Use for the Tesla Switch

[John_K]

@Vissie,

I just don't get the same results I do with flooded LABs as I do with gel-cells.

With flooded LABs I can get all batteries to gain charge, albeit very slowly. Like 0.01V per battery per hour. I'm using Trojan SCS225 130Ah marine deep cycles.

The gel-cells don't seem to take the charge, but lose charge with the same settings.

@All, the best results I have had is with this code. Bear in mind I'm using a PICAXE 40X2, which runs at 8Mhz, so you have to halve the timing. E.G. "pause 1000" = 0.5 seconds. Also the 40X2 uses channels, I'm using channel "B".

main:

high B.0, B.2
pause 200
low B.0, B.2
pause 800
high B.1, B.3
pause 200
low B.1, B.3
pause 800
goto main

B.0 - Q1
B.2 - Q10
B.1 - Q2
B.3 - Q9

John K.

[John_K]

@Vissie,

I just don't get the same results I do with flooded LABs as I do with gel-cells.

With flooded LABs I can get all batteries to gain charge, albeit very slowly. Like 0.01V per battery per hour. I'm using Trojan SCS225 130Ah marine deep cycles.

The gel-cells don't seem to take the charge, but lose charge with the same settings.

@All, the best results I have had is with this code. Bear in mind I'm using a PICAXE 40X2, which runs at 8Mhz, so you have to halve the timing. E.G. "pause 1000" = 0.5 seconds. Also the 40X2 uses channels, I'm using channel "B".

main:

high B.0, B.2
pause 200
low B.0, B.2
pause 800
high B.1, B.3
pause 200
low B.1, B.3
pause 800
goto main

B.0 - Q1
B.2 - Q10
B.1 - Q2
B.3 - Q9

John K.

Sorry, forgot to add - I had better results with a smaller load (2 x #47 bulbs in series for each load). I'm trying the superbright LEDs with a 330R in series to see what happens.

I believe the system works better if you use the cap pulser analogy. A short sharp pulse, with some dead time in between. I seem to have better luck with a 20% d/c, as per code above...

John K.

[nvisser]

Hey John K and all the other guys with picaxe chips.
Will it be easy to program your code for the full switch as follows and see what happens.
high B.0, B2. for 50 msec
low B.0, B.2 for 500msec
Do this for 30min
Then
high B.1, B. for 50 msec
low B.1, B.3 off for 500msec
Also for 30 min
Repeat this for a few hours and see if you gain something.
I am still waiting for my picaxe, but got this type of pulsing this morning when something went wrong with my decade counter. It gives a few 50msec pulses and then paused for a sec. Same on the other side but it happens totally random.
So I thought if we only charge one side with short pulses for say half an hour and then the other side we could maybe get the batteries to charge as that is what happened with the first test John gave us to do and we all got the batteries to gain charge with swopping.
As we dont want to draw any current and do any work with the switch at this stage why not try it
O by the way. Remove the lamps and replace them with jumpers(short)
Ps: You could even make that on pulse shorter to say 10msec or less and see if it charge the other side.That story of see how much potencial you can switch before the current starts to flow.

[Matthew Jones]

I was kinda wondering about 1 thing in the battery. I am going to have to figure out how to test it though.
Batteries seem to charge to point. This would indicate some form of blockage at a certain level.
Maybe the thing to look at is the impedance in the battery. At some point during charging (On one pulse in a given direction) the battery will be slower to gain. As the charge hits the battery it may have low impedance then the impedance rises to an eventual halt.
So the solution may be some logarithmic form of pulsing. The pause times might need to be longer as the rise in the battery happens, or shorter. The pulse might need to be longer or shorter also.

Has anybody tried to look at this?

Matt

[Inquorate]

I was kinda wondering about 1 thing in the battery. I am going to have to figure out how to test it though.
Batteries seem to charge to point. This would indicate some form of blockage at a certain level.
Maybe the thing to look at is the impedance in the battery. At some point during charging (On one pulse in a given direction) the battery will be slower to gain. As the charge hits the battery it may have low impedance then the impedance rises to an eventual halt.
So the solution may be some logarithmic form of pulsing. The pause times might need to be longer as the rise in the battery happens, or shorter. The pulse might need to be longer or shorter also.

Has anybody tried to look at this?

