KOA vs. LOK

[ImBill]

Oops, that should be LOA vs. LOK

A recent coincidence/synchronicity occurred that started me reading a book that I've had in my possession for over 30 years that I had never read. It is a fascinating book, but one of the things in it that I was reading about over the weekend was the law of Karma. Basically, it puts forth the teaching/idea that we can't get something for nothing. If we precipitate or manifest something, we have to pay for it one way or another. This is nothing new in my experience or education, if you will.

There was something that was brought up that I had never really considered before and that was the idea that when we help someone who is suffering, we could be incurring karmic debt. The premise is that someone who is suffering may just be paying back some of their karmic debt and that by helping them (giving them something for nothing), we are not only postponing the suffering they need to incur, but thereby also further increasing their karmic debt. This then also increases our karmic debt (if we have any). The example used was a panhandler that instead of working or looking for work takes the easy way out and lives off of others' generosity.

When the source of wisdom was asked how one is to know the difference between someone who is deserving of assistance and someone who is not, the answer was through observation and spiritual guidance. Given that most of you appear to be much further along than I am, I was hoping that I could get some input on this topic as I find it of great interest.

I would also be interested in how you feel this works in your own life in terms of "paying back" the abundance that you are trying to manifest in your life. It seems very easy to reconcile from the standpoint of love. The more love you show and distribute, the more you receive and I doubt one could incur karmic debt from giving too much love. However, I would be think that manifesting "things" for sense gratification would be subject to accountability at some point. What do you think? Do you take this into consideration or not?

[Sunshine]

Hello ImBill

I don't believe that anyone "needs" to suffer. And if someone was suffering and I could help in any way then I would do so. And how can you decide who to help and who to ignore? How do you judge? And if you didn't help someone who was suffering, how would you feel? What sort of feelings would you have inside? Would you be happy with your decision? Would you feel at peace? And how would you know, if you didn't help someone because you decided it was their karma to suffer, that you'd got it right? And how would you feel if you were suffering and no-one helped you? As to paying back any abundance that you receive in your life so you don't incur karmic debt, then I think whatever you have in your life affects others. How you are and how you behave affects others. So any abundance you have in your life benefits not just you but others also. And in order to attract abundance into your life you need to BE abundant. In order to attract love into your life you need to BE loving. So really, you already have balance. You are both giving and receiving. I think if you operate from love and concentrate on always acting from love then you can't go far wrong. Love and gratitude are very important and will make a big difference if you focus on them. I hope this helps.

[ImBill]

Thanks for your thoughts, Sunshine. During the times that I've looked back at my life to try to decide where I am karmically, I've always felt kind of neutral because when I do stuff that is wrong, I seem to receive some sort of "punishment" within a very short time. That taught me to quit doing things that were wrong.
When I was younger, I used to get approached by people asking for spare change and such where nowadays, it seems these people are now hanging out on the freeway off ramps and busy intersections. I rarely give anyone money under these circumstances. I've had panhandlers get pushy and actually felt kind of glad afterwards that I didn't give them anything. On the other hand, I've helped many people that have either asked for help (explaining the circumstances that have driven them to need to ask) or that I could just tell needed help. I never accept payment for this type of help. Yeah, I've been burned a few times, but to me it's worth it just in case they actually did need help.
Since suffering isn't the only criteria we use to help people, I guess maybe that wasn't quite the concept I was looking to get input on. You are right, I would feel bad if I saw someone suffering first hand, knew I could help, and didn't. However, there are millions of people suffering right now and I know that if I lowered my standard of living, I could do a lot more to help alleviate some of that. I don't do that, though. Is that wrong? This author was also talking about national karma. Our lifestyle here in America contributes quite a bit to planetary suffering; from our unsustainable consumption to our exploitation of others' labor. That doesn't even take into account the awful things we do to our planet. Our actions have consequences that most of us can't even comprehend or see let alone take into account as we move through our daily lives. I guess that's more what I'm seeking input on. I think I will begin to understand this more as I develop my ability to love unconditionally and expand my gratitude? Thanks.

