Transformer Core of Capacitor plates

[madhatter]

OK I get it but I have a couple of questions.
1) in the above is the 60vdc and 22vac is the 22vac before the rectifier and the 60vdc after the rectifier???
2)What is the spark gap in the circuit diagram between the outer pipe and the rectifier.

All voltage measurements are made after the rectifier bridge, the one thing that can't be done with out a capacitor charging at the voltage out points is filter out the AC.
If I measure the AC voltage off the wire with no rectifier and only measure the inner wire with 120VAC on the inner cylinder the wire will measure 80VAC.

There is no spark gap, that was just a diagrammatic for where the wire vaporized.

I really want to have some predictable equations for what is happening here. lots of notes to sift thru and input then it's on to the differential calculus and clifford algebra.

[madhatter]

Ok,somewhat of an update on this undertaking.

I've been thru all the current and recognized equations dealing with 'displacement current theory' and not a single one can predict the outcome being measured here.

I'll spare the group the differential calculus and algebra on that.

I've gone back to the beginning so to speak, fundamental SI units and charge and will try and build a set of equations to predict the outcome based on observed measurements. One problem is the conservation of charge and the B field, it doesn't fit.

This may fall into quiet oblivion, not very exciting and not obviously practical at the moment, but it does have some very strong implications on charge and quantization.

I encourage others to play with this and see what results they get. I do not at the moment have any way to pulse plates with a DC potential. If anyone does and is willing to do this and record the results I'll gladly send them some copper plates to work with, the local metal supply house I purchase from for my other work has piles of remnants I get for cheap. thickness ranges from .022~.05 and 6"x6" on avg.

The only reason I'm stubbornly stuck on this discovery is that it is directly applicable to electrostatics and plasma physics both of which are tied into the bigger project of taking Farnsworths research further.

[jake]

Ok,somewhat of an update on this undertaking.

I've been thru all the current and recognized equations dealing with 'displacement current theory' and not a single one can predict the outcome being measured here.

I'll spare the group the differential calculus and algebra on that.

I've gone back to the beginning so to speak, fundamental SI units and charge and will try and build a set of equations to predict the outcome based on observed measurements. One problem is the conservation of charge and the B field, it doesn't fit.

This may fall into quiet oblivion, not very exciting and not obviously practical at the moment, but it does have some very strong implications on charge and quantization.

I encourage others to play with this and see what results they get. I do not at the moment have any way to pulse plates with a DC potential. If anyone does and is willing to do this and record the results I'll gladly send them some copper plates to work with, the local metal supply house I purchase from for my other work has piles of remnants I get for cheap. thickness ranges from .022~.05 and 6"x6" on avg.

The only reason I'm stubbornly stuck on this discovery is that it is directly applicable to electrostatics and plasma physics both of which are tied into the bigger project of taking Farnsworths research further.

I have been wanting to do this. the metal recycler is right next to my work. I can get just about anything copper by the pound. What size rings are you thinking about?

What kind of pulsing do you have in mind?

[madhatter]

I have been wanting to do this. the metal recycler is right next to my work. I can get just about anything copper by the pound. What size rings are you thinking about?

What kind of pulsing do you have in mind?

thickness and dia or area can be calculated based on what you can procure. I started with 2" dia disks initially. CD size which is 5.5" is probably big enough.

the surface area of all the components matched is one setup I want to test, the other is mass equivalence. details can be set based on what you can get.

As to pulsed DC, tube based electrostatic discharge if possible.

