Paid "Shills" (forum posters) How do we recognize them

[Farmhand]

Hi all, It occurs to me that many of these alternative energy sites have some
paid posters "Shills". I was wondering if there might be a way to recognize
them and out them. Maybe some people skilled at network analysis or
something could investigate some likely suspects.

Here are some links on the subject.

Paid Shills In Forums (online Reputation Management) - PCWorld Forums

"I Was a Paid Internet Shill" - Vanguard News Network Forum

How Does a Paid Forum Poster Spend a Workday? | eHow.com

There are threads about how to recognize them.
How to identify Professional debunkers, Straw men, and shills, concerning 9/11 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

There is even an Ehow on how to get a job as a shill.

How to Work From Home as a Paid Forum Poster | eHow.com

In my opinion people who do not post evidence of experiments or their
progress on "any" project are suspicious. Also people who make big claims
with no proof. I have other opinions of what to look for as well but I thought I
would leave the field open for play.

I'm not indicating in any way who I think would employ them, there could be
many "employers" with different agenda's.

What does occur to me though, is the shills seem to get by unnoticed
generally and even gain a following because they say what many want to hear.

If anyone has any deep insight as to how to out any possible paid shills, please say so.

I think it is safe to say they infect every popular forum on the net.

Cheers

[realmikel]

I find a caffine free diet helps my paranoia

[MonsieurM]

there is an expression ... which is kind of suitable for all those "Shills" :

"The dogs bark, but the caravan goes by"

good to read you Farmhand

[Farmhand]

Hi realmikel Yes that may well be true. But I think paranoia is a bit over the
top in this case. I don't doubt caffine could cause elevated paranoia, so can a
lot of other substances. I would say deep suspicion is a better description.

I've been doing some reading and it seems there are different kinds of shills.

This is how I would classify them.

Good shills.
There seems to be a market for forum posters to "start up" topics or
conversations or just post things, which in my opinion is perfectly ok as long
as they are not deliberately spreading disinformation. I can see how a forum
could benefit from people being paid to post good interesting stuff.

Bad shills
A different kind of shill would seem to be, people who have agenda's to
distract, disinform, confuse or otherwise or are paid to do so. They could
have access to coaches or advice. These should be easy to spot, and they
have been in the past. I'm sure we all remember one or two of those.

Silly shills.
These would be people who continually and purposely fill pages of threads
with claims of Over Unity, ambiguous and unclear statements, insinuations and
so forth. Stuff that make little sense. The same recycled stuff over and over
again or slight variations of it, good information can be buried in pages of the
same picture in a quote after quote and completely off topic posts. Lot's of
catchy words or phrases could be utilized by these people.

I'm thinking a bad shill could conceivably pass them self off as a silly shill or a good shill.

Some people think they can tell a disinformationalist by their traits as this
page indicates. Eight Traits of the Disinformati

However I think it is unreliable to try to label people simply by traits, many of
the traits listed in the link could occur in normal activities. I think if we look at
patterns things can be noticed.

Some of us do experiments and some don't, which is fair enough too.

All in all I don't think there is much that can be done except to use our own
discretion and apply the BS filters. That could mean asking difficult questions
and demanding some proof of claims and the information for others to verify
claims. I think posting even a circuit and claiming it "does" do a particular
thing is in itself a claim and should be evidenced in some way by the poster
regardless if it is their circuit or not. Why not just say that the
inventor "such and such" claims this, rather than say it does it with the
insinuation it should just be believed.

There are pages full of that kind of stuff blocking up threads.

Cheers

P.S. One other thing that just occurred to me is that in all probability bad
shills and silly shills would not usually start threads or topics themselves.
And I think a troll would be considered an unpaid bad or silly shill.
Makes sense to me.

..

[dragon]

Absolutely excellent thread Farmhand ! I believe the Eight traits of the Disinformati says it all.

I had never heard of the term "shills" before you posted this.

[Black Sheep Bill]

How to spot shills - 10 Commandments

Here's how I spot the bogus BS...

1. Look for links to testimonials

2. Look for some advertorial link embedded in the signature line

3. Look for the mention of some penny stock symbol

4. Look for the name of any investment fund especially if there is a link to one

5. Look for newbies that are focused only on one subject - theirs!

6. Mentions of special offers with deadlines

7. Posts that contain phone numbers or email addresses

8. Posts that include ads embedded in the post as images

9. Posters that use logos as avatars

10.Posts that refuse to rebut or answer questions from challengers and just repeat their pitch or change the subject.

[Bob Smith]

I would add...
11. Character assassination as a diversion to draw attention away from
anything that would help the thread progress in its investigation.

12. Back and forth name-calling, flame wars to tire readers and again,
derail the conversation for a few pages until a promising post or one
worthy of further investigation is forgotten/abandoned.

13. Overly-focusing a thread on minutae of terminology with long posts and
protracted arguments to bury the wider picture.

