Use for the Tesla Switch

[citfta]

How to get power out.

I got a little time and redrew John's circuit to show how we might be able to get power out and get charging at the same time. See what you think. If this works then we can run a DC load from this without a bridge rectifier. If I have got this wrong then please explain where I made my mistake. Thanks, citfta

[hherby]

Diode loop?

Hello team.

I have been looking at JB's latest post and I can't get my head around the diode loop with the topmost 4 diodes and the diode connected to the collector of the left BJT. Correct me if I am overlooking something, but when the left BJT is turned on, doesn't that create a short across the top left battery from the positive terminal through 4 diodes in series leading back to the collector-emmiter junction to the top left battery negative terminal? That left BJT would have to be turned off in a very very short time before current could flow and and fry all the devices in the loop.

In the other TS schematics, the topmost two diodes in JB's latest schematic would be BJT's to prevent this shorting condition.

Thoughts?

Edit: I attached an image with the diode loop hightlighted.

Alex

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

Hello team.

I have been looking at JB's latest post and I can't get my head around the diode loop with the topmost 4 diodes and the diode connected to the collector of the left BJT. Correct me if I am overlooking something, but when the left BJT is turned on, doesn't that create a short across the top left battery from the positive terminal through 4 diodes in series leading back to the collector-emmiter junction to the top left battery negative terminal? That left BJT would have to be turned off in a very very short time before current could flow and and fry all the devices in the loop.

In the other TS schematics, the topmost two diodes in JB's latest schematic would be BJT's to prevent this shorting condition.

Thoughts?

Edit: I attached an image with the diode loop hightlighted.

Alex

What if the load is connected like this;

Bit's

[citfta]

Shorting diodes

Hi Team,

I have to agree with hherby. I overlooked the diode connections when I was looking at this drawing. Bits, if we connect it like you are showing we would only power the load for half the cycle. If we replace the diodes with transistors like hherby suggested then we could connect the load like I have suggested. And there are probably even better ways to do it that someone else may be able to show us. That's a hint John B. I am sure we will get there eventually with John's help. I am glad we can all work together instead of like some other forums I have visited. Thanks to all the team, citfta

[StevanC]

do You SPICE?

Hi,
here is the SPICE file (I call it Brandt-04.asc)

