Use for the Tesla Switch

[ldissing]

I taken those same batteries and ran 8 amp loads across them on a switch. Although the loss is higher the batteries should have only ran minutes until going dead, they should have gotten hot, alongside the wires. I should have warped the plates and all kinds of stuff. But it didn't happen.

I have direct connected them when they were fully charged and cycled them back and forth while connected to 10 gauge wire. No Load, Direct connection. In fact I was trying to hurt the battery. I didn't.

In fact is in both cases they didn't get hot, they didn't bubble or boil, and most important they kept working. In fact since I got those four little batteries all they have done is run Tesla switch's, with no failure.

My point being is along time ago I got those tests out of the way. I know exactly how much punishment I can put on those batts and I know exactly how they should act.

And you will too when you have built a few. Its one thing to guess correctly its another when you have learned it through trial and error. Stop assuming you know what your talking about and get something built that proves it.

Thats all I am going to say on that.
Matt

Well, all I can say to that is, "Yes'um BOSS man".

I have not ruined a single battery on the TS, but in other applications I've seen batteries only last 6 months (and they were continually going downhill) before they were unable to be recharged properly with a conventional charger. Maybe they were just bad batteries to begin with?

TS related:
I have also connected them with no load - straight connections (neg to neg), just switching on the TS and it did not kill the batteries, that is why I said on the TS it may not be true. But, I did not run it shorted for extended periods of time in that configuration either, so I'm not positive that it won't, but you seem to be and that is great.

Wish JB had chimed in on this one, but we can leave it for another day.
***EDIT Actually, I think he did give us his expert opinion...if we use the negative side...we are all home free......MEANING pull as much as you want possibly? EDIT***

Batteries:
I thought you said your batteries were not charging? Perhaps I was incorrect, but that is the main reason I suggested bigger batteries...perhaps you were pulling so much amperage from them that even the potential could not cause the ions in the batteries to go into recharge mode. Your call.

No offense taken, appreciate your input, and I'll just shut my BIG mouth on this topic from now on.

What do you use to charge your batteries?

Leroy

P.S. Does this mean you won't invite me over for coffee?

[ldissing]

Leroy,

When I speak about 1 amp at DC it's only to point out that if you pick a device and it does not survive the punishment we wish to place on it the test will fail. Since the Tesla Switch does switch current we must choose the correct devices. But my theory is that potential which is voltage can be switch without current in excess. When the current is very low the energy we seek shows up, the devices must be able to stand this spike without break down. I do not mean to speak in riddles. It would be nice to develop switching that works this way, I think that is what I'm working for.
I have come to a strange conclusion that switching is everything.

I have built now in the past weeks 50 different units every which way just to see what each layout does different. I made some with clip leads, some with extra long traces, some with skinny traces going different ways and so on.
I think what the group will find out about me is that I look at everything, including ways to use lower voltage transistors and speed up opto couplers. I put my Ideas up on this group, hold nothing back here. I can't give away company stuff, but I can do this type of research with the group.

I really do not worry about killing batteries as people bring them to me all day long to experiment with. If the battery bible was not such a big PDF I would post it here. I believe that if the switch is developed to use ground currents we are all home free. You may think I'm talking in riddles again but I'm very committed to what I do in this field. I will only post information that I think will help everybody here.
JB

Riddles:

I think MY problem is that you speak sometimes of different things, and I don't always know what you are speaking of in reference too. I take all of your input, which is excellent, and seek that reference. We are talking about at least two devices on this thread, but when the reference is missing, so I do not know if you are speaking in general terms, in reference to the TS, or Scalar Charger, or what. So, I have to guess and try it with a particular setup.

It is a personal problem on this side. I once sat through every class (9 different hours) for a college calculus II course, just so I could find a "teacher" I could understand. I could only understand properly the way the last one taught and I aced every test. If I had stayed in the original class, I would have failed, because I could not understand the WAY he taught. Everyone learns in a different way, some by pictures, some by hearing, all by doing. At least most of the people here are doing, and that is a learning process in itself.