[Ayurved]

karma

After about 8 class hours discussing karma from the sanskrit sutras of Charika Samhita (5000 yr old text) we hardly scratched the surface, but I'm happy to say that vedic thought believes LOA wins over, say, your jyotish or astrological chart (fate). Different, I know but still same-ish subject.

The word karma just means 'action', but is more about 'desires' and 'programming'...cause and effect....rather than crime and punishment.

It really bugs me when people say they won't help someone b/c they don't want to mess with that persons 'karma'! I believe what Klaus Johle (Living on Love guy) says that we're divine beings signing up for certain experiences, like hooking into a video game. Its all so different from the divine place we came from, we might not know what we're getting into. Who knows, maybe that homeless person is there for the benefit of YOUR karma...you get a chance to help someone. Also, we come into our lives with certain broad 'questions'. so maybe if we wanted to learn all about love...we would look at the other side too, and experience some crappy stuff.

The most beneficial veiwpoint for me for all this, comes from my advanced Ayurvedic teacher. He is all about the 'Heart Lotus' (heart chakra) which holds our gem or immortal soul.

EVERYONES gem is without flaw, beyond judgement, total perfection....even the a-holes! It has an aura within, and a light that shines. Its held within a lotus with 16 petals. Someone's spiritual flavor all depends on if the petals are open or not, and how clear the light is. Pain and trauma will make the petals close...and I guess if they stay closed is where the trouble comes from.

Past life stuff can cause shadows on the beam of light, like moths will disrupt a flashlight beam. since this is the Kali Yuga age...the age of ignorance, the only sin seems to be our degree separation from the Divine. My teacher stresses that we should have our mind connected to our heart lotus at all times. Thats why we (and yogis) don't eat garlic and onions....said to break that connection. In fact, he says LOA won't work unless you're eating right!

Since we're so 'involved' with life, and the churning emotions and mental ideas that come with life's ups and downs....that programs our actions. Its said that the strong emotions and thoughts we go out of one life with...will color our next. Anyway, karma is said to be burnt by prayer, ceremonies like yagyas, and doing good deeds. It seems that if your mind and heart are well connected, your thoughts and actions will come from a really loving and balanced place....releasing you from the stronghold of repeating stupid actions. Anyway, easy to say, but really hard work!!!

In Love and Immense Gratitude,
Nancy

[Doug]

but....

Hey Imbill,
This may floor you, but Karma really doesn't exist. Since time doesn't really either and with past, present & future existing at once, you can't pay for something done in a former life. We live our different lives and they share info back and forth. We are amazing beings that are creative and no matter what the experience, it's there for us.
The concept if Karma has been distorted or "religiousized" (my word, sorry) to keep people doing good things. There's a concept of Hell that's scaring a bunch of other people too. It's a way of invoking fear to keep people civil.
As we move towards a more quantum view of the universe, the linear "progression to perfection" karma view won't make sense. Guilt is to remind yourself "not to do that again". We'll only pay for doing something if we believe we do.
Our belief in Karma will distort our perception of reality. It can even draw upon events to support that belief! It's all up to you, what you wanna do. It can be a good excuse to blame what ever is happening on something else and play the victim. Or "It's not my fault, the devil made me do it!"
It's all up to us, we create our own reality. The more we focus on being responsible, thankful, grateful, appreciate-able We will see it in our lives.

I wish you the best,
Doug

[ImBill]

I just finished reading the Baghavad Gita with purports from the founder of the Hare Krishna movement about a month ago. I mainly try to stay away from religious teachings as I find that most people who are "into" a certain religion tend to quote scripture instead of saying what they believe based on their experience. The purports are a good example. I don't ever remember A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada interjecting anything from his experience or personal knowledge. He was just reiterating what Lord Krishna said. If someone is a realized master as he was believed to be, I would expect that he could discuss things from his own viewpoint as most do. Krishna, from this 5000 year old text definitely talks about karma as do the texts of all major religions. It is a recurring theme. I'm certainly not fearful of karma, but more respectful of it. I'm definitely working hard on trying to develop more love for myself and others. I shut that part of myself down to a large extent many, many years ago as I was deeply hurt by it many times. It still hurts.

