Health Care

[future pather]

Trickle down as a concept is pretty popular here but it does not literally work when you take into account the reality of the actual population and dollar flow.

As my other post shows, when rich people get more $ it does not end up back in society.

If the real life statistics were different it could possibly work. But that would be a case where the "rich" really didn't have enough to buy what they wanted in the first place and then getting more $ to spend on things that put that $ back into society.

With the current conditions the rich already have enough to have bought those things before they got more $ which ends up getting sequestered out of society.

[jibbguy]

The system we have now IS "socialism", just designed to benefit the large corporations who think they own the world, not the population. they get everything they want, don't suffer any real competition, and control the government through graft. They DO NOT want to lose the weapon of providing healthcare to their employees; as a means of holding it over their heads while they generally lower pay and benefits and demand more from them at the same time.

There is no reason to fear going farther into debt if there was single payer not for profit healthcare in the US... On average healthcare will cost less than now, not more. As it is, 1 dollar out of every 3 spent in healthcare goes to the private insurers; who make a profit from NOT providing a service. They are parasites, and most of the world has already recognized this and so have done away with their dirty dealings which are psychopathic, wholly selfish, and against the betterment of our society.

The system in the US is already more than 60% "socialized", we have the WORST of both worlds because the government cannot use their buying power to force the pharmaceutical corps and hospitals to charge an honest price (based on "cost plus" to still give them a decent profit, but not be able to capitalize on the misery of others as they do now)... Like the government could do if we had SPNFP (as Canada does now to keep pharm prices very low).

For those who sneer at "socialized medicine" i remind them that the V.A. System is good enough for our military veterans, and actually works quite well. The VA also cares about Preventive Medicine, which privates DO NOT. And the doctors & other providers there, who have kept my father alive for several years now; are caring, dedicated, and make good money... But they DO NOT prescribe crap drugs cause they were told to by some damned pharm salesman.

Imagine what would happen if the government, who was paying the bill, said that in order to save money (and much illness), non-natural oils, fluoride, aspartame and other artificial sweeteners that are very bad for us, MSG, and genetically altered foods had to go.... This would save them lots of money in the long run, and finally end the control of our food and medicines by MONEY AND PROFITS and not by reason, science, and the Rule of Law.

Besides, when you look at our heavy manufacturing, which has suffered so much over the last 30 years, we are paying an unfair tax to our competitors, who like Japan and Germany, have had working universal healthcare for many decades. In America, over $1,500 of the cost of a new car goes for the workers' healthcare... In Japan, it is only about $30 !! WTF, we are getting cheated by these same jerks who always yell about "free trade". What a joke.

And they lie about taxes: In these countries with universal healthcare, when you add up ALL taxes, we are taxed THE SAME as they are. Next time they pull that, ask them to add in state income and sales taxes, local taxes, and property taxes. And watch them SHUT UP

The only reason we have not gotten rid of these rotten parasites years ago is, they OWN this country, and YOU who support them along with it (or at least that's what they believe, lol). Do you like being an economic slave to corporations? Then continue to allow them to run EVERYTHING of importance in your world... Easy socialism for THEM... Hard-scrabble capitalism for us.

Personally, i would rather have the opportunity to vote the people who run everything out of office, instead of waiting for them them to retire off the Exxon Mobile, G.E. , or Phizer Board of Directors with their billion -dollar golden parachutes.

But hey, to each their own

[future pather]

. . . . trickle down is charity or socialism and that obviously isn't popular in America.

Just for clarification, the way trickle down is used in America is as a theory that the richer rich people get, the better the economy will get bc their spending will "trickle down" to everyone else.

It's a nice idea and often used to support things like tax breaks for the rich, but just doesn't end up working that way in our society as explained further above.

Socialism would be considered trickle up the way we talk about it. Spend some funds on programs for the needy and see everyone benefit.

[future pather]

For those who sneer at "socialized medicine" i remind them that the V.A. System is good enough for our military veterans, and actually works quite well. The VA also cares about Preventive Medicine, which privates DO NOT. And the doctors & other providers there, who have kept my father alive for several years now; are caring, dedicated, and make good money... But they DO NOT prescribe crap drugs cause they were told to by some damned pharm salesman.

Yes the VA health system is run by the US government currently. Run for your lives people, lol.

It is a successful system and does have the strength to get reasonable rates from big pharm.