[gsmsslsb]

Replicate the tube

I would like to replicate the experiment with the windings on copper pipe.
IF and I repeat IF there was no short and the wires vaporised from outside energy source then I think it is te simplest and most effective I have yet seen.
I will draw up my idea and post here for comment.
I am wondering why after seeing this unusual event you are going back to plates rather than investigate it further.
Gsmsslsb

[madhatter]

I would like to replicate the experiment with the windings on copper pipe.
IF and I repeat IF there was no short and the wires vaporised from outside energy source then I think it is te simplest and most effective I have yet seen.
I will draw up my idea and post here for comment.
I am wondering why after seeing this unusual event you are going back to plates rather than investigate it further.
Gsmsslsb

While the tube arrangement provided such an exciting effect, I want to be able to develop equations that can predict the effect. The plates with a spiral coil violate the current magnetic field theory of the displaced current, windings in a tube will run perpendicular to the supposed field and that will give the nay-sayers something to pick on.

I haven't forgotten about it and will move onto that arrangement as well again, only instead of std 'coiled' windings I will have to jig up a form to wind them in parallel to the axis.

[broli]

This probably has very little relevance to this but your parameters of matching the mass and radius reminded me of something I saw a about a month ago posted by some guy which was pretty out there.

Here's the pdf of it:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx48...iYjgxMDZk/edit

It all has to do with phi. The length is reduced by a power of phi, while the surface area and mass of the cylinders are kept the same. This is then pulsed and supposedly charges the cap with a higher amount of energy.

[garrettm4]

Pulse Experiment

Madhatter,

Excellent work on this discovery/project! This thread has gotten me quite excited.

I have amassed quite a bit of equipment for my own experiments, if you would like I could perform the pulse experiments that you are requesting.

Here's a list of some of the equipment I have available:

2 channel 150mhz DSO Oscilloscope with various HV probes, i.e. tektronix P6015A 75mhz 1000x (good for 40kv pulses) and some 400mhz 100x/1000x PMK probes rated for 1.5kv to 4kv.

Programmable AC power source from 40hz to 500hz 0-250vac 0-3aac

Vacuum tube based 2.5kv DC power supply rated for 100ma, and two other "digital" units rated for 70v & 3a and 80v @ 7a

Various current probes rated up to 100khz with some new ones on the way (new ones are rated for 60mhz and 120mhz)

Keithley 2701 DMM for 6 1/2 count precision data logging and a fluke 289 for ungrounded measurements.

I have a large selection of power semiconductor components rated for very high current capacity, such as 100a bridge diodes or discrete TO247s, so hopefully they wont blow up. I also have a selection of wire gauges in 1000ft quantities.

Also, I've been working on a tube based capacitive impulse circuit, which is still being built, but I have all the parts available from scraped 1940-50s equipment. If all goes well with this project I will be buying some more expensive and powerful tubes to make a larger unit.

Keep up the good work, and let me know if your interested,

Garrett M

[garrettm4]

Measurement Techniques

I had some thoughts on the whole measuring methodology.

Would you recommend measuring the various quantities by using the fields (E and H) alone or the usual parallel/series interconnections with wires? Eric Dollard seems to prefer the field measurement in the Eric P. Dollard thread, while the rest of the world will most likely directly connect wires where they see fit.

The reason I bring this question up is that I have recently picked up a few old radio engineering books that have changed my view of electrical circuits, of which can be seen in the list below:

Radio Engineering, 1947 FE Terman

High-Frequency Measurements, 1951 August Hund

Communication Networks: Vol. II, The Classical Theory of Long Lines, Filters and Related Networks, 1935 Ernst A Guillemin

Theory of linear physical systems; Theory of physical systems from the viewpoint of classical dynamics, including Fourier methods, 1963 Ernst A Guillemin


August Hund's preface gives a good discussion on this topic, here's some exerps from the preface:








Some food for thought,

Garrett M

[madhatter]

Madhatter,

Excellent work on this discovery/project! This thread has gotten me quite excited.

I have amassed quite a bit of equipment for my own experiments, if you would like I could perform the pulse experiments that you are requesting.

Here's a list of some of the equipment I have available:

2 channel 150mhz DSO Oscilloscope with various HV probes, i.e. tektronix P6015A 75mhz 1000x (good for 40kv pulses) and some 400mhz 100x/1000x PMK probes rated for 1.5kv to 4kv.