So, Doug, I'm still having trouble wrapping my brain around the no time thing. I've read in quite a few places (including channeled information and Near Death Experience accounts) that before we enter a body that is about to be born, we have a past life review and pick our parents/circumstances to be born to based on what it is that we need to learn and/or experience in our coming incarnation. There's also lots of stuff about what happens in between lives. Part of my investigations also show that people are born with memories and scars/birthmarks that correspond to past lives not long ago lived. Many Japanese soldiers that died during WWII were reincarnated in Burma/Myanmar in the '50s, for instance. Time is such an ingrained part of our lives, that it is difficult from my perspective to easily dismiss it. Like I said, my mind has a hard time wrapping itself around it as there's no knowledge base to draw on. I am trying, though! Right now, I would have a hard time with the concept of no karma, but I'll mull it over and see what happens.

I'm going to jump to your last sentence, here. Actually, there's only the one word: responsible. How do we define that? What makes us "responsible"? On the one hand, I have a job, I have a home, I have a wife, a dog, some cars, and a couple of acres. Am I responsible if I pay my bills, do a good job, take care of the wife and family, and keep insurance for us? Or, does it include more. For instance, should I concern myself with being responsible about the things that I buy as far as the manufacturing impact on the planet and humanity? I love strawberries, but most of them come from California and the pesticides are contaminating the ground water, deforming species of small animals that then deform larger species, even humans. Am I responsible for that?

Another way I can look at this word responsible is that ultimately my life responsibility may be to make a positive connection with the Creator, whatever I view that to be. My not being connected may be holding mankind back or may be holding me back. Would the responsible thing then be to withdraw and put the majority of my time and energy into strengthening that connection? Ultimately, I want to do what's right. I want to be able to discern truth and live my life in a manner that is of the highest good for all that exists.

When I was younger, I kind of developed this attitude that whatever we are doing is what we are supposed to be doing. I viewed myself and others as parts of God that God had hidden from himself so that we/he could play this big game and have all kinds of fascinating and emotional experiences just for something to do. God has all this potential, so no sense just sitting on it. Make it fun, make it seem real, but don't take it seriously. No harm, no foul. It's all love at the bottom of everything.

I'm starting to grasp this quantum stuff (they never teach the fun stuff in school!) but may be trying too hard to reconcile it with spirituality. I really appreciate the thoughts and inputs that you've given above, Nancy & Doug.

Love and light to you!

[Doug]

Great questions

ImBill,

I'll have to talk to my editor, why he didn't recommend saying "responsible for it, instead! oops.

On the quantum deal, I started learning about it 25+ yrs ago reading the Seth Material by Jane Roberts. <- see) In 1984 I don't think I heard the word "quantum" then. It's the best I've come across in all my research. Do I have it all 100% figured out??? Not yet, there's a lot of reading and rereading. Also you need to make the info you're own or to live it - The correct phrase is knowledge + "action" is Power. It isn't fluffy, light reading. It will provoke many life situations that you'll look back on w/new interpretation. It will also challenge your beliefs.

I gotcha on evidence found on karma. There is also evidence of "evolution" but w/the time deal and other missing evidence or links, I think evolution is a false assumption. Seth talks about the physical/non-physical relating that we're constantly part of. Some of the explanations are distorted because of our lack of words or understanding. But it's still good stuff.

Great view that you have Bill on the God deal! For a connection with God that Seth calls All-that-is, our imagination is one of the best methods!!! The truer we are to ourselves, will give us the best learning experience. We all have that "spark" of God in us of course. We are here to learn, love, & express ourselves to the fullest! We are here to play, not to "pay" for any mishaps of another life!

Love & Light back atcha,

Doug