Democratic Action

Amnesty International USA

Better World Campaign

Center for American Progress

Church Women United

Citizens for Global Solutions

Council for a Livable World

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Friends’ Committee on National Legislation

Genocide Intervention Network

Human Rights First

Human Rights Watch

Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns

National Association of Social Workers

National Education Association

National Association of Evangelicals

Open Society Policy Center

Peace Action and Peace Action Education Fund

Presbyterian Church USA

United Church of Christ, Justice and Witness Ministries

United Methodist Church, General Board of Church and Society

United Nations Association , USA

Universal Human Rights Network

Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations

World Organization for Human Rights, USA

Article 98/ Bilateral Immunity Agreements | Human Rights


So don't give me that "most patriotic Americans" spin. Most patriotic Americans are ignorant of the fact their government currently has carte blanche in the international legal community to commit war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity, and of the ones who do know, most disagree that it's a desirable state of affairs and are working towards positive change - against any resistance to international accountability, foreign or domestic. More power to them.

[rickoff]

If a citizen in my national community....

And just what community are you from? You still haven't answered that question.

So don't give me that "most patriotic Americans" spin.

I didn't. That's your own spin. I never wrote the phrase quoted above. Be very careful to get it correct if you ever quote me again.

Most patriotic Americans are ignorant....

Do you really believe that? If so, I feel sorry for you. A truly patriotic American is not simply an imbecile standing on a street corner waving an American flag. It is a person who takes the time to study and understand our founding documents. It is a person who loves the rights, freedoms, and liberties that these documents grant, and who is willing to die to protect and preserve them for future generations. It is a person who is not afraid to question the authority of leadership that has gone astray of the ideals set forth by our Founding Fathers, and who actively takes a stand against such leadership, demanding a return to our founding principles of freedom and justice for all.

[noises]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Originally Posted by rickoff:
any patriotic and freedom loving American

whatever. Morally bankrupt teapartiers who simply want to not pay taxes, have no social repsonisbilty and shirk accountability for their war crimes and dress all that up as "defending freedom" don't rate high on my list of people to respond seriously to, since all I'll do is fight tooth and nail with them on ethical grounds. Didn't you tell me you wouldn't be replying to me any more? We should do that.

As for where I'm from, I was born in Cuba, went to school in the USSR, attended university in Palestine, did my paramilitary training in Afghanistan, converted to Islam in Iran and now live in North Korea, where I own and manage a very successful and rather lucrative Dong-Feng supper-carrier killer missile factory.

[rickoff]

Morally bankrupt teapartiers who simply want to not pay taxes, have no social repsonisbilty and shirk accountability for their war crimes and dress all that up as "defending freedom" don't rate high on my list of people to respond seriously to, since all I'll do is fight tooth and nail with them on ethical grounds.

Your overabundance of ignorance is overwhelming, and shows that you know absolutely nothing about the TEA Party. TEA Party patriots, whose objective is to take back our country and return it to the just principles outlined in our founding documents, are standing firmly on high moral ground. They are working men and women who are already paying more than their fair share of taxes - hence the name "TEA," which is an acronym for Taxed Enough Already. They are a group of people noted for their peaceful protest rallies against government abuse. They sprang into action because they realized that no other large group of Americans was ready or willing to bear enough social responsibility to take a stand against our tyrannical government. TEA party people are law-abiding citizens who would neither support nor defend war criminals. You had better hope that the TEA partiers succeed at dethroning the corrupt politicians and defending justice and liberty for all, or you may soon become their next target for domination.

Didn't you tell me you wouldn't be replying to me any more?

This isn't a reply - it is a lesson in truth.

As for where I'm from, I was born in Cuba, went to school in the USSR, attended university in Palestine, did my paramilitary training in Afghanistan, converted to Islam in Iran and now live in North Korea, where I own and manage a very successful and rather lucrative Dong-Feng supper-carrier killer missile factory.

That doesn't make much sense. Why would you want to destroy a supper-carrier which could be on its way to feeding supper to a multitude of hungry people who might otherwise die of starvation? Sounds rather inhumane of you. Shame, shame on you.

[noises]

Speaking of lessons in truth, in regard to your false assumption/ flawed argument no patriotic American would support the ICC, these ones do and so do those who support them both financially and in ethic. USAforICC | USA For the International Criminal Court They've been around since before ASPA, too.

Whois Lookup - Domain Names Search, Registration, & Availability | Whois.net


Domain ID: D79796983-LROR
Domain Name:USAFORICC.ORG
Created On:15-Nov-2001 19:28:32 UTC
Last Updated On:16-Sep-2010 07:06:07 UTC
Expiration Date:15-Nov-2012 19:28:32 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Network Solutions LLC (R63-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:17337517-NSI
Registrant Name:Citizens for Global Solutions
Registrant Organization:Citizens for Global Solutions
Registrant Street1:Citizens for Global Solutions
Registrant Street2:418 7th Street, S.E.
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Washington
Registrant State/Province: DC
Registrant Postal Code:20003
Registrant Country:US

The reason we're never going to agree, and the reason why I mock your ultra-nationalist right wing truth; is because everyone else's rights matter as much to me as my own do, whereas you only care about yourself and those you think deserve rights. Which based on your idea of what's funny would no doubt be determined on the basis of nationality and religion. Which makes you both a racial and a religious bigot. Pick on typos all you want, it's not going to make you a better human being, or make the US less of an international pariah to the people of the world.