Version 4
SHEET 1 2568 1612
WIRE 752 -432 384 -432
WIRE 1184 -432 832 -432
WIRE 800 -304 752 -304
WIRE 912 -304 880 -304
WIRE 656 -272 640 -272
WIRE 816 -272 736 -272
WIRE 384 -240 384 -432
WIRE 640 -240 640 -272
WIRE 640 -240 384 -240
WIRE 912 -240 912 -304
WIRE 1184 -240 1184 -432
WIRE 1184 -240 912 -240
WIRE 640 -224 640 -240
WIRE 912 -224 912 -240
WIRE 384 -176 384 -240
WIRE 1184 -176 1184 -240
WIRE 384 -32 384 -96
WIRE 512 -32 384 -32
WIRE 640 -32 640 -160
WIRE 752 -32 752 -304
WIRE 752 -32 640 -32
WIRE 816 -32 816 -272
WIRE 912 -32 912 -160
WIRE 912 -32 816 -32
WIRE 1184 -32 1184 -96
WIRE 1184 -32 1040 -32
WIRE 192 -16 160 -16
WIRE 288 -16 256 -16
WIRE 512 -16 512 -32
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WIRE 1408 -16 1376 -16
WIRE 1040 0 1040 -32
WIRE 384 32 384 -32
WIRE 1184 32 1184 -32
WIRE -80 80 -128 80
WIRE -48 80 -80 80
WIRE 160 80 160 -16
WIRE 160 80 144 80
WIRE 192 80 160 80
WIRE 288 80 288 -16
WIRE 288 80 256 80
WIRE 320 80 288 80
WIRE 1280 80 1280 -16
WIRE 1280 80 1248 80
WIRE 1312 80 1280 80
WIRE 1408 80 1408 -16
WIRE 1408 80 1376 80
WIRE 1424 80 1408 80
WIRE 1648 80 1616 80
WIRE 1680 80 1648 80
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WIRE 640 96 640 -32
WIRE 912 96 912 -32
WIRE 1680 96 1680 80
WIRE -48 176 -128 176
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WIRE 384 176 144 176
WIRE 640 176 640 160
WIRE 640 176 384 176
WIRE 912 176 912 160
WIRE 1184 176 1184 128
WIRE 1184 176 912 176
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WIRE 1680 176 1616 176
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WIRE 1040 208 736 208
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WIRE 512 240 512 48
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WIRE 512 384 512 352
WIRE 512 384 448 384
WIRE 1040 384 1040 352
WIRE 1184 384 1184 320
WIRE 1184 384 1040 384
WIRE 512 416 512 384
WIRE 544 416 512 416
WIRE 736 416 736 208
WIRE 736 416 624 416
WIRE 816 416 816 240
WIRE 928 416 816 416
WIRE 1040 416 1040 384
WIRE 1040 416 1008 416
WIRE 384 512 384 384
WIRE 736 512 384 512
WIRE 1184 512 1184 384
WIRE 1184 512 816 512
FLAG -80 80 0
FLAG 1648 80 0
FLAG 448 384 0
SYMBOL Misc\\battery 384 -192 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 24 132 Left 0
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=17m
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 12.5
SYMBOL Misc\\battery 384 224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 24 132 Left 0
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=17m
SYMATTR InstName V2
SYMATTR Value 12.5
SYMBOL Misc\\battery 1184 -192 M0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 24 132 Left 0
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=17m
SYMATTR InstName V3
SYMATTR Value 12.5
SYMBOL Misc\\battery 1184 224 M0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 24 132 Left 0
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=17m
SYMATTR InstName V4
SYMATTR Value 12.5
SYMBOL npn 320 128 M180
SYMATTR InstName Q2
SYMATTR Value MJL21194
SYMBOL npn 1248 128 R180
SYMATTR InstName Q5
SYMATTR Value MJL21194
SYMBOL diode 624 -160 M180
WINDOW 0 24 72 Left 0
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName D1
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL diode 656 96 M0
SYMATTR InstName D2
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL diode 928 -160 R180
WINDOW 0 24 72 Left 0
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName D3
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL diode 896 96 R0
SYMATTR InstName D4
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL diode 496 352 M180
WINDOW 0 24 72 Left 0
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName D9
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL diode 496 -16 R0
SYMATTR InstName D10
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL diode 1056 352 R180
WINDOW 0 24 72 Left 0
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName D11
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL current -128 96 M0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 3 46 361 VLeft 0
SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 {Id} {T/2} 1u 1u {T*DC} {T})
SYMATTR InstName I3
SYMBOL current 1680 96 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 3 56 23 VRight 0
SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 {Id} 0 1u 1u {T*DC} {T})
SYMATTR InstName I6
SYMBOL cap 256 96 M270
WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 0
WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 0
SYMATTR InstName C4
SYMATTR Value 0.1µ
SYMBOL diode 192 0 R270
WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 0
WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 0
SYMATTR InstName D18
SYMATTR Value MURS120
SYMBOL Optos\\PC817B 48 128 M180
SYMATTR InstName U2
SYMBOL cap 1312 64 M90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 0.1µ
SYMBOL diode 1376 -32 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName D20
SYMATTR Value MURS120
SYMBOL Optos\\PC817B 1520 128 R180
SYMATTR InstName U4
SYMBOL diode 1056 0 M0
SYMATTR InstName D5
SYMATTR Value MURS320
SYMBOL res 896 -320 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 20
SYMBOL res 640 -288 M90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 20
SYMBOL res 640 400 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 20
SYMBOL res 912 400 M90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 20
SYMBOL res 720 496 M90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R5
SYMATTR Value 1m
SYMBOL res 736 -448 M90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0
SYMATTR InstName R6
SYMATTR Value 40
TEXT -8 -232 Left 0 !.tran 0 5m 10u
TEXT 320 -224 Left 0 ;REDa
TEXT 320 -48 Left 0 ;YELa
TEXT 312 192 Left 0 ;ORGa
TEXT 320 368 Left 0 ;BLKa
TEXT 1192 -224 Left 0 ;REDb
TEXT 1192 -48 Left 0 ;YELb
TEXT 1192 192 Left 0 ;ORGb
TEXT 1192 368 Left 0 ;BLKb
TEXT -8 -184 Left 0 !.param Id=50mA
TEXT -8 -80 Left 0 !.include MJL21194.lib
TEXT -8 -152 Left 0 !.param T=2m
TEXT -8 -120 Left 0 !.param DC=0.05
TEXT 624 -336 Left 0 ;LOAD
TEXT 864 -368 Left 0 ;LOAD
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TEXT 952 480 Left 0 ;LOAD
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RECTANGLE Normal 880 464 1024 368
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CIRCLE Normal 304 16 432 144
CIRCLE Normal 1264 144 1136 16