I hope I did not offend, that was not intended. Anything written is easy to misinterpret, as there is little inflection in writing. No offense intended.

I must have been in rare form...saying all kinds of stupid things...got hammered by Matt and offended JB. Wish I could be testing instead of posting only.

Leroy

[Murlin]

Diode type

Howdy guys.

As some of you know I am working on the mechanical solution to the TS.

I had a question on the diodes that split the 24 volts coming into the 12 volt bank.
Since these diodes are only there to insure that both batteries in the parallel bank receive the full charging potential and do not have to work with any other semiconductors, would a PIN diode suit the bill here?

The 1N1184's called for in the schematic I used are not fast enough. So why not use a diode that never turns off? The data says that the PIN has poor recovery time but would they need to?

Please bear with me as I know you guys are well versed in the usage all of these components.
I have been doing allot of research on how diodes work and it is a little confusing for me to say the least.

I realize that most if not all of you are not interested in the mechanical solution. So I will try to keep the discussion on one to a minimum.

The other alternative I was looking into was a Schottky. They are really fast. Since they use a metal and a silicon layer they have zero recovery time.

Any diode advice would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Murlin

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

Howdy guys.

As some of you know I am working on the mechanical solution to the TS.

I had a question on the diodes that split the 24 volts coming into the 12 volt bank.
Since these diodes are only there to insure that both batteries in the parallel bank receive the full charging potential and do not have to work with any other semiconductors, would a PIN diode suit the bill here?

The 1N1184's called for in the schematic I used are not fast enough. So why not use a diode that never turns off? The data says that the PIN has poor recovery time but would they need to?

Please bear with me as I know you guys are well versed in the usage all of these components.
I have been doing allot of research on how diodes work and it is a little confusing for me to say the least.

I realize that most if not all of you are not interested in the mechanical solution. So I will try to keep the discussion on one to a minimum.

The other alternative I was looking into was a Schottky. They are really fast. Since they use a metal and a silicon layer they have zero recovery time.

Any diode advice would be much appreciated.

Regards,

Murlin

Hi Murlin, these are the ones I have been using;
497-2737-5-ND DIODE SCHOTTKY 100V 8A TO-220AC.

Thanks

Bit's

[hherby]

Alex,
i think not?

I looked up the datasheet I have and all data seems to be Tc=25C (case temperature) related.

This means:
One single (!) pulse of <X> duration and no other until the junction cools down and case is Tc=25C (probably no heat sink)

The other ratings (forward voltage drop FVD) of 1V for 2A and 2V for 5A are rated (asterisk):
2% D/C (duty cycle) and PW (pulse width)of 300usec (ON pulse=6usec)

Pretty lame don't You find?
then there is the thermal derating curve (horror!)... only nibbles left...

I think now i would pick the PSU trannies to be MJL4281 or at least MJW21194?
x10 times the power of the MJE13007 while not the price?

Stevan C.

Thanks Stevan,

I have come to the conclusion that I would have to be an EE to make heads or tails out of those spec sheets.

Alex

[StevanC]

Or just to ponder about as much as one?

[Helijason]

Thanks Stevan,

I have come to the conclusion that I would have to be an EE to make heads or tails out of those spec sheets.

Alex

Alex, these are non-linear devices and can be difficult to understand. That's why I went digital, nothing hard about 1s and 0s!

Jason

[Dave Michael Rogers]

Howdy guys.


I realize that most if not all of you are not interested in the mechanical solution. So I will try to keep the discussion on one to a minimum.

:

Hi Murlin,

I'm interested in the mechanical switch, still building the bigger one.

