Transformer Core of Capacitor plates

[madhatter]

Hello Mad Hatter
I have been trying to replicate your results with the copper pipes.
I have the copper pipes wound and I have a heavy duty industrial full wave rectifier connected.
When I connect a 440 volt capacitor acros the DC terminals I can only get about one tenth of the input voltage on the capacitor.
So @ 48 volts input only 4.5 to 5 volts on the cap.
This is only with the inner windings connected.
This is only first try so I will use the other wire of the bi fillar and try the outer windings etc etc.
One question though. Is the earth in your shematic connected to an actual ground earth or just to the other side of the cap?
Anyway thats where I am at so far.
LV

The ground is earth ground.

[madhatter]

Update
with an earth connected to either terminal of the 5 mF capacitor the voltage slowly climbs to 145volts with the supply at 48 volts.
I am not sure if it is charging somehow back from the main supply but there is No direct connection so I am still thinking.
The voltage rise is quite slow maybe 30 seconds to reach 145 volts.
I cant help wondering what would happen with my 15000 volt NST driving it.
Madhatter did you see the voltages reported in your post immediately or slow climb???
LV

Voltage rate is related to the current, in the case of low AC voltages it's not very much in the order of micro amps. The caps charge slowly, the very large caps can take a couple minutes but will reach very high potentials.

My signal generator is no longer operating with adjustable frequency, need to fix that. Then I'll pulse the plates with a 20kV ignition coil.

[gsmsslsb]

Ran a few tests this morning.
inn refers to the windiing on the inner pipe
out refers to the winding on the outer pipe
separately means the outer pipe winding connected to one ac terminal of the bridge and the inner pipe winding connected to the other ac terminal of the bridge.
combined means both inner and outer pipe windings connected to the same ac terminal of the bridge rectifier.
earth on red/black is means the earth wire connected to the pos or neg terminal of the bridge rectifier capacitor.
The voltage in is AC volts from the variac.
volts out is the DC voltage across the capacitor on the output of the bridge rectifier.

It seems like after a certain voltage the output doesnt increase I may try winding more length on inner then on outer

By the way how do I show the results in this window without having them as an attachment

[gsmsslsb]

Strange strange strange

Ok I have been trying some more stuff withthe dual tube design from madhatter.
After I finished the tests above I wondered wether it is the number of windings so I tripled the windings on the inner pipe and tried again.
Started with 17 volts supply output 320 volts in a 5 uF capacitor in one minute.
Increse input to 50 volts output falls to 283 volt
decrease input to 17 output rises to 320 volt
decrease input to 10 volt output rises to 340 volt
decrease input to 7 volt output rises to 360 volt.
I dont know whats happening with this
Maybe if I turn it right off I will get thousands of volts out right hahaha

According to my calcs the best trial was 360 volt into a 5uF capacitor in one minute which
= 1.8 millicoulombs in one minute =.03millicoulombs/sec = .03mA = 30uA = very very very tiny

I also tried adding a third pipe inside the other two and connecting in various configurations but that did not seem to head anywhere.
Also connected the inside pipe and outside pipe to the supply and tried the middle pipe as a output like a single turn coil but didnt seem to head anywhere either.
not sure where to head from here? maybe start playing with frequency

Madhatter any progress with the calcs?

[madhatter]

Ok I have been trying some more stuff withthe dual tube design from madhatter.
After I finished the tests above I wondered wether it is the number of windings so I tripled the windings on the inner pipe and tried again.
Started with 17 volts supply output 320 volts in a 5 uF capacitor in one minute.
Increse input to 50 volts output falls to 283 volt
decrease input to 17 output rises to 320 volt
decrease input to 10 volt output rises to 340 volt
decrease input to 7 volt output rises to 360 volt.
I dont know whats happening with this
Maybe if I turn it right off I will get thousands of volts out right hahaha

According to my calcs the best trial was 360 volt into a 5uF capacitor in one minute which
= 1.8 millicoulombs in one minute =.03millicoulombs/sec = .03mA = 30uA = very very very tiny

I also tried adding a third pipe inside the other two and connecting in various configurations but that did not seem to head anywhere.
Also connected the inside pipe and outside pipe to the supply and tried the middle pipe as a output like a single turn coil but didnt seem to head anywhere either.
not sure where to head from here? maybe start playing with frequency

Madhatter any progress with the calcs?

still working on it, my function generator is not working at the moment, and I'm putting together a pulse circuit to drive a HV transformer.

Seeing as how your setup has the windings perpendicular to the supposed B field the calcs should be easier. does your variac keep the current constant? you may have increased current as the voltage drops.

late last night I was fiddeling around and pulsing one of the copper plates with 20kv to see if the coil would pick up anything, it does of course however my meters don't read higher than 600v on one and the other is 1000v, need to make a couple HV probes as well. I was tapping by hand the signal to the HV coil, so it's not that useful but it did show promise.

I'll find my notes on cap charging with this and the resistor values, etc.

