Advanced Type Of Ram Pump

[velacreations]

Yes, it is interesting, though a bit complicated compared to modern ram pump designs. There are plans all over the net for these things, and many of the simple PVC ones are pretty efficient.

I am more interested in the design described in the PDF, basically a ram pump without the need for running water. I think the trick to kit will be figuring out a suitable valve. I'm not sure a check valve will work.

I do have some of the pieces laying around, so I'm going to try and put something together next week, and see if I can get it to work. Where I live, here in northern Mexico, having a water pump that doesn't require outside energy would be a huge development for us.

[reddpill]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth...

thanks, reddpill, but I know how to build a ram pump.

I was referring to the other pump mentioned at the beginning of this thread, that doesn't require moving water to operate.

I would HIGHLY SUGGEST that one does not overlook the HIDDEN "ENERGY" POTENTIAL of that subterranean 'pump' and pay close attention to what I wrote. Keep in mind that it wasn't used as a water pump, that was a by-product of the device when it was in operation. Also, I wouldn't dismiss it so casually as a common 'ram pump' either, as there would not of been an attempt at stealing it with a front end loader from it's concrete foundations, if it were so.

You can lead a horse to water...

No, the pyramid pump was introduced to me by Reddpill's post...and thepump.org

The "Pharaohs Pump" is not the Pulse Generator / Pyramid Pump by John Cadman. Do not confuse the two, as there is only one real working device and is why that website is closed down.

[velacreations]

The pyramid pump (according to John Cadman) has an efficiency of almost 20% (not verified). Most modern Ram pumps can achieve that at a fraction of the weight and complexity.

While I'm sure Cadman and others believe it had a special "other" purpose. Many people make pretty good cases that it isn't even a water pump.

"Hidden Energy Potential" of the thing is suspicious. First, shock waves tear apart ram pumps all the time. That doesn't mean there is some sort of magic happening. It means the water hammer effect is hard on materials.

There is no measurement or verification of the extra energy (if you discovered a hidden energy source, wouldn't you try and measure it?). There is a lot of wasted energy inherent to a ram pump design (especially in one that is only 20% efficient), and when you have a big one, that wasted energy will be very apparent. That doesn't mean there is a hidden potential, there, it means you have the normal 80% waste energy looking like something it is not.

You could say a ram pump is not firstly a water pump, because 80% of the energy is wasted, so really, it is "hidden energy producer" that is 80% efficient, that also pumps some water. That's exactly what John Cadman is trying to say.

Until there is significant evidence to the contrary, even calling it a ram pump is a leap of faith.

[mikrovolt]

I was introduced to a simplified ram pump in the mid 70's it was fascinating to watch the 15 gallons per minute come shooting out into the redwood tank located over 120 feet above the creek where the community homestead was located.

What I remember is the shock wave sent through the 2 -1/2" pipe was
equivalent to a blow from a large sledge hammer. The mechanical
hammer valve was heavy cast Iron probably made early 1900's. The flapper would slap closed on a thick piece of leather. I was told rubber was'nt as effective.

Seeing is believing, it would run for almost 5 hours driven by a cycle of repeated hydraulic shock waves. There are other devices that deliver shock waves in an efficient design that can perform useful work.

If you look at other pyramids some have green vegetation but the emphasis has been on the desert variety pyramids said to be cursed.
However other pyramids are located near sustained growth vegetation, these are being uncovered all over the world. Just coincidence ?

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
Pyramids in China - Widescreen HD version 2010 (Google Earth secrets) - YouTube
Pyramids of "America": The Mississippians - YouTube

[velacreations]

I personally see a lot more value in the design proposed in the PDF at the beginning of this thread.

The pyramid ram pump is definitely, interesting, don't get me wrong, but a pump that doesn't require running water is far more useful.

[moflint]

Summary so far...

So now we've got several pumps being discussed in this thread:

1) Russian patented pump (PDF available)
2) John Cadman's pump
3) Hydro-Automat as described by Arto in his eBook (see post #25 here)
4) Pyramid Pump

As far as I can discern, only 1) and 3) claim to be self-sustaining without flowing water or wasting water. I don't understand how John Cadman's pump is better - is this supposed to be able to recover the waste water?