Regards
Dave

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

The &quot;Digital&quot; controlled Tesla Switch

Theory of Operation

The “PICAXE-18X Digital Controlled Tesla Switch” is comprised mainly of the following parts;

1n4001-Q1 1n4001
1n4001-Q2 1n4001
C1 0.01uf 103
Cap-Q1 1.0uf
Cap-Q2 1.0uf
D1 STPS8H100D 497-2737-5-ND
D3 STPS8H100D 497-2737-5-ND
D5 STPS8H100D 497-2737-5-ND
D7 STPS8H100D 497-2737-5-ND
D9 STPS8H100D 497-2737-5-ND
D10 STPS8H100D 497-2737-5-ND
D2-D6 30CPU04PbE
D4-D8 30CPU04PbE
DB9
J1 Battery Connector DG126
J2 Battery Connector DG126
J3 Battery Connector DG126
J4 Battery Connector DG126
J5 J5 Connector DG126
J6 J6 Connector DG126
LED1 Red
LED2 Blue
Q1 MJL21194
Q2 MJL21194
R1 150R 2 Watt
R2 10k 1/2 Watt
R3 10k 1/4 Watt
R4 22k 1/4 Watt
R5 330R 1/4 Watt
R6 330R 1/4 Watt
R7 10K 1/4 Watt
R8 47K 1/4 Watt
R9 10K 1/4 Watt
R10 47K 1/4 Watt
SW1 Reset E28
U1 PICAXE-18X
U2 LM324
U-Q1 H11d1
U-Q2 H11d1
Z1 1N4733A

Basically this circuit can be broken down to the following circuits;

“Brains” – PICAXE-18X

“Sensing” – LM324

“Switching” – MJL21194 & H11d1

“Power Supply” – Z1, R1, & C1

Listed below is the code to give intelligence for the PICAXE-18X (U1) to operate. Do not let this code be intimidating. It is very easy if you walk through each line and understand what it is doing.

Start:
SYMBOL ChargeSense = W1 '# Reserves buffer for ChargeSense Value
SYMBOL BattLVLSense = W2 '# Reserves buffer for BattLVLSense Value
SYMBOL TotalCompare = W3 '# Res. buff ChargeSense + BattLVLSense

Main:
readadc 1, ChargeSense '# Reads voltage at pin 18
readadc 2, BattLVLSense '# Reads voltage at pin 1

let b1 = 0 '# Reset counter


let TotalCompare = BattLVLSense + ChargeSense # Determine the capacity

If TotalCompare > 255 then '# Determine if a load can be applied
high 3 '# Apply the load
else
low 3 '# Turn the load off
endif


if ChargeSense < BattLVLSense then SwitchGroup1 '# Batts 2 and 4 are low
if ChargeSense > BattLVLSense then SwitchGroup2 '# Batts 1 and 3 are low
if ChargeSense = BattLVLSense then SwitchGroup3 '# Batts are good


SwitchGroup1: ' # Favors Oscillating Q1
do
pulsout 4,500 ' # Send 1/2 second pulses out of pin 10
inc b1 ' # let's increment the counter
if pin1 = 1 then exit ' # error check
loop while ChargeSense < BattLVLSense and b1 < 10 ' # Do 10 times

goto Main


SwitchGroup2: ' # Favors Oscillating Q2
do
pulsout 6,500 ' # send 1/2 second pulses out of pin 12
inc b1 ' # let's increment the counter
if pin1 = 1 then exit ' # error check
loop while ChargeSense > BattLVLSense and b1 < 10 ' #Do 10 times

goto Main

SwitchGroup3: ' # We are holding our own, Let's get some work done
do
pulsout 4,500 ' # send 1/2 second pulses out of pin 10
pulsout 6,500 ' # send 1/2 second pulses out of pin 12
inc b1 ' # let's increment the counter
if pin1 = 1 then exit ' # error check
loop while ChargeSense = BattLVLSense and b1 < 10 ' # Do 10 times

goto Main.

