Use for the Tesla Switch

[hherby]

[...]
The lame MJE13007 i post the SOA of seems to be able to go up to 55V only?
;-)

Yet they seem to make it handle 150V on a power supply? No chance for a long time AFAIK
[...]

Stevan,
When you extend the 1 amp line to the right on the SOA you posted, it looks like it can do 1 amp at 300V for 1ms. Am I interpreting that correctly? Would that mean you could run it at 1 amp at 100V on a 50% duty cycle @ 500hz?

Thanks
Alex

[Matthew Jones]

Well, if the motor will not run for 20 hours, then it is drawing too much current from the batteries.

You make a huge assumption. I have a lawn mower (robotic), it will run for 4-5 hours according to their specs 2 12V 17ah batteries in series. That thing and the charging (their charger) waste those batteries so fast it makes your head spin. I don't use their charger anymore, if I did, I might was well just light some money on fire. It draws way to much current for those little batteries.


It does not matter what wattage is on the motor, that is at max torque, but you do not run it at max torque. What matters is what the batteries like. They are living things.

Your little 5 amp batteries would be 5/20 = 250 ma MAX

If you are running it at 4 amps, then you should be using 4*20=80amp hour batteries, and it will charge those puppies up at 4 amps. You have to be heating those batteries up, causing quite a sulphation if you've used them for very long on that motor. The more you do that, the more sulphation will build up.

I hope JB says I'm wrong on this one, but he runs his batteries at C20 or below....I guarantee.

Leroy

Hmmm....I guess you know what your talking about...

Matt

[Matthew Jones]

Double posted.

[John_Bedini]

Tesla Switch

Lamare,
I know this is off topic, But Steorn is running the first motor I wrote about in that little book in 1984. Known as the year Jim Watson vanished into thin air never to talk to any of us again. Quite a trick Steorn is pulling with Triode coils, it just nothing more then a monopole with an out of phase generator, you do not see the capacitors do you but it is there. I will also bet it is running on 42ma.
John B

I know this is off-topic here, but it appears as though Steorn's "Orbo" stuff looks a lot like JB's:

Steorn's e-Orbo self-looped electromagnetic motor demonstration underway

"According to the explanation video, the e-Orbo consists of two components. The first component is a motor that looks like a traditional pulse motor in which an energy reservoir (the D-cell battery in this case) that energizes the coils to push the magnets causing rotation. A Reed switch determines when the pulse will fire. This particular configuration is unique in that it allegedly is generating 2 joules of energy of rotation for every 1 joule of energy consumed from the battery. "

"The rectification circuit is basically just a diode."

@JB: you may want to keep an eye on this, especially since they may be infringing on your patents....

[John_Bedini]

Tesla Switch

OK, suppose you have a high voltage level and only have a low voltage transistor, what to do? You can build a Totem Pole arrangement using one transistor as a slave, you can also increase the speed of the opto coupler the same way by using a pnp under the npn transistor. Just some things to think about if you feel you do not have the right devices.
JB

[ldissing]

That me

Hmmm....I guess you know what your talking about...

Matt

I know about c20, but I think JB will be able to say....whether or not it matters in the TS.

He talks about running on potential only, but at the same time, says that we need to use 1A DC. I believe that he is not actually speaking in riddles, even if some people see or think it seems that way. There is some current flowing in the switch, but we aren't using "current" in the normal way here. We are using the potential to move give the current a direction, and the batteries are just allowing us to have some potential so we can do what we want with the charges. I like to use charges more than "current", because what we think current is well...just electrons flowing, but it is multi-faceted and consists of steams of different charges flowing in opposite directions.

Anyway, I think JB could actually say it better, and maybe for the TS, the amperage flowing through the load is immaterial, in this ONE application...the TS.

With any other application, you would kill the batteries doing what you are doing...and that is also what most other people do. The C20 is there for a reason, and you can abuse it a little, and get by. Abuse it a lot and eventually, you will kill that pretty little battery dead. A conventional charger will NOT be able to charge it and you will get NO current out of it. Unless you can desulphate it, but forget doing that with a conventional charger, maybe Battery Minder can help you a little bit, but it is still a current pusher.

Leroy

P.S. I hope JB will respond to all on this one, because he KNOWS!

[John_Bedini]

Tesla Switch

Leroy,

When I speak about 1 amp at DC it's only to point out that if you pick a device and it does not survive the punishment we wish to place on it the test will fail. Since the Tesla Switch does switch current we must choose the correct devices. But my theory is that potential which is voltage can be switch without current in excess. When the current is very low the energy we seek shows up, the devices must be able to stand this spike without break down. I do not mean to speak in riddles. It would be nice to develop switching that works this way, I think that is what I'm working for.
I have come to a strange conclusion that switching is everything.