14. Unsubstantiated name-calling to start protracted, distracting arguments
(e.g., "liar", "disinfo", "shill" - without hard evidence from posts, going only
on innuendo)

15. Poster portraying themself as victim when their posted comments or
info is exposed with hard evidence as untrue, using their "victim" status
to portray those who "out" them as an aggressor, and to polarize the
community. This can happen when the shill posts a highly technical, but
dead-end or very limited avenue for experimentation that tends to
bamboozle all but those who have a lot of experience in theoretical
E Engineering or Physics.

Look for the same individuals popping up, often in teams doing a combination of these things.


My 2 cents, from what I've seen.
Bob

[ewizard]

I think people get excited about possibilities. I also think it may be a possibility although somewhat remote that shills get on forums at a time when they see something promising come along. They then start something new to distract people from a good technology with something worthless and no hope of becoming a real world usable technology. This type of shill would of course be working for big oil, big energy companies or any company that has a big market which could be badly damaged if the new tech got a good foothold. Take battery companies like Duracell and Eveready. How many AA batteries do you think they sell each year? Just AA's. Now think about all the other sizes. Would they be affected if Thorium plasma batteries or some other long lasting (years or decades) batteries took off? Of course they would be destroyed.

However I think it is more likely that shills are not as much of a problem as trolls are. Trolls come in and try to disrupt, debunk, subvert and do anything they can to sidetrack or stop a productive discussion or research/project build thread. They are sometimes obvious in their constant naysaying. Other times they are more subtle. I personally wonder when I see fairly sudden shift in someone's mindset if their account may have been taken over by a troll. Consider that everyone is essentially anonymous to other users and if someone for some reason was no longer able to use a computer how hard would it be for their account to get taken over? I guarantee there are hackers who can do that on VBulletin forum software and that's one of the harder ones. What better situation for a big company to have than to gain an account of a known user?

I don't really think we have to be too concerned with shills as they can only distract for so long before being proven worthless. Trolls may throw a few people off course but any well versed user and anyone who has done their share of research will know there are many real energy technologies that have excellent chances to change this to a much better world.

[Leviathan]

This post seems like a good place to post about known "shills"
Black sheep bill and patriot are both shills or just bad trolls
they have purposefully disrupted interesting topics to start everyone
arguing and led off topic if you don't believe me look at their posts

[Farmhand]

Hi ewizard, There is a very thin line between naysaying and debunking but they
are different, a debunker will usually try to provide references and links or just
solid proven info to debunk what they see as wrong or misunderstood info ect.
whereas a naysayer will generally just say it can't be done with no reasons given
or insufficient or false reasons on purpose.

A debunker tries to prove something wrong, a naysayer doesn't they just naysay.

A sudden shift in someones mindset can be due to a revelation or the proper
understanding of things or even just a different understanding of things.

What I don't understand is why people ignore superior evidence to the
contrary of something while still clinging to belief which has no basis in fact
and no evidence to support it in real life. That is delusion. It is everybody's
right to be delusional if they want, but should everyone stop showing
evidence to the contrary of something for fear of upsetting another's belief ?

It seems to me that a great many people are believing almost anything that
sounds good and when people try to show evidence to the contrary they get
treated like a troll. Which in my opinion is a bit rough and counterproductive
because it creates a situation where anything goes, no evidence is needed
and no one will say anything for fear of being labeled a troll. I don't have that
fear, I'm not here for money or friends or notoriety, I want the truth and I
think most other people do too. I think the forums are being monopolized by
over unity claims and people claiming to be experts but are not, giving rise to
more and more confusion by way of their misconceptions.

I think it is fairly obvious some of the so called guru's lack even a basic
understanding of physics and electricity, I can safely say I am no expert. But
I can build things that are practical and efficient. Electronics and energy utilization
is not my first technical hobby it is merely an extention of all the other useful
things I've taught myself. Knowledge is a precious thing it is no wonder TPTB
don't want people to share it freely.

Beliefs can be shared very easily, technical knowledge on the other hand is
much more difficult to discern, it requires much effort.

I admit I have a lot of post's and I disagree a lot. The reason is I approach
this field of endeavor the same way I do any other which interests me, with
intensity, passion and dedication. I also admit that was once hoodwinked by all the false
claims but not anymore. And so I campaign against them.

Leviathan, Your entitled to your opinion of course, but I wasn't intending this
thread to name people. The intention was more to look at what the
possibilities are to identify them for our own good and maybe engage them
with the intention of having them show themselves up.

Naming specific people at this point could be considered as disruptive in itself.
I'm not saying that was your intention though.

Anyway Cheers

[Aaron]

skepticlowns

There are a few common denominators between them, one of the top 3 from experience dealing with so many is...

They come here and portray themselves as "being here to help". That because of their "experience" in electronics, physics, etc... that their expertise is available to help others here understand more better what they actually have.

One thing they are incapable of doing is arguing the points. When something they say is bogus, and it can be proved to be bogus, they simply act like they never said it or that they were never proven wrong. Their reply is usually on another topic, which is a stage magician's method called "misdirection" to point the attention to something completely irrelevant so as not to call attention to the real matter at hand, which is that they are trying to pull one over on everyone.

