Paths and placebo effect

[serenac]

Hi all!

Well I've decided to take a dare and write about a hairy subject. I've been hearing (well seeing) in some places (outside of this forum) that some criticisms some people may have been making about Paths basically seemed to fall into 2 main categories: 1. Paths works because of the placebo effect, and 2. using Paths is like *cheating* on your spiritual evolution. So I just wanted to give my 2-cents' worth on these subjects.

1. Paths works because of the placebo effect
Well I don't know very much about these sorts of subjects after all I'm no scientist, but I've read in a few places that basically in some aspects ALL healing is nothing more than the placebo effect. That in reality there really is NOTHING that will actually cure or heal a person, that really EVERYTHING that exists in the world to heal or cure people which really actually works is due to the placebo effect. So in that line, medications don't REALLY work, they work because the people taking them BELIEVE in them. Holistic therapies don't REALLY work, they work because the patient believes in them. Even such tried and true methods like taking antibiotics for an infection don't REALLY work, they work because just about EVERYONE thinks that antibiotics work to cure an infection. Sometimes we will see that an antibiotic will have no effect, and it is usually because (although I could be wrong since I am not a healer, disclaimer disclaimer!) the person either does not REALLY want to get well at all, or sometimes it's because the person has decided that it is simply his time to go. After all they do say that no one and nothing really heals or cures anyone, that all the different methods that exist to heal people really work only because they trigger the person's OWN natural healing abilities, that all of us we all basically cure ourselves.

So if you look at it that way, if you REALLY wanted to avoid EVERYTHING that could possibly even have a remote possibility that maybe it only works due to the placebo effect, well then in that case you'd also have to avoid Tylenol, aspirin, antibiotics, ibuprofen, and of course also all those wonderful alternative healing modalities like chiropractics, homeopathy, Theta healing, Ayurveda, etc. Not to mention physiotherapy after an accident, psychological/psychiatric therapy, group therapy, even AA when you come right down to it! Like Paths these methods all seem to work, but h*ll, you wouldn't want to fall victim to some placebo effect and be taken for a donkey, right?

So you know, you'd kinda think I was nuts and could use some psychiatric therapy myself if I were to suggest that penicillin doesn't REALLY work it's just the placebo effect, right? So then why would you think that penicillin DOES work but Paths doesn't and it's just the placebo effect? Truth is the world is full of mystery, who can REALLY TRULY and HONESTLY affirm without a shadow of a doubt that penicillin REALLY works and it's not just the placebo effect as well?

I say, if it works, go for it! I don't understand why Paths works, but it does, so I don't care why it works. I don't understand why my washing machine works either, but it sure is useful to me! And if taking ibuprofen means no fever, I'm all for it!

2. Using Paths is like *cheating* on your spiritual evolution
Some people get scared that since Paths accelerates their evolution and self-development so much, that there's going to be some sort of karmic *backlash*, like the universe wanted them to sweat, agonize and suffer in order to evolve spiritually. No pain no gain, right?

Well I don't know, but I don't see any nay-sayers screaming that going to therapy in order to facilitate your self-development and spiritual evolution is cheating. People don't run around screaming at everyone that since people who meditate seem to evolve a lot faster than people who don't meditate, therefore they are cheating and we should all ban meditation. Has anyone out there seen protest marches in front of Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer or those other people who give workshops, complaining that attending these workshops accelerates the attendees' spiritual development and that therefore Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer et al. ought to all go out of business because they are encouraging people to cheat?

And when you look at it that way, if you've got a wound and you wash it with soap and water and put some medicine on it so it heals faster, oh wowee beware! We're CHEATING because we're causing that wound to heal faster! Oh my! How terrible! We're committing some karmic no-no by helping that wound to heal faster. Okay so I didn't mean to be so sarcastic, it just riles me that there are some people out there that would RUN at full speed to the hospital in an ambulance in order to get their broken leg to heal faster, but they are het up against something (Paths) that would also help them to heal themselves faster because of some spiritual hang-up.

I guess in reality I should be grateful that those nay-sayers exist, after all by existing they are also affirming that Paths exists and is having an effect on the world, in fact even they admit that Paths has helped them. I guess maybe they just gave in to their cog-dis too soon.