Ultimately this arrangement is better suited to HV pulse than AC. Getting this setup in a vacuum will be more exciting too.

[gsmsslsb]

My variac does not keep the current constant but the variac is only charging the capacitor formed by the two pipes so @50 hz the amperage should be just the standard cap charging curve.

[gsmsslsb]

I am going to try pulsing with an ignition coil and also maybe spark driven pulsing from a Neon Sign tansformer.
But before I do I want to try some other coil configurations.
Madhatter or anyone can you look at the attached and tell me what you think the best config for winding a coil would be for this.
I am having trouble visualising the magnetic fields around some of these.
So far I have only done the BI FI coil.
I am thinking maybe the Bi Fi toroid as maybe it will have the least induction and outside effects anyway let me know what you think.

[gsmsslsb]

OK something happened.
I am not sure what but it involved as someone here put it
The instantaneous molecular reconstruction of some wiring.
It was not a short as the circuit breaker did not blow and I have shorted often enough to know that when I do the breaker will blow.
I am still shaking a little and I ave left it on the bench.
I will go back later and see what I can do.
More later when I calm down ( stop shaking)

[madhatter]

it's something isn't it caught me waaay off guard too. do share as soon as you can the parameters involved.

The bi-fi toroid is your best bet, although I suspect that your above experience has something to do with that wiring?

Do to the strange nature of this and the propensity to generate what I can only assume is massive amount of current it's prone to be very dangerous.

[gsmsslsb]

it's something isn't it caught me waaay off guard too. do share as soon as you can the parameters involved.

The bi-fi toroid is your best bet, although I suspect that your above experience has something to do with that wiring?

Do to the strange nature of this and the propensity to generate what I can only assume is massive amount of current it's prone to be very dangerous.

Sorry false alarm I have sorted out both the frying and the Voltage output rise when I turn the input down.
Its the variac.
Because its an auto transformer and the supply is 230 volt then when I draw 10 volt off it the difference is to earth so I have 10 volt drawn off it then I have 220 to earth.
And frying the wire etc was this 220 arcing through the insulation to the windings and going to earth.
So I am thinking what may be happening is we are charging the output capacitor with capacitance to the plates.
e.g. the coil windings become one plate of a capacitor inside the other capacitor and the bridge rectifier and smoothing cap are an avramenko plug.

Thats what I think at present.
This does not explain it completely though because it doesnt charge when I remove the inner pipe.( decouple the capacitor)
I will have to think some more and try to nut it out
LV

[madhatter]

Sorry false alarm I have sorted out both the frying and the Voltage output rise when I turn the input down.
Its the variac.
Because its an auto transformer and the supply is 230 volt then when I draw 10 volt off it the difference is to earth so I have 10 volt drawn off it then I have 220 to earth.
And frying the wire etc was this 220 arcing through the insulation to the windings and going to earth.
So I am thinking what may be happening is we are charging the output capacitor with capacitance to the plates.
e.g. the coil windings become one plate of a capacitor inside the other capacitor and the bridge rectifier and smoothing cap are an avramenko plug.

Thats what I think at present.
This does not explain it completely though because it doesnt charge when I remove the inner pipe.( decouple the capacitor)
I will have to think some more and try to nut it out
LV

A variac varies the winding ratio by having a moving secondary. the output is based on the location of the 'tap' point on the secondary side.

initially I did consider the lumped model of the coil being a 'capacitive' plate, however the results and the math don't bear that out.

as to the wire vaporize, are you sure it was a short that started between the windings and plate? I had thought so too, but further analyses the wire lead before the windings went poof and the current rush followed up to the pipe, much like a shockwave.

[gsmsslsb]

A variac varies the winding ratio by having a moving secondary. the output is based on the location of the 'tap' point on the secondary side.

initially I did consider the lumped model of the coil being a 'capacitive' plate, however the results and the math don't bear that out.

as to the wire vaporize, are you sure it was a short that started between the windings and plate? I had thought so too, but further analyses the wire lead before the windings went poof and the current rush followed up to the pipe, much like a shockwave.

I am not sure now that you mention it I will have to look into it more tommorow

[broli]

Any new revelations from this setup? It seemed to show some interesting things and then the thread kind of died.

[madhatter]

had to focus on my business for the moment, looks like I'll have some spare time soon.

[madhatter]

quick circuit pic, info to follow


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The above circuit was based on idea about grid control and tubes. this does indeed work. In the RCA 1940 vacuum tube design book, one chapter is a lecture on space current charge. the grid can be considered a equipotential plane if the grid wire spacing is closer then the gap between the cathode and anode. that's very much the case here.

what interesting is that this is a room temp non thermionic electron emissions. what is being controlled? the magnetic displacement field?

The rectifier bridged is not needed as the coils will also vary the AC voltage on the center disk.

I found an interesting site:
index
not the most easy site to navigate but he's also questioning the displacement theory. from what I can make of his theory it seems very similar to what Eric is talking about.