I have built now in the past weeks 50 different units every which way just to see what each layout does different. I made some with clip leads, some with extra long traces, some with skinny traces going different ways and so on.
I think what the group will find out about me is that I look at everything, including ways to use lower voltage transistors and speed up opto couplers. I put my Ideas up on this group, hold nothing back here. I can't give away company stuff, but I can do this type of research with the group.

I really do not worry about killing batteries as people bring them to me all day long to experiment with. If the battery bible was not such a big PDF I would post it here. I believe that if the switch is developed to use ground currents we are all home free. You may think I'm talking in riddles again but I'm very committed to what I do in this field. I will only post information that I think will help everybody here.
JB

[lamare]

Since the Tesla Switch does switch current we must choose the correct devices. But my theory is that potential which is voltage can be switch without current in excess. When the current is very low the energy we seek shows up, the devices must be able to stand this spike without break down. I do not mean to speak in riddles. It would be nice to develop switching that works this way, I think that is what I'm working for.
I have come to a strange conclusion that switching is everything.

What do you mean by switching potential/voltage without current in excess?

The way I think of this is that the potential/voltage is nothing other than the electric field, which is one and the same what you like to call "radiant energy". I remember you saying in a video that "it's a gas", which I understand to refer to the ether, which is exactly the same as what Eric Dollard talks about:
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)

The key point is that the electric field travels as a wave trough the ether and that it exists on its own. If we talk about an electric field without current, we usually call that "static" electricity. However, the field is not static at all, it is a constant stream of energy that is free for the taking, in principle. Prof. Turtur did a very nice job in calculating the energy density of the electric field (page 10-14):

http://www.wbabin.net/physics/turtur1e.pdf

So, we have an electric field that exists on its own and that is created/emited out of every charge that exists. What we can do with switching, is basically moving charges around. This means, we can alter the configuration of the dipoles that create the resulting electric field(s). However, one cannot "switch" the electric field itself.

What you really do when switching a coil, is to cut of the electric current (charge movements) that creates a magetic field inside the coil. Because this current is being pushed to go on by the magnetic field, you get a whole pile of charge at one end of the coil, which will give you a voltage spike. A voltage spike traveling at the speed of light trough the ether, around your wires. A voltage spike of energy that is free for the taking and is apparantly able to charge a cap or a battery, without you having to provide a current to do that. So, the energy comes from the field for free, while the charge/current comes from somewhere else, probably one way or the other from within the battery or cap itself.

So, in IMHO, the energy we seek shows up when we create a high voltage the ordinary way with a coil. And the high voltage is created when a current going trough a coil/inductor is suddenly stopped.

So, you need a device capable of handling enough current to energize the coil on the one hand, while on the other hand it needs to be capable of surviving the high voltage pulse that occurs on the coil.

So, IMHO, switching per se is not everything. It's the sudden switching of coils/inductors that creates the spikes.

[Matthew Jones]

I know about C20, but I think JB will be able to say....whether or not it matters in the TS.

I taken those same batteries and ran 8 amp loads across them on a switch. Although the loss is higher the batteries should have only ran minutes until going dead, they should have gotten hot, alongside the wires. I should have warped the plates and all kinds of stuff. But it didn't happen.

I have direct connected them when they were fully charged and cycled them back and forth while connected to 10 gauge wire. No Load, Direct connection. In fact I was trying to hurt the battery. I didn't.

In fact is in both cases they didn't get hot, they didn't bubble or boil, and most important they kept working. In fact since I got those four little batteries all they have done is run Tesla switch's, with no failure.

My point being is along time ago I got those tests out of the way. I know exactly how much punishment I can put on those batts and I know exactly how they should act.

And you will too when you have built a few. Its one thing to guess correctly its another when you have learned it through trial and error. Stop assuming you know what your talking about and get something built that proves it.

Thats all I am going to say on that.
Matt

[John_K]

Switching is everything.

What do you mean by switching potential/voltage without current in excess?

[....]

So, IMHO, switching per se is not everything. It's the sudden switching of coils/inductors that creates the spikes.

Hi lamare,

Excellently written, I could not have said it better.

I think you answered your own question. The abrupt discharge of the coil with fast switching is what delivers the goods.