Oh and here's another one, now this one is so totally preposterous I can't believe some people even believe in this! There are a few strange people out there who totally and thoroughly believe that all the great things that were happening to them because of Paths, was actually due solely to eating more spirulina! Well I respect everyone's beliefs and I believe that these people have a right to believe whatever they want to, but I personally find it about as verosimile as to say for example that there is cheese in the world because the moon is made of green cheese. You can believe that too if you like, I won't try and stop you from believing that! I personally don't believe it (about the spirulina thing I mean). I mean, if spirulina was such a miraculous supplement, why doesn't everyone who takes spirulina experience sudden amazing transformations in their lives? I mean, there must be tons and tons and tons of people in the world who take spirulina, for health reasons or whatever, but they're not on Paths. In fact a long time ago I used to take lots of spirulina and as far as I can recall I didn't change as a result of it. If spirulina was so miraculous, why don't the Paths people just stop producing Paths theatres and modules and just market spirulina? How come no one ever discovered before Paths existed that spirulina was so amazing?

Anyways I think that if we're all using Paths it's because the universe led us to discover Paths, and if the universe led us to discover Paths it's because it's good for us, it's a tool that the universe thought would help us. Don't think that it's that easy to discover Paths, I just discovered Paths right now and it's been around, what, 2 years maybe? So if Paths were so easy to discover how come I never heard of it before now? It's not like there's an ad for Paths on every website, I've never seen a Paths ad on Yahoo for example. So I think Paths is a bit like a treasure, it's not something just sitting out there in plain sight so if you discovered Paths, you had to be led to find it, and that means you were supposed to discover it so you could use it, if you chose to do so.

Well as usual I've blogged away a page and a half so I'll stop now!

[BobBrown]

More ! More !

WOOT !!

Don't stop blogging !! I loved your post !!

Does Paths work ? I don't know. Been a month and a half , and what I'm getting is definit, reactions to the moduals. Kinda like the hives. But I believe this is more due to deep ingrained self worthlesness, that the paths moduals I've choosen are specificaly designed to counter. Kinda like taking MMS when when you've got a bad sickness. As the medicine works , your body needs to flush the toxins out. So ok, I'm leaning toward the Paths System as working.
But if it was easy, I would not need Paths at all. LOL , hmm, so not a placebo, and not so easy.

A work in progress
Andrew T
PATHS ~ Mind Energetics <<--chk it out for yourself !


PS : Just re read my post. I tolk a bit of artistic license. I don't have the Hive, I'm not sick. My body is not wracked by uncontrolable excreta. Shoot me I stretched it a bit. . But I am in conflick, in my own mind. Between the way I've always been, and the way I want to be. The Paths moduals are a central focus of this. The fact that I'm discussing it with my self ( ok that sounds crazy ) is actualy a step in the right direction.
Ack , I seem to have said it worse!
I think I'm going to go crawl under a rock, and hope nobody notices this post of mine.
Only reason I don't erase this is that I'm trying to say something, I just can't say it right.

Andrew T
Rocks are realy quite cosy places.

[Kevin]

Great read! Always find your posts interesting and thought provoking.

I have also read/am aware that many people subscribe to the belief that you outline in the Placebo section of your post. To put it crudely "that things only exist because we believe they exist", "we make our own reality", etc.

I do not believe that (yet at the same time I do not criticize those who do).

Here are a few examples of WHY I do not believe that:

If a person has a headache and they UNKNOWINGLY ingest aspirin, their headache is likely to go away. Why? Because aspirin actually works (regardless of belief) in eliminating most headaches.


If you are in a building and a toxin gas is pumped into the air in that building, it will affect you. NOT because of your belief, you did not know it was being pumped into the air. I also do NOT believe that the belief of the people who pumped it into the air will cause others to be affected. (oh, that was sort of a gruesome example ) The reason someone is affected is because toxic gas really is toxic, regardless of anyones belief.


I could list another 10,000+ examples...but you get the idea.

Now, in regards to PATHS...I have seen it work with people who knew they were using it, but did not want/believe it would work.

I have actually had a few personal customers that purchased it for their children...it worked with the children and the children did not even know what it was/that it was running on them. (the parent played the theater on the speakers in the room while the kid was in there...kid had no idea what it was).

PATHS has done several blind studies with us Affiliates, where we did not know what the subject of a Module was...(so our belief could not influence any specific outcome), yet most all us Affiliates experienced same/similar benefits. And, NO, I do not believe the PATHS staffs belief caused all us Affiliates to experience the same/similar thing.


Regarding your second subject of "cheating". I am all for "cheating", prefer to call it learning and growing, being wise with time and resources.

If I can do something that will collapse time frames, save expense, extend life, improve quality of life, improve insight/wisdom, improve communications, etc. I will do that.