Matt

I don't think anyone has worked out how to test changing battery Impedence, and do hope you figure a way to test it..

Hope someone comes up with a test

As for voltage rise time on the charge battery in the 3 bat ts, I might be able to investigate that a bit tomorrow.

[nvisser]

I dont know much about batteries but I do know that a bad battery has got a very high impedance and as it recovers with a radiant charger the impedance comes down. That is why if you put a charger over the bad battery you will see it sits on 14v. The same as the charger. On a good flat battery with a low impedance the voltage under charge will show say 11v and will pick up as the battery charge up
A good battery has got a very low internal impedane and JB gave us the figure earlier on this thread.
Jb also said to pulse batteries between 0.5 and 1 sec. It depends on the battery.

[Matthew Jones]

@Inquorate
Ya it doesn't seem to me that there would be much else wrong. Unless its like a monopole. It takes time for it to work.

I have been reading patents and articles. This one seem to be relatively easy.
I'll have to read it 10 time again before I understand it but...
Method of calculating rechargeable ... - Google Patent Search

I would figure if the batteries impedance climbs for some reason the capacity of a charge would be lowered. So this sensor and algorithm might give us a clue.

@nvisser
Ya thats kinda my point. If the battery feels Full, then it won't take a charge. The specific set of pulses might need to be changed to make the battery Hungry again. Or maybe each pulse may cause a reaction and that reaction need to be followed through before another pulse or discharge is delivered.

If for some reason thats not the result, well we just figured out how to turn our microprocessors into generic BK meters. LOL.

I don't know if it worth the trouble, but it would definitely give insight.

Matt

[ldissing]

...I thing it was mentioned to use between full(50%) and 40%. I cannot remember now.

I believe it was between 10% and 50%.

Leroy

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

Hey John K and all the other guys with picaxe chips.
Will it be easy to program your code for the full switch as follows and see what happens.
high B.0, B2. for 50 msec
low B.0, B.2 for 500msec
Do this for 30min
Then
high B.1, B. for 50 msec
low B.1, B.3 off for 500msec
Also for 30 min
Repeat this for a few hours and see if you gain something.
I am still waiting for my picaxe, but got this type of pulsing this morning when something went wrong with my decade counter. It gives a few 50msec pulses and then paused for a sec. Same on the other side but it happens totally random.
So I thought if we only charge one side with short pulses for say half an hour and then the other side we could maybe get the batteries to charge as that is what happened with the first test John gave us to do and we all got the batteries to gain charge with swopping.
As we dont want to draw any current and do any work with the switch at this stage why not try it
O by the way. Remove the lamps and replace them with jumpers(short)
Ps: You could even make that on pulse shorter to say 10msec or less and see if it charge the other side.That story of see how much potencial you can switch before the current starts to flow.

I have tried something simular, but now have modified the code to try your above theroy Vissie;

SwitchGroup3:
do

high 4, 5
pause 50
low 4, 5
pause 500
inc b1
loop while b1 < 55
pause 65000
pause 65000
pause 65000
pause 65000
pause 65000

do

high 6, 7
pause 50
low 6, 7
pause 500
inc b1
loop while b1 < 110
pause 65000
pause 65000
pause 65000
pause 65000
pause 65000
goto Main

I'll hook it up and see what happens.

Bit's

[nvisser]

If the battery feels Full, then it won't take a charge.
I think the only way to overcome that problem is to hit it with high voltage spikes

[nvisser]

[QUOTE=Bit's-n-Bytes;84211]I have tried something simular, but now have modified the code to try your above theroy Vissie;

Cool man.

[nvisser]

I believe it was between 10% and 50%.

Leroy

Thanks Leroy
That would give us a 50msec pulse every 500msec

[Jbignes5]

I know this isn't my field but.

Mathew since you helped me work on a Tesla switch I thought I would chime in and try to point you in a different direction.