copy & paste to a text editor and save with .asc extension, Have it loaded by LT spice (Google for it if unfamiliar)


And i hope server lets through the .asc (in a zipped file) ;-)
So try and see it in Your SPICE?

It works, now just tune it?


Mr. John, is that it? (have to build it still...)

regards,
Stevan C.

[StevanC]

You will need this file too:

I call it: MJL21194.lib

.MODEL MJL21194 npn
+IS=9.56205e-11 BF=62.3633 NF=0.858602 VAF=29.6613
+IKF=9.86004 ISE=7.00007e-12 NE=3.43749 BR=4.96358
+NR=0.925054 VAR=6.18692 IKR=4.87016 ISC=3.25e-13
+NC=4 RB=11.0204 IRB=0.1 RBM=0.1
+RE=0.000675706 RC=0.124974 XTB=0.150823 XTI=1.00001
+EG=1.11955 CJE=1.70807e-08 VJE=0.4 MJE=0.520397
+TF=1e-08 XTF=47.3046 VTF=1.88154 ITF=0.560261
+CJC=5e-10 VJC=0.95 MJC=0.238884 XCJC=0.800727
+FC=0.8 CJS=0 VJS=0.75 MJS=0.5
+TR=1e-07 PTF=0 KF=0 AF=1
* Model generated on Jan 25, 2004
* Model format: PSpice

so The negative resistance of the transistor renders hopefully correct in SPICE

I also have the screenshot uploaded

there are four "ballast" loads

And the top load is the "payload" and the bottom load (1m) i a dummy load just to get the volts to the upper load.

If both top and bottom are same they get as little as ~6V each, but with the bottom "shorted" the top gets about ~8V+

Is this in line with the theory?

[hherby]

What if the load is connected like this;

Bit's

Well, that would draw power from the top left battery and if drawing current through the load it would kill the dipole of the battery would it not?

I would think one of the places we can draw power is from the over potentialized parallel bank of batteries and only long enough until the over potential is used up.

If the idea is to run the system on potential only, we have at least 2 devices that will translate sharp potential gradients into electron current. Batteries or capacitors. If the batteries and capacitors are simultaneously charged by the over potential (in parallel paths), the batteries could continue to provide the source for the charging potential and perhaps the power for the load could be drawn from the capacitors.

Consider the TS circuit where the caps, bridge and load are in parallel to the high and low side negatives. I am wondering if the short sharp gradients which hits both of the caps on either side of the bridge might possibly create or help sustain some kind of resonant wave bouncing back and forth between the caps through the bridge and load?

Food for thought. I wonder how one would go about trying to determine if that is or is not the case experimentally?

Alex

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

Well, that would draw power from the top left battery and if drawing current through the load it would kill the dipole of the battery would it not?

I would think one of the places we can draw power is from the over potentialized parallel bank of batteries and only long enough until the over potential is used up.

If the idea is to run the system on potential only, we have at least 2 devices that will translate sharp potential gradients into electron current. Batteries or capacitors. If the batteries and capacitors are simultaneously charged by the over potential (in parallel paths), the batteries could continue to provide the source for the charging potential and perhaps the power for the load could be drawn from the capacitors.

Consider the TS circuit where the caps, bridge and load are in parallel to the high and low side negatives. I am wondering if the short sharp gradients which hits both of the caps on either side of the bridge might possibly create or help sustain some kind of resonant wave bouncing back and forth between the caps through the bridge and load?