Medicare is also run by the government and used to be very good, now is ok (thanks to changes during Bush's admin) and still considered a jackpot situation compared to all the rest of us right now.

People who don't understand that are now at town halls opposing health care reform bc they don't want Medicare taken away from them, lol. Senators are having to explain, uh sorry but Medicare is already run by the government.

[Nadda]

Medicare is also run by the government and used to be very good, now is ok (thanks to changes during Bush's admin) and still considered a jackpot situation compared to all the rest of us right now. .

Yes Medicare is so great everyone that it is projected to run dry in 10-15 years. Thats exactly what we all need.

"THE TRUSTEES of the nation's Medicare trust funds have just released their 2007 annual report, and once again the news is grave. As the result of health care costs increasing at a much greater rate than wages, the hospital insurance trust fund is projected to be exhausted by 2019. Indeed, Medicare is in far worse shape than the Social Security trust funds, which are also ailing but are not projected to run dry until 2041"

All health coverage is garbage if the health care costs arnt capped.

How would he be opposing while not being allowed to? That statement is ridiculous.

If people who protest theyre concerns, are labeled as "angry mobs" and as "Un-American" theyre opposition is obviously disreguarded by the congress. If opposition from these so called "angry mobs" is ignored, that undoubtedly means theyre opposition isnt allowed. In the context that it wont make a difference. Your response was ridiculous

Yeah and people NEVER take advantage of capitalistic systems.

I guess two wrongs must make everything just peachy lol. With Bush and Obama rewarding all these capitalistic theives by ensuring theyre businesses never fail with Multi-Billion dollar paydays, the people who take advantage of our current system would otherwise have a price to pay. Its known as BANKRUPTCY



Jibbguy -

For those who sneer at "socialized medicine" i remind them that the V.A. System is good enough for our military veterans

And i remind you that people suffer while waiting on several month long waiting lists just for operations that they can recieve here in america within a week. That is Not the solution to our current problems. I will always sneer at socialized medicine. For good reason.

There is no doubt rampent corruption within our corporate system. My question is, why is the government so afraid of reforming our corporate system and our healthcare system without feeling the need to take Ownership of each industry. Money is power. There is no doubt about that. We pay the government to manage Our nation. To manage the corporate system, to reform areas that are being manipulated. Its theyre JOB to stop the corruption!

the government cannot use their buying power to force the pharmaceutical corps and hospitals to charge an honest price

The reason they get away with the insane prices they charge (which my insurance paid 30 Grand for me to sleep in a bed, no IV no nothing) is exactly that. My insurance didnt hesitate to pay that price to them. In a capitalistic society, what people charge for a service is within what the consumer is willing pay. Not rocket science. So when the consumer will pay you whatever you ask....guess what...the price will skyrocket

Its the government job to fix this as it is. None of us would disagree if the government capped what our local insurance has the ability to pay. Sure thats not a "capitalistic" decision but we all know and see the greedy corruption...It not rocket science either. If not that road, there is no doubt MANY other options to solving this problem of overcharging.

The governments only solution is to make us Theyre "slave", instead of us being the corporations "slave".

How about nobody enslaves us? Is that even possible?

[future pather]

And i remind you that people suffer while waiting on several month long waiting lists just for operations that they can recieve here in america within a week. That is Not the solution to our current problems. I will always sneer at socialized medicine. For good reason.

I believe you've got the scenario completely reversed. The way it's handled by US insurance companies is to simply delay authorizing treatment until the customer has died. There have been many many cases of this recently. So there's really no insurance in the insurance.

Plus he was actually talking about the US VA system which works very well.

[future pather]

To say nothing of the large and ever increasing # of uninsured people here who are turned away from hospitals and drs offices, or never bother trying to go bc they know they can't afford it.

[future pather]

Yes Medicare is so great everyone that it is projected to run dry in 10-15 years. Thats exactly what we all need.

This is exactly WHY we need reform.

How reform with strengthen Medicare :

YouTube - Reform Reality Check: Your Medicare is safe, and stronger with reform

[future pather]

How reform will DECREASE rationing, not increase it:

YouTube - Reform Reality Check: Reform will stop "rationing" - not increase it

[future pather]

If people who protest theyre concerns, are labeled as "angry mobs" and as "Un-American" theyre opposition is obviously disreguarded by the congress. If opposition from these so called "angry mobs" is ignored, that undoubtedly means theyre opposition isnt allowed. In the context that it wont make a difference. Your response was ridiculous

People have the freedom to call (free speech) you what they want and ignore you if they so choose. This does not encompass not allowing you to oppose health care reform.