Description of the code functionality;

Variables are set up to receive values from various pin readings through the READADC command. These Variables are;

BattLVLSense - Holds the value of the voltage from Batts 1 and 3.
ChargeSense - Holds the value of the voltage from Batts 2 and 4.
TotalCompare- Holds the value of Batts 1 and 3 + Batts 2 and 4.

Once all Batts are connected, power is applied (12V from Batt1) to R1 which supplies power to Z1. Z1 is a 5.1V zener diode that maintains the voltage to operate the PICAXE-18X chip. Cap C1 filters any noise.

Three (3 subroutines) SwitchGroups are setup to do the “pulsing” of Q1 and / or Q2.

The process starts by the PICAXE-18X(U1) reading and storing information presented to pins 1 and 18 from the LM324 Op amp (U2). U2 senses the voltage at the points shown on the schematic and presents it to U1 as a voltage range from 0 to 5vdc. The U1 in turn, converts this to a value from 0 to 255. U2 is setup through the voltage divider resistors to output 2.5 volts on its output when the voltages are 18vdc between Batts 1 and 3 as well as 14vdc for Batts 2 and 4.

We know that if we place different loads on the TS, this will affect the “Charge Process” of Batts 2 and 4 and the use of capacity from 1 and 3 or vise versa. The algorithm in U1 is such that it can compensate by utilizing any of the 3 SwitchGroup sub routines. (Illustrated below is just one of the scenarios).

Let’s understand that if Batts 1 and 3 fall below 18vdc collectively, our reading of pin 1 of U1 will yield a value of something less than 127. This value will be stored into the BattLVLSense variable and the code algorithm determines that SwitchGroup2: is needed. SwitchGroup2: favors the pulsing of Q2 which places Batts 2 and 4 in series for a .5 second “Pulse” consecutive for 10 times. The algorithm jumps out of this subroutine and takes another reading at the U1 pins 1 and 18. This is a “Health” check of Batts 1 and 3 as well as 2 and 4.

This scenario is repeated as long as U1 has power, but U1 also has the intelligence to understand other levels and adjust (by selecting the right SwitchGroup) to maintain all for Batts to the desired levels.

Another part of the U1 algorithm is to determine if all of the Batts are healthy enough to place a load on them. Pin 9 output signal is turned high (5V) wich can drive a N FET that in turn can drive a relay coil to connect a load. This happens when the Variable “TotalCompare” has a value greater than 255 (Batt 1 and 3 = 19V or, 137 as U1 sees them) plus (Batts 2 and 4 = 15V or, 137 as U1 sees them). 137 + 137 = 274 so the algorithm turns pin 9 on U1 high and also through SwitchGroup3: will oscillate Q1 and Q2 to maintain the proper Batt levels.

Caveats:
Different load types (i.e. Inductive, Reactive, Resistive) will cause batteries to charge or discharge at different rates. The algorithm assumes the battery levels to be as mentioned above acceptable to maintain the batteries capacity. Adjustments can be made by changing the parameters both in the “pulse” duration within the SwitchGroups as well as the measurement level (in this case 127 for the desired level) for the batteries.

Please use at your own risk!!!!!!!


Bit's

[John_K]

Hi Murlin,

I'm interested in the mechanical switch, still building the bigger one.

Regards
Dave

I'm with Dave, just putting together the relay timer.

I haven't graduated from analog uni yet.

John K.

[Helijason]

@ bits

Good work!

I'm curious what effect you see when your in single pulse mode. It looks like the code will do a 1/2 second on pulse (pulse should be a little longer) until goes back to the top of the loop where it will toggle the output pin continuosly until you are out of the loop. It may be desired to change the subroutine to turn the pin on and pause for 1/2 second and loop again until you're count is complete. (I hate being an arm chair participant ) This would be closer to the scaller charger operation, if that is what you were going for. Also your do while loop appears to only count. The voltage check should still be the same when you get here, right?

My prefference for error checking is to turn off the output before turning on the oppossing switch side.