Food for thought. I wonder how one would go about trying to determine if that is or is not the case experimentally?

Alex

Alex that's an interesting thought but consider how much the load could consume and the charge time on the caps. Would there be enough surge left over to charge the batts? Perhaps but the load would have to be considerably small in comparison to the battries (all) capacity. But who am I to say without testing. Great thoughts, that's the greatness of this forum.

Bit's

[Matthew Jones]

You guys are missing it....

You don't put the load on the HOT sides of the battery (I guess you could but...). You pull the load to get the work done from one side. Then you put the power back with the other. OR you pull a load for a period if time between the 2 poles of the battery, then you disconnect the load and charge.
Either Way...
See Attachments....If you turn it on to the point at which the RISE in POTENTIAL turns to amperage (At point B) then shut it off.
See attachment 2... Measure the time it takes the power to rise at point B compared to the time the power rose at point A. A should be a wider pulse than B. Because A gets turned on first , then as soon as B goes on the horizontal turn off the system then switch direction. (A is the discharge, B is the charge sides)

This way you have enough POTENTIAL FLOW to power a load. But you really aren't taking from the battery. As soon as the power moves it gets turned back around to go to return to its source. At the same time you have added Potential to the charge side of the battery.
You have MOVED power out of the discharge battery onto the wire, then turned it around. Everything on the wire or in the load returns to the source. Pushed back by the other side.

Every load and setup will be different based the construction (IE Amount of wire, resistance, type of load) of the apparatus. Everybody will have a different timing scenario.

I hope I am right anyway...

Matt

Attachments .... Are full
http://www.matthewcjones.com/power/TSWave.jpg
http://www.matthewcjones.com/power/TSMeasure.jpg

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

I hope I am right anyway...

Matt

And I think you are (right that is). Attached is a "concept" of how the "load" and "Charge" circuit could be managed through a relay. So you would have a "Duty cycle" of load time or charge time but not both.

Thoughts

Bit's

[citfta]

Getting power from the TS

Hi team.


@ Matthew. Would the circuit I have attached do what you are saying if the pulses were adjusted correctly? So far it looks like the simplest I have seen. I want to build it as soon as I have some time and control the transistors like John has shown us with the SG3524n and the opto-isolators.

Thanks, citfta

[John_Bedini]

Here, I will post it again.
JB

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

Here, I will post it again.
JB

Thanks John.

Now its time to test.

Bit's

[Matthew Jones]

Mr John.

What your saying is if the discharge is 18 volt. We need to keep the system on long enough for the charge point to reach 14 volt. Then shut the system off in that direction and or switch direction.

Any answer on timing would be appriciated.

Thanks
Matt

[ldissing]

What does the diagram say?

Mr John.

What your saying is if the discharge is 18 volt. We need to keep the system on long enough for the charge point to reach 14 volt. Then shut the system off in that direction and or switch direction.

Any answer on timing would be appriciated.

Thanks
Matt

@Matt

series batteries - diode drops (~18V if batteries are at 12V) - potential across the light must be >= parallel battery voltage + 2.

Series (Vs ) - 6 (Vd) - potential across light (Vl) = parallel(Vp) + 2

Solve the equation

Vs - Vp - 8 = Vl (max potential drop across the load)

Matt, I believe that he is saying that the light will have a potential drop across it. You can NOT have a 12V bulb in there, you can't have a 9V bulb in there, you can not have a 6V bulb in there. You have to have a 4 volt or less bulb in there, to get at least 14V (2V over the battery voltage) to get the battery to charge. You can run a load at a higher potential, but do not expect the batteries to charge.

You do not need current, just potential. So, your load can not have a big potential drop. What bulbs does JB have in his little test board. They are 3.2 to 3.8 V 20ma high intensity diodes. Ah, less than 4V.

If you want to get power out of the system, then just hook the load up to the batteries, or run it at a 50% duty cycle (with the 3524, just disconnect the resistor to ground from pin 2, i.e. no additional delay) and it will run longer than it would on the 4 batteries alone.

Leroy