Transformer Core of Capacitor plates

[madhatter]

This is a spin off from the Dollard thread. In it there was discussion of mutual inductance and complex quantities. long story short it had me think of something and I gave a quick try.

A transformer core made up of capacitor plates. It's a very strange thing. I'll state that there is a lot more to it than just randomly putting the parts together, there are some very critical and complex ratios between capacitance and inductance in this particular geometry.

RF frequencies have odd effects differing from DC voltage and low frequencies as well. DC Pulsed is most effective.

I made a couple of these cores, one used some magnets I had laying around and the other was made from a ferrite bead cut in half like a bagel and then two copper plates affixed with an oil soaked wax paper dielectric, this one is only 3/4" dia yet ended up with a 10000uF capacitance

There is no difference between the magnets and ferrite core, prefer the ferrite core so that copper plate may be used.

Thought I'd share and see if anyone else has tried such a thing.

I'll be working a bit more with this and seeing if I can generate some equations to design an efficient core.

[OrionLightShip]

this one is only 3/4" dia yet ended up with a 10000uF capacitance

Can you measure that again please....

[madhatter]

Can you measure that again please....

Here's the thing, both my meters tap out at 10000uF and this exceeds it. All it is, is two copper disks 0.75" dia with a 0.25" hole in the center, ground and polished flat, vellum paper soaked in oil as the dielectric.

[Farmhand]

Hi madhatter, Tesla did a similar thing, or more or less the same thing, explained in this book,
http://ia700302.us.archive.org/16/it...00martiala.pdf

Chapter XXI page 101, MOTOR WITH A CONDENSER IN THE ARMATURE CIRCUIT

It is preferable on account of the undesirability of using sliding
contacts of any kind, to associate the condenser with the armature
directly, or make it a part of the armature. In some cases Mr.
Tesla builds up the armature of annular plates K K, held by bolts
L between heads M, which are secured to the driving shaft, and
in the hollow space thus formed he places a condenser F, generally
by winding the two insulated plates spirally around the
shaft. In other cases he utilizes the plates of the core itself
as the plates of the condenser. For example, in Figs. 88 and 89,

Maybe his findings can help.

[madhatter]

Thanks Farmhand, I've got that book and will be going thru it with a hard look at that.

I also need to re-do the arrangement. instead of the plates being separated by the dielectric alone there will need to be a hi-MU material between it as well. the magnetic field is between the plates due to the charge movement.

I'll make another core that's multiple layers and use some sheet MU metal that's sandwiched between the dielectric.

[OrionLightShip]

I'll make another core that's multiple layers and use some sheet MU metal that's sandwiched between the dielectric.

mu metal will be interesting!

Sorry but the figure of 10,000 uF for a small washer cap is stuck in my head so I had to pull out the formula and see.


Area of a washer is Pi(R sq – r sq) or Pi( .75 sq - .25 sq) which yields 1.57 sq in.


Using an online capacitance calculator with the dielectric constant for mineral oil and plate separation of .001 in. I get a capacitance value of 787 picoFarads which is in line with what I would have guessed.


Either I missed something or there is a problem with the measurement you made earlier. Just trying to be helpful. I am very interested in what you are doing.

[madhatter]

Well that little test one didn't last long, arc'd over and fried at about 40 volts. It's was very odd though, couldn't get a value on it

finished the stacked unit tonight, 3 copper plates, 6 mu-metal sheets and 6 oil soaked vellum paper dielectric sheets.

It's a 2"x2" square, with a 0.6 x 0.6 center opening. wound 22ga mag wire on one leg with about 20 turns. pulsing the capacitor core with 1v dc will light a 5v 45ma LED. I can also light the LED with an RF signal of 600Hz and .75v on the plates.

need to run some more tests, also need to build a pulse circuit for the generator.

[madhatter]

Ohh the capacitance on this new core is ~3.0nF more than likely due to the mu-metal material separating the plates.

There is also the thought of looping one lead of the winding back to one of the plates and seeing if it will resonate on itself.

[ewizard]

Very nice Out-of-the-Box thinking I like it. Maybe Transpacitor? or Capaciformer? If you look at the basic electronic components there just aren't that many so to have a completely new one could potentially really open a lot of new doors. While it may still have values like inductance, capacitance, resistance and so on who knows what effects might be found with a new integrated combo.

[madhatter]

It's different that's for sure, not sure if it's a new idea though. Went thru Tesla's notes and his use of the capacitor in the core was different in that the core was axial to windings.

The magnetic field in a transformer core is bound geometrically to the core, the magnetic field in between capacitor plates runs circular. The question then is, would the capacitors field have mutual inductance to the windings when paired to a core? Is there and amperage draw in the capacitor circuit when putting a load on the windings?

[madhatter]

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new core.

This is one interesting and fun little project. The peak voltage occurs when the frequency on the plate matches the length of wire wound on the core. an increase occurs when the start lead is connected the center capacitor plate. The signal is fed to the outer plates, the entire circuit is one wire.

feeding a 0.6V signal at 1.48Mhz 0dBm the winding will output 0.917Vdc

waiting for the oscilloscope to arrive to do more tests.

[madhatter]

So far I've been able to determine that the signal frequency to the plates will induce resonance in the windings when the fq matches the winding resonance based on length.

I can not get an amp draw reading on the plate signal source, still not sure if there is a current draw off the plates when inducing the windings.

It seems like the same effect could be achieved if the inter-turn capacitance was induced independently of self inductance. there is a magnification of voltage due to increased windings, what I'm not clear on is current. The phase seems matched as well, the oscilloscope will help with that when it shows up, hopefully soon. the RF volt meter reads fine for now.

going to try a few different type of windings and see what the results are. have a couple ideas. The math is starting to form in my head based on my notes so far.

Such a simple arrangement, yet it's highly complex in how it operates. very very sensitive to capacitance and electrostatic fields. Also seems to react to or pick up the CD -capacitive discharge- of ignition systems in passing vehicles.

By placing my hand near the transformer the RF voltage will increase about 300mV.


Has me also wondering what type of effect could be achieved with a tube arrangement. That of course goes into my original research work, a modified multipactor electron sink/source. FTL with ES wave signaling, this may be the parametric layout needed to signal from ES to EM without losses.

I hope Eric follows this, as there are many similarities to his work.

[OrionLightShip]

That of course goes into my original research work, a modified multipactor electron sink/source.

As you know, I have done a lot of research on multipactors as well. It is my favorite thing. I have recently come up with something I call Farnsworth Unleashed. I would like to throw some ideas your way and get your opinion in private message or email. Interested?

my email is infra.rods@gmail.com

Orion

[madhatter]

I've got lots of notes to compile into a spreadsheet and start extracting useable calculations.

I'll fill in here summation as I go along and will hopefully have more detail later tonight.

noticed an interesting thing, its' not winding layers or number of turns that gives the voltage but surface area of the windings in the first layer, subsequent layers do not increase the output. very strange.

the last winding will be a bifilar type as it'll take the most effort.

HF source voltage to the plate has more current output on the windings where as a LF source has higher voltage.

have not tried spaced windings yet to test inter-turn capacitance.

[madhatter]

some very interesting neon bulb data to compile. will post a bit later..

going to feed it with a pulse coil next...