Even if it means living under a roof instead of the sky, or wearing a jacket when it is really cold out, or increasing water intake when I have been more physically active, or using a technology (whether it is a blood pressure machine, blood test, urine test, ph test, SCIO, kinesiology(sp), PATHS) to help me on a physical, emotional, financial, or spiritual level. That is called being smart/taking advantages of the opportunities afforded me. To do otherwise would be foolish, and wasting what is given me.

Hi all!

Well I've decided to take a dare and write about a hairy subject. I've been hearing (well seeing) in some places (outside of this forum) that some criticisms some people may have been making about Paths basically seemed to fall into 2 main categories: 1. Paths works because of the placebo effect, and 2. using Paths is like *cheating* on your spiritual evolution. So I just wanted to give my 2-cents' worth on these subjects.

1. Paths works because of the placebo effect
Well I don't know very much about these sorts of subjects after all I'm no scientist, but I've read in a few places that basically in some aspects ALL healing is nothing more than the placebo effect. That in reality there really is NOTHING that will actually cure or heal a person, that really EVERYTHING that exists in the world to heal or cure people which really actually works is due to the placebo effect. So in that line, medications don't REALLY work, they work because the people taking them BELIEVE in them. Holistic therapies don't REALLY work, they work because the patient believes in them. Even such tried and true methods like taking antibiotics for an infection don't REALLY work, they work because just about EVERYONE thinks that antibiotics work to cure an infection. Sometimes we will see that an antibiotic will have no effect, and it is usually because (although I could be wrong since I am not a healer, disclaimer disclaimer!) the person either does not REALLY want to get well at all, or sometimes it's because the person has decided that it is simply his time to go. After all they do say that no one and nothing really heals or cures anyone, that all the different methods that exist to heal people really work only because they trigger the person's OWN natural healing abilities, that all of us we all basically cure ourselves.

So if you look at it that way, if you REALLY wanted to avoid EVERYTHING that could possibly even have a remote possibility that maybe it only works due to the placebo effect, well then in that case you'd also have to avoid Tylenol, aspirin, antibiotics, ibuprofen, and of course also all those wonderful alternative healing modalities like chiropractics, homeopathy, Theta healing, Ayurveda, etc. Not to mention physiotherapy after an accident, psychological/psychiatric therapy, group therapy, even AA when you come right down to it! Like Paths these methods all seem to work, but h*ll, you wouldn't want to fall victim to some placebo effect and be taken for a donkey, right?

So you know, you'd kinda think I was nuts and could use some psychiatric therapy myself if I were to suggest that penicillin doesn't REALLY work it's just the placebo effect, right? So then why would you think that penicillin DOES work but Paths doesn't and it's just the placebo effect? Truth is the world is full of mystery, who can REALLY TRULY and HONESTLY affirm without a shadow of a doubt that penicillin REALLY works and it's not just the placebo effect as well?

I say, if it works, go for it! I don't understand why Paths works, but it does, so I don't care why it works. I don't understand why my washing machine works either, but it sure is useful to me! And if taking ibuprofen means no fever, I'm all for it!

2. Using Paths is like *cheating* on your spiritual evolution
Some people get scared that since Paths accelerates their evolution and self-development so much, that there's going to be some sort of karmic *backlash*, like the universe wanted them to sweat, agonize and suffer in order to evolve spiritually. No pain no gain, right?

Well I don't know, but I don't see any nay-sayers screaming that going to therapy in order to facilitate your self-development and spiritual evolution is cheating. People don't run around screaming at everyone that since people who meditate seem to evolve a lot faster than people who don't meditate, therefore they are cheating and we should all ban meditation. Has anyone out there seen protest marches in front of Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer or those other people who give workshops, complaining that attending these workshops accelerates the attendees' spiritual development and that therefore Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer et al. ought to all go out of business because they are encouraging people to cheat?

And when you look at it that way, if you've got a wound and you wash it with soap and water and put some medicine on it so it heals faster, oh wowee beware! We're CHEATING because we're causing that wound to heal faster! Oh my! How terrible! We're committing some karmic no-no by helping that wound to heal faster. Okay so I didn't mean to be so sarcastic, it just riles me that there are some people out there that would RUN at full speed to the hospital in an ambulance in order to get their broken leg to heal faster, but they are het up against something (Paths) that would also help them to heal themselves faster because of some spiritual hang-up.

I guess in reality I should be grateful that those nay-sayers exist, after all by existing they are also affirming that Paths exists and is having an effect on the world, in fact even they admit that Paths has helped them. I guess maybe they just gave in to their cog-dis too soon.

