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**future pather** · 08-07-2009, 05:52 PM

Stephen,

You say you read the bill then you list a bunch of stuff that is not accurate about the bill.

I think the Senator is probably going to disregard your letter because of that.

I would read it again if I were you.

Jessica

**Mozaar** · 08-08-2009, 01:09 AM

I got an email posting the same stuff Stephen put there.
Honestly, I am not concerned about this bill. Its gonna pass and either we live with it or find somewhere else to live. I got no problem with that. I'm thinking Bahamas

Here is the link to the entire bill, happy reading

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:h3200ih.pdf

**Nadda** · 08-09-2009, 07:28 AM

Your right future panther, the Senator will find any excuse to ignore the letter.. afterall Mali obviously is just apart of the "angry mob" who isnt allowed to oppose. The insurance companies probably just paid him a couple bucks for that post alone LOL

Last I knew america is in one of the worst recessions since the great depression...but hey since the government has been doing such a bang up job, we need to immediately allow them to screw over our health care just like they did our housing markets, and our social security. Hell Medicare is going to go broke...how much more proof do people need...

Socialism Is Not The Answer. If you think it is, take yourself to europe.

Oh and who cares about debt.. my great great great gran-kids can pay for that off...as long as i can get a free ride right now.

Everyone who opposes this social engeneering we have to demand they reform healthcare the "Capitalist" way! Open up insurance competition to a national level. Make these companies compete by driving theyre prices down. There needs to be major tort reform within this "sue and get rich" society. None of those changes requires "Government Controlled Healthcare"

Mozaar, if you dont want socialized medicine, americans need your voice as well. It took republicans and democrats putting theyre foot down to stop this bill from being shoved down our throats. We finally sent the message to congress, they work for us, we dont work for them. Every voice makes a difference.

**Nadda** · 08-09-2009, 07:35 AM

The problem with socialism is that when you give things away for free, people will ALWAYS take advantage of it. I myself, have female family members who have gotten themselves knocked up just to live off the government. To have a free life.

Every female can have theyre rent paid for, monthly groceries and a check for each kid. I know the ugly truth first hand.

Socialism Doesnt Work. Anywhere.

**Mozaar** · 08-09-2009, 01:41 PM

The idea that you can get something for nothing is what this is all about.

Nobody wants to understand why health care costs are high anyways, they want immediate relief now.
I believe its how we think that is driving this agenda forward. Unfortunately, the opposition is clouded with anger and thus cannot produce a clear alternative.
I do not like the bill, I do not even like health insurance. I believe my health is my responsibility and since I attract good health, I do not need it force down on me. Thats what I do not like the most, the fact that I cannot ignore this. The bill forces me to accept it.

If we can spread the word on how we can change the world with our thoughts, we will be in a better place

**future pather** · 08-09-2009, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Nadda View Post

Your right future panther, the Senator will find any excuse to ignore the letter.. afterall Mali obviously is just apart of the "angry mob" who isnt allowed to oppose.

How would he be opposing while not being allowed to? That statement is ridiculous. He is allowed to oppose just like he is doing and you as well. Just like the people insurance companies have sent to the townhall meetings. Just like the millions of $ health insurance companies are spending to oppose reform.

And complete inaccuracy is not an "excuse." It's just a garbage in garbage out situation.

**future pather** · 08-09-2009, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Nadda View Post

The problem with socialism is that when you give things away for free, people will ALWAYS take advantage of it. I myself, have female family members who have gotten themselves knocked up just to live off the government. To have a free life.

Socialism Doesnt Work. Anywhere.

Yeah and people NEVER take advantage of capitalistic systems.

**Ghostrider** · 08-09-2009, 10:04 PM

Money is the problem not the health care system, if the US and the world wasn't so interested in making money the world would be a better place and there would be no need to make changes to health care and there would be no depression. !!
Lots of Americans love the Star Trek TV show, how many of you know it's based on a Socialist society..?
You say Socialism does not work..! neither does Capitalism. When they are in competition with each other it makes it worse still.
Socialism would work as soon as you take the value out of everything and stop thinking that what you do is worth more than what i do...!! If we all do what we do it just gets done and we all benefit. Ala Star Trek world..

P.S The doctors and nurses really get into the profession to do good and heal, the system is setup to make money through big pharma and insurance companies, both are in it to make money not provide us with health and Insurance.

**Mozaar** · 08-10-2009, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by Ghostrider View Post

Money is the problem not the health care system, if the US and the world wasn't so interested in making money the world would be a better place and there would be no need to make changes to health care and there would be no depression. !!
Lots of Americans love the Star Trek TV show, how many of you know it's based on a Socialist society..?
You say Socialism does not work..! neither does Capitalism. When they are in competition with each other it makes it worse still.
Socialism would work as soon as you take the value out of everything and stop thinking that what you do is worth more than what i do...!! If we all do what we do it just gets done and we all benefit. Ala Star Trek world..

P.S The doctors and nurses really get into the profession to do good and heal, the system is setup to make money through big pharma and insurance companies, both are in it to make money not provide us with health and Insurance.

The only problem with socialism is that theoretically, we are supposed to feel at ease with someone else looking out for us. Capatilism, theoreticaly was to make an even playing field where everyone had a shot at riches. Both can become successful but both systems make some people better than others. In its extremes, both are total failures. As for the US, I wonder how we are to financially engineer our debt and provide all these social services. Somethings got to give.