If the impedance of the battery is variable then you need to have a feed back control that can monitor the battery impedance and adjust the pulses automatically. Finding this feedback and sensing the change and applying the modification to the pulse in real time is definetly possible using the advanced pic controllers or even the hex controller. Since they can be programmed to react in a given way for each change it might help you to automatically adjust the pulse train to the given feedback from the batteries. But unless someone figures out what JB knows or has observed the adjustments are unclear.
How would one sense the impedance of a battery on the fly? Could it be that looking at the back pulse from the battery (the response to pulsing the battery) and monitoring that to make adjustments to the next pulse to facilitate maximum charge potential is the key?
We know JB was looking at the response of the battery to the pulses.
Could it be that it is as easy as puting it on autopilot? If one does make it auto adjust could it run away? For safety concerns a built in limiter could be a must.
Why is it that batteries that are run on these switches change and gain capacity at much higher then stated specs? How much capacity in percentage can be gained in a battery above specs on a Tesla Switch as apossed to a conventionaly charged battery.

Just some questions for you guys. Some of which I have my theories about. But I am interested to hear what you guys think.

[ldissing]

Mathew since you helped me work on a Tesla switch I thought I would chime in and try to point you in a different direction.

If the impedance of the battery is variable then you need to have a feed back control that can monitor the battery impedance and adjust the pulses automatically. Finding this feedback and sensing the change and applying the modification to the pulse in real time is definetly possible using the advanced pic controllers or even the hex controller. Since they can be programmed to react in a given way for each change it might help you to automatically adjust the pulse train to the given feedback from the batteries. But unless someone figures out what JB knows or has observed the adjustments are unclear.
How would one sense the impedance of a battery on the fly? Could it be that looking at the back pulse from the battery (the response to pulsing the battery) and monitoring that to make adjustments to the next pulse to facilitate maximum charge potential is the key?
We know JB was looking at the response of the battery to the pulses.
Could it be that it is as easy as puting it on autopilot? If one does make it auto adjust could it run away? For safety concerns a built in limiter could be a must.
Why is it that batteries that are run on these switches change and gain capacity at much higher then stated specs? How much capacity in percentage can be gained in a battery above specs on a Tesla Switch as apossed to a conventionaly charged battery.

Just some questions for you guys. Some of which I have my theories about. But I am interested to hear what you guys think.

Stevan C., can chime in here, but when you send a HV pulse into a battery, it will do something. That "something" is usually show a bump in potential for a short bit while it "soaks" up that HV pulse. The higher that "bump" is, the higher the internal impedance, and the lower it is, then the lower the impedance. This is not the same thing as finding the internal impedance exactly, but a bigger resistance (i.e. internal impedance) will yield a higher potential bump in the battery, and then it will come to a rest, hopefully higher than before after enough of these HV pulses. As the impedance is lowered by these HV pulses, these bumps get smaller and smaller until they is only a few milli-volt rise in the "bump". This is my observation at least.

On a really bad battery, I've seen the voltage rise on the battery measured with just a volt meter to approach 50 or 100V. "Good" batteries do not exhibit this behavior.

When I'm talking about HV pulses, it is like 100-300V for a super short time, just enough time for the capacitor to discharge into the battery.

Leroy

P.S. Don't know if it is possible to detect this, but it should be. I do not believe that a PIC controller can detect this, as it may take too much time for a "capture" and decode of the ADC. A comparator could do it really fast though.

[Matthew Jones]

Jbignes5 @ Jib I do believe that something could be built along those lines.

But first you gotta kinda have an idea of the reaction. If the batteries charging proccess stall whats next.

I set up a test that I have been running on six batterries in series. All averaging out at 12.20 +- volt
I took a standard power supply and put a relay on the HOT end. I set it up to pulse the charge into the batteries.
So the result were as follows.

They quikly showed charge from 12.20 to 12.40 within an hour. I was pulsing 500ms on 500ms off.
Then it took them 30 minutes to go from 12.40 to 12.43 were they stalled. For 15 minutes the charge shown on the battery did not go higher than that.
So I Increased the time. 1 second on 1 second off. They rose to 12.66 and stalled again.
So I increased the time again. 1.5 seconds.
Funny thing was they went up to 12.67 and stalled again. So I went to 2 seconds, they went to 12.68 and would not go. I went to 3 seconds, they did not go.
So I went down. 250 millisecond pulses. They are now while I type showing 12.75 and going.

This kind of give me the feeling that as the voltage of the battery rises less amperage is need to charge them. Quiker pulses not longer.

Anyway I'll report when they hit 13.5 tonight and we'll see that pattern remains constant.

Next I'll test the same charging pattern except with a discharge of equal proportion, and see what gain I can get from that.

Cheers
Matt