[mbrownn]

Watch for the straw man argument, a tactic commonly used on mythbusters . Straw man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Their debunking of Bedini's work was a perfect example. MIT engineer for credibility and then a misrepresentation of the Bedini device is built and tested. Total miss-informers, and they knew better.

[t-rex]

Jamming, surveillance, and dis-information, a professional view

It would seem that some of the "Internem" species which you all are considering was flushed out of the bush by my writings and notions here on the forum. Of course these are phantoms and could be mere "generated images". I have "Bolinas names" for these apparitions but they may not be understood here.

Most notable was Joe Blow, his Bolinas name. (Lawrence Livermore Labs). Another was Lucifer Lightship, his Bolinas name. (Commonweal) For the Bush people of Bolinas everything is expressed by an archetypical symbol, which of course is invisible to one who sees only a computer screen and never goes outside. It served as our "secret language".

Considerable effort has gone into disrupting my efforts and it would lead one to believe in conspiracy. I have massed together a considerable knowledge on this subject but its explanation is just as difficult as the algebraic expressions of transmission networks.

The actual workings of the "jamming mentality" takes much consideration and experience to quantify.

First, "Federal Agents are not likely, but possible (F.B.I.)

Second, the rules of logic, morality, and such, do not apply, here we are dealing with sick minded people with compulsive and spontaneous behavior patterns.

Third, the actual organizations involved profess to be very "spiritual", and they want to "save the planet" , (for themselves).

Final, is the lone zealot, Einstein lover, etc.

The actual source or motives of the jamming is occluded by the Hydrozoan principle. The Hydrozoan organism is a multi cellular structure with no brain or interconnection between cells. Each cell is independent, yet the entire body of these independent cells acts as One Unified Organism. This is one of the mysteries of biology. There is no one source, or conspiratorial group, in todays modern techno-fascistic society, each and every person contains the "little seed" in their minds. Upon receiving the proper stimulus any one person is instantly transformed into a "shill", "troll", "disrupter" or the like. This is what makes todays fascism so much more effective than that of Stalin, or the reaction, that of Hitler. Modern fascism is distributed, not centrallized. Looking at it in another view, what do you expect from Beavis and Butthead at the SuperBowl game anyway?

73 DE N6KPH

[Joit]

The actual source or motives of the jamming is occluded by the Hydrozoan principle. The Hydrozoan organism is a multi cellular structure with no brain or interconnection between cells. Each cell is independent, yet the entire body of these independent cells acts as One Unified Organism. This is one of the mysteries of biology. There is no one source, or conspiratorial group, in todays modern techno-fascistic society, each and every person contains the "little seed" in their minds. Upon receiving the proper stimulus any one person is instantly transformed into a "shill", "troll", "disrupter" or the like. This is what makes todays fascism so much more effective than that of Stalin, or the reaction, that of Hitler. Modern fascism is distributed, not centrallized. Looking at it in another view, what do you expect from Beavis and Butthead at the SuperBowl game anyway?

73 DE N6KPH

Looks like you are pointing at the absolute low level with a high grade in beeing Brainwashed. But they give usual up fast as they do grow up.

There are more Groups out in the meantime, because, you know, the Internet is a new Workspace, to make easy money without moving your B*tt to far and get payed.
They are at Wikipedia, Wikipedia - Israel is paying internet workers to manipulate online content - YouTube
and even at DoE like EyeCu posted here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post193972,
and i found a few other Networks, what work with that Methods.
Of course, the Economy is bad, easy Jobs are hard to get, when you are not one from the preferred circle of Persons, so why bother, sell your writing Talents, even when you dont have one, and afterwards your Soul, if you didnt allready.

The disinformation Army is already huge, you can find them at all the Comments Section from Newspapers and Blogs, and they train hard for it, to have success.

[Matthew Jones]

There are a few common denominators between them, one of the top 3 from experience dealing with so many is...

They come here and portray themselves as "being here to help". That because of their "experience" in electronics, physics, etc... that their expertise is available to help others here understand more better what they actually have.
One thing they are incapable of doing is arguing the points. When something they say is bogus, and it can be proved to be bogus, they simply act like they never said it or that they were never proven wrong. Their reply is usually on another topic, which is a stage magician's method called "misdirection" to point the attention to something completely irrelevant so as not to call attention to the real matter at hand, which is that they are trying to pull one over on everyone.

I have to agree with Aaron on this one, and add one more thing. They generally retaliate any confrontation by questioning the validity of the individual who has outed them.

I can usually spot them within a few posts and I have made a point of running them ragged in the past. Some of the arguing back and forth thats being spoke of is in part from my distaste of those people.

I do firmly believe there is one dedicated group of people who are working against any progress on this or similar boards, or maybe its just one person. The evidence comes to light as they modify the tactics they used in the previous attempts to make sure they do not get themselves in a fix similar to the previous "Shill".

But there are people who generally believe they are researchers who will in most cases interrupt a good thread with their mundane and unproven theories on regular basis just because they think they have the solution to everything.

Oh well I guess thats life.


Matt