I see the Tesla Switch as almost a dual SSG circuit, especially when a coil is used as the load. By alternating the current and potential back and forth through the load when the transistors (or relays, in my case) fire we are purposely flipping the poles of the coil's core. This creates a pump for the Bloch wall in the middle of the core. JB does a good job of explaining this in one of the EFTV DVDs.

If it is switched quickly enough the HV spike hits all four batteries at once, but also the transistors, so they have to be tough to take the HV pounding that they get.

JB's picture of the amp meter going back and forth when it switches shows that the current AND the potential change from positive to negative to positive, etc. If there is a voltage drop of say, +10V over the load and then -10V, then the differenence in potential is 20V.

The same goes for the current, if the load draws, say 1A then the difference in current when it switches is 2A. So the devices must be able to also handle these ratings or they will fail.

Just the way I see it...

John K.

[Matthew Jones]

If it is switched quickly enough the HV spike hits all four batteries at once, but also the transistors, so they have to be tough to take the HV pounding that they get.

It makes good sense except for one thing. Which may be achievable. For the spikes to hit all 4 batteries at the same time, your off time would consist of all four batteries having to be ON, in a 12 volt state. No potential flow.
We would have a scenario of something like...
Side A is switched to 24 volt mode
Side B is it 12 volt mode.
We power the load.
We shut the load off at the same time we leave Side B in parallel and switch Side A to parallel.
The spike flows. Then we start again but opposite.

I guess in Mr Johns circuit that easily achieved.

HMMMM...

Matt

[John_K]

It makes good sense except for one thing. Which may be achievable. For the spikes to hit all 4 batteries at the same time, your off time would consist of all four batteries having to be ON, in a 12 volt state. No potential flow.
We would have a scenario of something like...
Side A is switched to 24 volt mode
Side B is it 12 volt mode.
We power the load.
We shut the load off at the same time we leave Side B in parallel and switch Side A to parallel.
The spike flows. Then we start again but opposite.

I guess in Mr Johns circuit that easily achieved.

HMMMM...

Matt

Hi Matt,

I'm not sure I understand how you could have both banks in parallel. You might have to run that by me again. But I'm tired an will probably get it in the morning.

I think the spike hits all four batteries through the bottom negatives. When I ran around with a neon, the neon would light up on every battery terminal when I switched the relay EXCEPT for the positive of the battery the load was connected to.

Now, why is that? I have to sleep on that.

John K.

[StevanC]

Stevan,
When you extend the 1 amp line to the right on the SOA you posted, it looks like it can do 1 amp at 300V for 1ms. Am I interpreting that correctly? Would that mean you could run it at 1 amp at 100V on a 50% duty cycle @ 500hz?

Thanks
Alex

Alex,
i think not?

I looked up the datasheet I have and all data seems to be Tc=25C (case temperature) related.

This means:
One single (!) pulse of <X> duration and no other until the junction cools down and case is Tc=25C (probably no heat sink)

The other ratings (forward voltage drop FVD) of 1V for 2A and 2V for 5A are rated (asterisk):
2% D/C (duty cycle) and PW (pulse width)of 300usec (ON pulse=6usec)

Pretty lame don't You find?
then there is the thermal derating curve (horror!)... only nibbles left...

I think now i would pick the PSU trannies to be MJL4281 or at least MJW21194?
x10 times the power of the MJE13007 while not the price?

Stevan C.

[StevanC]

One more confusing detail

OK, suppose you have a high voltage level and only have a low voltage transistor, what to do? You can build a Totem Pole arrangement using one transistor as a slave, you can also increase the speed of the opto coupler the same way by using a pnp under the npn transistor. Just some things to think about if you feel you do not have the right devices.
JB

Mr. John,

Re Opto:
You mean a "bipolar Schmitt" trigger with both bases short for input and both emitters short for output?

I think they call it "complementary emitter follower"?
Provides "gain in current" yet no "gain in voltage"?

Isn't the "driver circuit" comprising two 2N2222 in the Brandt's scalar charger a Schimitt trigger (not bipolar, but a 2xNPN = unipolar)?

this is what i refer to: (from Wikipedia)


I had it running but didn't know back then it's a Schmitt?
Q: And wouldn't it be by far better to "Schmitt up" the driver stage adjacent to the power stage? All the "clean mean" switching speed goes lost over the opto (usually a slower BJT)?

Stevan C.

[StevanC]

Mr. John,
isn't the MJL4281 a bit better than the MJL21194? It seems to be a "match" but has 35MHz of speed and 90V more breakdown, while managing ~140V@1A for ~1sec?

And both look like the (better) successors of MJ15024 to me?

Any comment?