What kind of results have you had for different loads? You mentioned different discharge/charge rates, do most cases maintain battery voltage or slowly discharge?

Jason

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

@ bits

Good work!

I'm curious what effect you see when your in single pulse mode. It looks like the code will do a 1/2 second on pulse (pulse should be a little longer) until goes back to the top of the loop where it will toggle the output pin continuosly until you are out of the loop. It may be desired to change the subroutine to turn the pin on and pause for 1/2 second and loop again until you're count is complete. Also your do while loop appears to only count. The voltage check should still be the same when you get here, right?

My prefference for error checking is to turn off the output before turning on the oppossing switch side.

What kind of results have you had for different loads? You mentioned different discharge/charge rates, do most cases maintain battery voltage or slowly discharge?

Jason

Jason thanks. The pulse length (duration) is dependent on the battries health, load type, etc., therefore, this is totally a "tunable" parameter and should be adjusted (tuned for the setup) for the different configurations. (I have seen so many).

As for the count, again with the ability to change "how many times" the batteries are "pulsed" before we do a "Health check" of the batteries when a load is applied (Loads necessarly may not be constant), this parameter needs to be tuned for the type of load usage.

I should have oscope traces by this weekend.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

[John_Bedini]

Tesla Switch

Steve,
If you look at this circuit it was taken from the window motor. but when you really look at it, it's close to the scalar charger but who knows exactly what Ron was trying to do with it. He never said much about it.
So this hard to answer your question on this one. Ron had some strange names for things, like Par Switch which I think he is talking about a parallel switch. This is what I mean in the drawing below.
JB

Mr. John,

Re Opto:
You mean a "bipolar Schmitt" trigger with both bases short for input and both emitters short for output?

I think they call it "complementary emitter follower"?
Provides "gain in current" yet no "gain in voltage"?

Isn't the "driver circuit" comprising two 2N2222 in the Brandt's scalar charger a Schimitt trigger (not bipolar, but a 2xNPN = unipolar)?

this is what i refer to: (from Wikipedia)


I had it running but didn't know back then it's a Schmitt?
Q: And wouldn't it be by far better to "Schmitt up" the driver stage adjacent to the power stage? All the "clean mean" switching speed goes lost over the opto (usually a slower BJT)?

Stevan C.

[John_Bedini]

Tesla Switch

Steve, again you can only be the judge of this as I have given my recommendations on why I do what I do. I'm just saying that you must look at what the parts can handle, then I choose what works the best for me after testing under circuit load. charts below for the three devices.
JB

Mr. John,
isn't the MJL4281 a bit better than the MJL21194? It seems to be a "match" but has 35MHz of speed and 90V more breakdown, while managing ~140V@1A for ~1sec?

And both look like the (better) successors of MJ15024 to me?

Any comment?

[John_Bedini]

Tesla Switch

Leroy,
You did not offended me on anything.
JB

Riddles:

I think MY problem is that you speak sometimes of different things, and I don't always know what you are speaking of in reference too. I take all of your input, which is excellent, and seek that reference. We are talking about at least two devices on this thread, but when the reference is missing, so I do not know if you are speaking in general terms, in reference to the TS, or Scalar Charger, or what. So, I have to guess and try it with a particular setup.

It is a personal problem on this side. I once sat through every class (9 different hours) for a college calculus II course, just so I could find a "teacher" I could understand. I could only understand properly the way the last one taught and I aced every test. If I had stayed in the original class, I would have failed, because I could not understand the WAY he taught. Everyone learns in a different way, some by pictures, some by hearing, all by doing. At least most of the people here are doing, and that is a learning process in itself.

I hope I did not offend, that was not intended. Anything written is easy to misinterpret, as there is little inflection in writing. No offense intended.

I must have been in rare form...saying all kinds of stupid things...got hammered by Matt and offended JB. Wish I could be testing instead of posting only.

Leroy