Not allowing means you get locked up or killed or are physically kept from demonstrating, etc.

It is ridiculous, and an insult to people living in the second situation, to not know the difference.

[Mozaar]

I still believe in a spiritual based solution.

We should all have a healthy conscienceness and I really believe it is picking up steam in this country. If left alone, we will have fewer cases of obesity, diabeties, heart failure just to name a few, because people want it and currently they can control it.

[Nadda]

Obama and the white house talk so much BULL. I'm sorry but if he wanted to stop the mis-information he should shut his own trap.

Government insurance will have a pool far greater than any private insurance could possibly have, which will create a domino effect with the end game being everyone under Obamacare. We all know the government doesnt have "Monopoly Restrictions".

His pool will get bigger and bigger while ours will get smaller and smaller and the prices will reflect that.

Obama isnt dumb he knows what he needs to say to get this thing through, once this is implemented there wont be any going back. He knows that.


Your link on medicare had 10 seconds of actual talk of reform...Which was Obama saying, "oh yeah medicare is great just need some reform to stop the waste".... How about actually doing that and stopping it from going broke before he decides the whole nation needs it. Is that really so hard to ask for??

I believe you've got the scenario completely reversed.

No hun, you do. Your taking an extreme occurance and comparing that to the waiting list millions of canadians are faced with. None the less, both realities are truely horrific.

You obviously dont understand the context in which i was using the word "allow" so theres no need to debate that any furthur.

How reform will DECREASE rationing, not increase it

Obamas government doesnt seem to understand the effect 50 million people have. They love to throw that number out when talking about how we can help them but they seem to forget that number when the word rationing comes around.

I agree rationing will stop in the form of coverage, but dear lord you had better pray you dont get any form of illness that needs medical attention anytime soon. Otherwise you'll just be another number on the list.

Personally my problem is that this is not something tax payers should be paying for. Its not the america i thought i grew up in. In the america i knew, I was responsible for me and you were responsible for you. I shouldnt have to cover the millions of dead beat bums who choose not to work and who choose not to take care of theyre own lives. So many americans are just naive and think those type of people dont exist, but the sad truth is, they do. I live in the inner-city the dependancy on the government, and on welfare, is simply insane. Not just with my neighbors but with my own family. Helping these type of people will merely grow the dependancy they have.

God bless all of you who work for a living and actually have dreams of being successful. your the heart of america.

[future pather]

Government insurance will have a pool far greater than any private insurance could possibly have, which will create a domino effect with the end game being everyone under Obamacare. We all know the government doesnt have "Monopoly Restrictions".

IF people CHOOSE a government option it will be because they feel it has MORE TO OFFER than private insurance. How is that bad?

If it is so much better that private insurance can't make it, well that is telling.

If that happens and at any point the government plan becomes an undesirable plan, private insurance will become able again to compete.

More options are never bad . . . . unless you are the private insurance company. . .

His pool will get bigger and bigger while ours will get smaller and smaller and the prices will reflect that.

"Ours?" Oh I see that you are involved in health insurance. What can I say? I'd like you to stop overcharging me and everyone else in the country.

You obviously dont understand the context in which i was using the word "allow" so theres no need to debate that any furthur.

Yes you are right. If you are going to redefine words it is not with discussing with those who are using their common definition.

I agree rationing will stop in the form of coverage, but dear lord you had better pray you dont get any form of illness that needs medical attention anytime soon. Otherwise you'll just be another number on the list.

Well I can understand that attitude given you are private insurance and proud of your life and death leverage power, but it's surely not right or anything I support and exactly why I want change!

[Nadda]

wow you have issues...I have nothing to do with insurance.

"ours"
that word means
yours and mine = OURS

I am laughing so hard right now. Theyve been paying me for my posts. (Even the ones about the Psychic & Paranormal stuff)

[future pather]

"Our pool" meaning what then? People who choose to have health insurance vs. those who chose a public option?

Again, more options do not increase prices, they decrease them.

No need to throw insults bc we have different beliefs. I'm here to discuss, learn, share what I think. Just bc you are unclear in your explanation does not mean I have issues except issues with understanding you.