Programmable AC power source from 40hz to 500hz 0-250vac 0-3aac

Vacuum tube based 2.5kv DC power supply rated for 100ma, and two other "digital" units rated for 70v & 3a and 80v @ 7a

Various current probes rated up to 100khz with some new ones on the way (new ones are rated for 60mhz and 120mhz)

Keithley 2701 DMM for 6 1/2 count precision data logging and a fluke 289 for ungrounded measurements.

I have a large selection of power semiconductor components rated for very high current capacity, such as 100a bridge diodes or discrete TO247s, so hopefully they wont blow up. I also have a selection of wire gauges in 1000ft quantities.

Also, I've been working on a tube based capacitive impulse circuit, which is still being built, but I have all the parts available from scraped 1940-50s equipment. If all goes well with this project I will be buying some more expensive and powerful tubes to make a larger unit.

Keep up the good work, and let me know if your interested,

Garrett M

Yes by all means if you're willing, I've been a bit sidetracked the last couple days as my day job takes precedent.

I've been working strictly with house mains AC, it's provided an interesting effect but it's not exactly the proper 'umph' that's needed.

I really want to see what effect is derived from pulsed DC from tubes. My concern is solid state is going to filter and add in a quantized flow.

I found an internal RCA document on vacuum tube design, going over that now to see what can be utilized here.

The H field would be present in the coil itself, how to measure the supposed field between the plates is tricky, as any charge interacting with a coil of wire will induce a magnetic field in itself. Also an ES (electrostatic wave) will convert to an EM (electromagnetic wave) upon impingement of an inhomogeneous field, the field can be an EM wave of another source and magnetic field and since a magnetic field arises in a coil from the moving charge it will also provide the transition phase.

Upon further reflection of this phenomenon it falls into tube design as the plates in a tube for the electron flow are capacitive. There has to have been some research into this at some point.

I'll keep everyone posted and get some parameters out late tonight Pacific Time.

[garrettm4]

Pulse Experiment Thoughts

Madhatter,

I did some thinking on pulse forming networks with respect to this experiment and was wondering if a Guillemin Line would be better than just a hard-switched tube.

From what I gathered, from reading the MIT Rad. Lab vol. 5 book, the engineering goal of a Guillemin PFN, is to produce an intentionally bandwidth-limited signal, (with subsequent finite rise and fall times,) which then allows for convergence of the Fourier series harmonics to produce a continuous flat top trapezoidal/rectangular pulse, which is what we are after in the DC pulse experiment?



A Guillemin PFN may allow the use of semiconductor switches, as it would then act as an intermediate filter before the load, but this is purely speculation on my part.

Also as Mr. Dollard has pointed out, that you can, if fully digested, build a Guillemin type pulse forming network that converts EM to ES and ES back to EM for two-wire to one-wire and back to two-wire interconnections. For the people not following the Eric P. Dollard thread, this is a potential avenue for Tesla type electrical power or "wireless" signal transmission with one wire, that for once is comprehensible and has engineering text available for reference and help.

I'm still waiting for my copy of Guillemin's Communication Networks Vol. II to arive and have been unable to find Vol. I, but I do have the MIT Rad. Lab Series available for reference on this topic. So the PFN might not be an option for me to build at the moment.

Some thoughts,

Garrett M

[madhatter]

Madhatter,

I did some thinking on pulse forming networks with respect to this experiment and was wondering if a Guillemin Line would be better than just a hard-switched tube.

From what I gathered, from reading the MIT Rad. Lab vol. 5 book, the engineering goal of a Guillemin PFN, is to produce an intentionally bandwidth-limited signal, (with subsequent finite rise and fall times,) which then allows for convergence of the Fourier series harmonics to produce a continuous flat top trapezoidal/rectangular pulse, which is what we are after in the DC pulse experiment?



A Guillemin PFN may allow the use of semiconductor switches, as it would then act as an intermediate filter before the load, but this is purely speculation on my part.