[Nadda]

whatever. Morally bankrupt teapartiers who simply want to not pay taxes, have no social repsonisbilty and shirk accountability for their war crimes and dress all that up as "defending freedom" don't rate high on my list of people to respond seriously to, since all I'll do is fight tooth and nail with them on ethical grounds. Didn't you tell me you wouldn't be replying to me any more? We should do that.

Have you ever even been to an american tea party? lol amazing you know exactly who and what all of them are. You appear to believe in nanny states, and that the government must hold everyone hands in life, while tea partiers believe in personal responsibility, that each man is a man of his own. That each human being has a equal oppertunity to achieve happiness. If you take personal responsibility out of choices in life no system of government will ever succeed in the long term. Its common sense. Complete socialism sounds great when you write it down on paper, but its bound to fail when it governs hundreds of millions or billions of different types people from all spectrums of life. The social programs we already have implemented are failing now. You claim austrialia is doing great with their extensive social programs but again i remind you america has individual states with bigger populations than austrailia, socially managing 22 millions people is a different task than over 300 million people. Especially when considering the great amount of diversity in america. America is the last place anyone could label as a whole. So comparing that system and crying foul because america isnt taking that route is a moot comparison. Maybe you should think about that first before insulting millions of different patriots, by calling them morally bankrupt people.

Do you really believe that? If so, I feel sorry for you. A truly patriotic American is not simply an imbecile standing on a street corner waving an American flag. It is a person who takes the time to study and understand our founding documents. It is a person who loves the rights, freedoms, and liberties that these documents grant, and who is willing to die to protect and preserve them for future generations. It is a person who is not afraid to question the authority of leadership that has gone astray of the ideals set forth by our Founding Fathers, and who actively takes a stand against such leadership, demanding a return to our founding principles of freedom and justice for all.

+1
Very well put posts rickoff. You continue to hit the nail on the head.

[Nadda]

The reason we're never going to agree, and the reason why I mock your ultra-nationalist right wing truth; is because everyone else's rights matter as much to me as my own do, whereas you only care about yourself and those you think deserve rights. Which based on your idea of what's funny would no doubt be determined on the basis of nationality and religion. Which makes you both a racial and a religious bigot.

As rickoff said, if you werent abundantly ignorant as to what the tea party actually stands for you would realize that it supports Equal Rights to all human beings in the pursuit of happiness. Reguardless of race, heritage or religion ect...People like rickoff would go down fighting to ensure every man woman and child recieves equal rights in america. Maybe you have a misguided view on what a right actually is. Rights cannot be given, only taken away. The Bill of Rights does not grant us our rights it limits the government from taking them away. If governments have the power to provide you with rights then the government has the power to recind your rights. Governments shouldnt have the power to do either. The tea party stands for inalienable rights for everyone. As i believe does rickoff which makes him the furthest thing from a racial and religous biggot...

[Mad Scientist]

There is no question that America has lots of faults and that we have a tendency to stick or nose into other people problems. Like removing two-bit dictators from mid-eastern countries and then turnaround and put in our own hand picked dictators. Naturally this is all done in the name of providing freedom for these poor oppressed people. So just who is making these type of policy decisions as they are certainly not called for by our constitution?

As many are slowing becoming aware there are a group of bankers and other moneyed people who are actually running the show. Their only goal it to make money and gain power and thus having the world in a constant state of war is an excellent way to do both.

So why have so many Americans put up with this behavior? Simple over the last century they have been brainwashed and dumbed down into believing that the federal government is all powerful. It’s not. That it is the government’s job to take care of all their basic needs. To protect them any real or imagined boogiemen. Once having implanted this kind of mind set in people it is easy then to get them to go along with just about anything. All they have to do is say that such and such groups, or whatever, is a threat to their well being. These people can then be counted on to turn around and demand that that government do something, anything, to save them from this newly created evil.

Unfortunately their brainwashing has not been effective on 100% of the population. There are the libertarians, the John Bircher’s, the Tea partiers and others who have read the constitution and have said “Hay! Wait a minute! Something is wrong here! There is nothing in here that gives the government the right to do half the things it is doing.” Slowly this word is getting out and it is scaring the powers that be. So they have been stepping their efforts for total control over the people.

But by doing this it is causing even the brainwashed, slowly being boiled frogs, to start to see that something is seriously wrong. Like why am I asked to take off my shoes, to be irradiated and sexually grouped just to fly on a plane? Why is the government telling me what kind of drugs I’m allowed to take or not take? Or what kind of food I’m allowed to eat. Why am I being monitored when I go to a public event? Why is the military being used to do random highway searches? Why are there even random highway searches in the first place? After awhile the “excuse” that this is all being done for our own good starts to wear thin.

So we are in an interesting race. Time will tell if the powers that be will be able to finish boiling their brainwashed frogs or if the frogs wake up and say “hell no, we’re not going down this path”. It only takes a few percent of us frogs to wake up change course and the rest will follow. At that point we are unstoppable and this truly scares the hell out of the powers that be.

[Nadda]

@Mad Scientist, Yeah your absolutly right. It reminds me of the gas hike from 2 years ago, i believe it was. If the price of gas jumped from 1.50 to 4.50 overnight, for no apparent reason, there would probably be outrage and protests in the streets. But when they slowly raise the price 20 cents or so per month, by 6-12 months later the price was 4.50 and i dont remember hearing any serious outrage or protests over it from people.

its the whole concept of action over time. Slowly chip away at a statue of everything that people stand for, make the chips small enough and people wont even see it happening. Until one day the entire statue is gone.