Oh and here's another one, now this one is so totally preposterous I can't believe some people even believe in this! There are a few strange people out there who totally and thoroughly believe that all the great things that were happening to them because of Paths, was actually due solely to eating more spirulina! Well I respect everyone's beliefs and I believe that these people have a right to believe whatever they want to, but I personally find it about as verosimile as to say for example that there is cheese in the world because the moon is made of green cheese. You can believe that too if you like, I won't try and stop you from believing that! I personally don't believe it (about the spirulina thing I mean). I mean, if spirulina was such a miraculous supplement, why doesn't everyone who takes spirulina experience sudden amazing transformations in their lives? I mean, there must be tons and tons and tons of people in the world who take spirulina, for health reasons or whatever, but they're not on Paths. In fact a long time ago I used to take lots of spirulina and as far as I can recall I didn't change as a result of it. If spirulina was so miraculous, why don't the Paths people just stop producing Paths theatres and modules and just market spirulina? How come no one ever discovered before Paths existed that spirulina was so amazing?

Anyways I think that if we're all using Paths it's because the universe led us to discover Paths, and if the universe led us to discover Paths it's because it's good for us, it's a tool that the universe thought would help us. Don't think that it's that easy to discover Paths, I just discovered Paths right now and it's been around, what, 2 years maybe? So if Paths were so easy to discover how come I never heard of it before now? It's not like there's an ad for Paths on every website, I've never seen a Paths ad on Yahoo for example. So I think Paths is a bit like a treasure, it's not something just sitting out there in plain sight so if you discovered Paths, you had to be led to find it, and that means you were supposed to discover it so you could use it, if you chose to do so.

Well as usual I've blogged away a page and a half so I'll stop now!

[Kevin]

WOOT !!

Don't stop blogging !! I loved your post !!

+1

Does Paths work ? I don't know. Been a month and a half , and what I'm getting is definit, reactions to the moduals. Kinda like the hives. But I believe this is more due to deep ingrained self worthlesness, that the paths moduals I've choosen are specificaly designed to counter. Kinda like taking MMS when when you've got a bad sickness. As the medicine works , your body needs to flush the toxins out. So ok, I'm leaning toward the Paths System as working.
But if it was easy, I would not need Paths at all. LOL , hmm, so not a placebo, and not so easy.

A work in progress
Andrew T
PATHS ~ Mind Energetics <<--chk it out for yourself !


PS : Just re read my post. I tolk a bit of artistic license. I don't have the Hive, I'm not sick. My body is not wracked by uncontrolable excreta. Shoot me I stretched it a bit. . But I am in conflick, in my own mind. Between the way I've always been, and the way I want to be. The Paths moduals are a central focus of this. The fact that I'm discussing it with my self ( ok that sounds crazy ) is actualy a step in the right direction.
Ack , I seem to have said it worse!
I think I'm going to go crawl under a rock, and hope nobody notices this post of mine.
Only reason I don't erase this is that I'm trying to say something, I just can't say it right.

Andrew T
Rocks are realy quite cosy places.

Hey Andrew! I see you under that rock.

Seriously, that is a great post you wrote up. I, and I'm sure many others, understand exactly what you are saying.

It is a normal part of the growth process...cognitive dissonance...where we believe one thing and know we should/ want to believe another thing.

Purging old beliefs with new healthy beliefs, and the conflict that sometimes arises, is a normal healthy process for those of us on a journey of growth.

[serenac]

Hello just reviving up an old post. Well I at any rate have had such unexpected effects from Paths that there's no way they could be placebo! If I were to (even subconsciously) invent some placebo effects I would probably have invented some obvious ones, but not the effects I really have experienced. For example, with the Self-Esteem module, well I've always been quite a wishy-washy person, if I met Mr. A and he told me, A is right, I would've believed him. But if I later met Ms. B and she said to me, A is wrong B is right, I would've believed her instead. But now I can feel very clearly inside me what I really feel to be right or wrong, so now if I meet someone who expresses views which don't jive with what I feel deep inside to be right, then I know not to agree with the person, I can feel what is really right or wrong for me and other people's opinions don't phase me anymore. Now maybe if I meet a really pushy person they might confuse me for a short period of time, but they won't pull me off centre for very long.

[Pamela Vicik-Smith]

That is fabulous, Serenac!!!

I love to read "progress reports" from Paths users. Have you seen Rin's posts on this forum? She pops in every now and then and gives an update. She has been using Paths for at least two years I believe.

I remember when she first started, she was almost a shadow of the person she really was inside. Each time she posted, I could see her becoming stronger and more defined as an individual.

She is now a person who knows she is in control of her life. She has blossomed into a beautiful butterfly who knows her own way.

I am so happy to see this sort of transformation for you as well