Also as Mr. Dollard has pointed out, that you can, if fully digested, build a Guillemin type pulse forming network that converts EM to ES and ES back to EM for two-wire to one-wire and back to two-wire interconnections. For the people not following the Eric P. Dollard thread, this is a potential avenue for Tesla type electrical power or "wireless" signal transmission with one wire, that for once is comprehensible and has engineering text available for reference and help.

I'm still waiting for my copy of Guillemin's Communication Networks Vol. II to arive and have been unable to find Vol. I, but I do have the MIT Rad. Lab Series available for reference on this topic. So the PFN might not be an option for me to build at the moment.

Some thoughts,

Garrett M

Very good info, this has got to be the most frustrating part. For every step forward there's two steps back to stop and catch-up on new info and more research.

Soooo much material to go over. I do like the challenge, not to mention I've learned more in this last yr than I ever thought I would.

As much as I want to dive in and go for it a haphazard approach isn't going to be effective. It needs direction and outline.

I'm sorry I haven't had more to share, summer season is here and my business is picking up, great downside is less free time

broad outline, two plates say 4" square, wire gauge 24, teflon insulation, or bare wire but the sheets will need a layer of teflon insulation. a good source for teflon is the teflon tape for pipe fitting.
coil winding, bifilar, std. whatever strikes ones fancy as long as it's flat and the windings are parallel to the supposed magnetic field.

I'm still trying to derive an equation that is helpful, what I've found so far is this equation:
Pi r^2[Vmax/d]sin(wt), now the interesting part is that instead of the radius being applicable to the capacitor plate it is the behavior of the coil size. An increased plate size does not in the case of AC current have an increase in voltage. voltage varies on plate spacing and wire surface area or mass.

It also raises the question of the induced magnetic field in the coil not by way of the plate charge but the flowing current in the wire.

[gsmsslsb]

Patrick Kelly has updated the Vladimir utkin information on his site.
I am not sure if this part was in there before but there is a mention of a russian highschool student doing ALMOST the same as is being investigated here.
Does anyone have any more information about the Mislavskij transformer.
I googled a site where they were aparently discussing it but all in Russian.
Anyway just thought I would bring it up as it is so close to the experiments here.
LV

[gsmsslsb]

Two pipe replication

Hello Mad Hatter
I have been trying to replicate your results with the copper pipes.
I have the copper pipes wound and I have a heavy duty industrial full wave rectifier connected.
When I connect a 440 volt capacitor acros the DC terminals I can only get about one tenth of the input voltage on the capacitor.
So @ 48 volts input only 4.5 to 5 volts on the cap.
This is only with the inner windings connected.
This is only first try so I will use the other wire of the bi fillar and try the outer windings etc etc.
One question though. Is the earth in your shematic connected to an actual ground earth or just to the other side of the cap?
Anyway thats where I am at so far.
LV

[gsmsslsb]

Hello Mad Hatter
I have been trying to replicate your results with the copper pipes.
I have the copper pipes wound and I have a heavy duty industrial full wave rectifier connected.
When I connect a 440 volt capacitor acros the DC terminals I can only get about one tenth of the input voltage on the capacitor.
So @ 48 volts input only 4.5 to 5 volts on the cap.
This is only with the inner windings connected.
This is only first try so I will use the other wire of the bi fillar and try the outer windings etc etc.
One question though. Is the earth in your shematic connected to an actual ground earth or just to the other side of the cap?
Anyway thats where I am at so far.
LV

Update
with an earth connected to either terminal of the 5 mF capacitor the voltage slowly climbs to 145volts with the supply at 48 volts.
I am not sure if it is charging somehow back from the main supply but there is No direct connection so I am still thinking.
The voltage rise is quite slow maybe 30 seconds to reach 145 volts.
I cant help wondering what would happen with my 15000 volt NST driving it.
Madhatter did you see the voltages reported in your post immediately or slow climb???
LV