**future pather** · 08-10-2009, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by Mozaar View Post

As for the US, I wonder how we are to financially engineer our debt and provide all these social services. Somethings got to give.

Certain social programs can definitely improve the economy.

Economists know that more money in the economy has a multiplier effect.

If you spend a dollar, you usually get around $7 worth of economic activity out of it, because the person that you gave the dollar to spends it on something he needs and the person he gives the dollar to spends it on something he needs, and so on.

This is very basic stuff in economics - they've tracked the dollars, they know that this concept is correct.

If you give the money to a rich person, he puts it in the bank because he already has everything he needs. The money has a small multiplier effect in the bank because there are restrictions on what a bank can do with it. If the rich person uses the money to buy an existing company, nothing new is created, so the multiplier effect if effectively zero.

If you give the money to a poor person, they spend it. Instant multiplier effect. Instant effect on the economy.

And there are a LOT of poor people.

How will socialism get us out this econimic stump? - Yahoo! Answers

Also imo it is about lifting people to better situations. Some will really put that to work for themselves which benefits everyone in the society. Others at least will be less likely to rob others and wreak havoc on society, which also benefits everyone.

**Mozaar** · 08-10-2009, 01:16 PM

Thanks future pather,

However, your argument is based on theory. Reality is that, we do not have the money to give. This is because we are in debt. Now, we could look at this as a long term solution, a very long term solution. I just want to understand how this would work.

Since our debt is monetised and any stimulus would increase that debt in the name of economic activity, would not this just save us from disaster, i.e if successful, save us from plunging economic activity and not exactly making it better? We can try to do things better than the other countries that did this before and failed, but exactly how is beyond me. I think the debate is a lot broader than simply dealing with the issue of health care.

Obviously, I side with those who do not favor nationalized health care. However, I feel like if we knew exactly how we were being charged we can usher in even lower costs of health care than we had before. I think the health care industry needs to open thier books to the public to justify these enormous costs that are hurting the people.

I predict that people in this country are actually taking better of themselves and are more aware of what they can do to control thier health. There is a healthy conscienceness there that is growing and I'm a part of it. I can do without health insurance. I will prefer paying a small premium for extraordinary circumstances that will require hospitalization, not the whole package. I believe this health bill is forcing me to take the whole package.

**Ghostrider** · 08-10-2009, 02:28 PM

Look up the web site web of debt dot com and see if you can get a copy of the ebook of the same name. The main debt we and all the countries of the world owe is to the banks in the form of compound interest !! The banks are private and not operated by the governments so we the people also pay interest on any loans, remove the compound interest and we can afford these loans.
As an example and to simplify as much as possible we have �the bank� �the government� �2 companies� and a �citizen� - the bank loans the government $100 with simple 5% interest, thereby owing the bank $105, the government can�t pay that back because the bank only loaned $100 so the bank also loans $100 at 5% interest to the companies and the citizen (expanding the money supply) all loans totalling $400, during the course of doing business with each other the government gets $105 and pays back the bank, company 1 earns it�s $105 and pays back the bank, company 3 and the citizen between them owe $210 but there is only $190 left in �the economy� now if both split that between them then neither can pay their debt so both go bankrupt� the upside to the bank is that they now own the company/and or it�s assets and whatever money the citizen has left, not bad considering that the bank created the original $400 from thin air�!!!!!
Capitalism at it's finest, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

This is the banking process as it stands and of course is inflationary as the banks have to create more money in the form of loans/debt to pay back principle and interest of the existing loans. Contrary to popular belief, creeping inflation is not caused by the government irresponsibly printing dollars. It is caused by banks expanding the money supply with loans. The alternative is the governments issue the money including an amount equalling the interest, in the example above that would mean $420, $400 in loans and $20 interest that could be used to pay for labour and materials for infrastructure such as railroads, highways, social programs etc. and that would be paid to the companies and citizen for materials and labour thereby giving the companies and citizen the money to pay back the loan including interest. What�s more, the government gets to maintain or increase infrastructure and social programs, No Inflation!! And no requirement for taxes!!!. Although i'm sure there will be.

I agree that some people are plain lazy and that capitalism allows people who want to work hard to succeed but the system also crushes people as in the example above and if you have ever been in that position you think why should i bother.?? it's no longer about how hard you work but who can i sue or con to get rich quick and our health care system masks symtoms instead of curing the disease that way they get to charge silly money for drugs and treatments for the rest of your life, which of course isn't extended because they haven't cured the disease.

The disease is actually our food industry as it pumps us full of poisons, they try to blame the fast food companies and yes they have something to do with it but everything we buy at the supermarkets is full of extra salt, sugar, rancid fats and chemicals with unpronouncable names and we wonder why we get so fat and ill, i personally eat small amounts but i only have to look at this stuff on the shelves and I put on 10 pounds.
I'm sorry to say that if the US wants to remain a capitalist society running the way it is now then it will never fix the trouble it's in economically or fix infrastructure and health care because you can't afford it. !!!

**future pather** · 08-10-2009, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Mozaar View Post

Thanks future pather,

However, your argument is based on theory.

It's a proven theory based on reality.

Trickle down is the theory that does NOT work in reality.

**Ghostrider** · 08-10-2009, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by future pather View Post

It's a proven theory based on reality.

Trickle down is the theory that does NOT work in reality.

I agree, the concept is based on trickle up, trickle down is charity or socialism and that obviously isn't popular in America.

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