The Russian patent system would be great if someone could figure it out. But Arto's Hydro-Automat also looks good and there should be some documentation in old archives.

[velacreations]

yeah, I agree moflint, I don't think 2) and 4) are really very impressive, especially if compared to modern ram pumps. They waste the water just the same, and they achieve 20% efficiency (supposedly), which is admirable, but nothing to write home about.

I couldn't find anything about the 3) Hydro-Automat anywhere else, but it does look like there might be some promise there. I think it would be harder to build than the 1) Russian Patented pump (PDF).

To me, 1) has the most potential as being easy to build with off the self parts. For the most part, it is a ram pump (with rearranged parts), and really, the big change is the intake valve. I really hope I have some time this week to play with making one of these.

[reddpill]

Dissapointing...

I'm sure Cadman and others believe it had a special "other" purpose. Many people make pretty good cases that it isn't even a water pump.

"Hidden Energy Potential" of the thing is suspicious.

Until there is significant evidence to the contrary, even calling it a ram pump is a leap of faith.

It would seem that some are too stuck in their own field of view to see certain potentials, so it looks like I'm wasting my time here. Anyhow, good luck with your project, I hope to see how it turns out.

[velacreations]

I just disagree in calling 80% wasted energy a hidden potential.

[gsmsslsb]

Any updates

Hello All
Has anyone done any more on the russian ram pummp in the first post.
I am still trying to fathom what it is that shuts the main check valve and what opens it again after the first cycle.
Does anyone have the book from artoj on scribd.
I cant get scribd so if anyone can PM me a copy I would be very grateful.
Gsm

[gsmsslsb]

Russian pump or artoj pump????

Hi All, Here is a link to one of my books which shows a graphic description of a ram pump of a different design. Go to page 42 and 43, I hope this helps, Regards Arto

The Oscillations of the Magic Square Four

Hello all does anyone have this file
I am interested in the pump mentioned in it
I cannot get it from scribd for some reason
If anyyone can attach it here that would be great.
Thanks All
gsm

[gyula]

Hej, it is a 11 MB pdf file. Try this link: The Oscillations Of The Magic Square Four Free Ebooks (pdf, doc, ppt, pps, xls files ) (use the lower link in it)

By the way Arto is a member here and active, send him an message if the link is unsuccessful.

Gyula

[artoj]

Unfinished File

Hi gsmsslsb.
I am a long way from completing my study of this pump, it seems patience is not a possibility here on the forums, so here is version 1. This is without optimization or pressure values, to be honest it still needs to be completed as this will only give you a basic geometry of its operation. regards Arto.

[artoj]

Any replications?

Hi All,
I released my preliminary drawings over 4 months ago, I have not heard from anybody about the design. Just in case you are stuck on any part, a good read on a few dozen books on hydraulic and hydrological engineering should help those who want to go beyond the drawing into building a unit, my suggestion based on the long silence of replies.

In the meantime I am getting closer to completing volume 1(possible 5 sets) of my books "Talking to the Birds". I might have to release it very soon(financial reasons) even if I am not quite finished, this is why I am releasing it in volumes so any updates can be added to the next volume.

Volume 1
Machines
Energy
Electronics

Volume 2
Numbers
Geometry
Art

Volume 3
Music
History
Astronomy

Volume4
Magic Squares
Earth
Inventions

Volume 5
Nikola Tesla
Artwork
My Own Scanned Workbooks

So I hope your patience will be well rewarded very soon, both with the pump design and my books, regards Arto

[Gdez]

Hydromat

@ Artoj,
I really like your work on this. I originally built a mock up of the russian patent design and while I could not get it to work with just gravity feed, it was interesting when I put pressure to it. I like the submersion model at the beginning of this thread, but could find no more info on building. After reading some on the hydromat, I realised that I probably have the materials on hand to build one. If you could design a small one (large chambers no bigger than 10" pipe US Imperial) 6 inch would be better. I could probably build this very easily, and I have thought of a clever bladder like valve as the stop valve. I do not have the ability to machine parts and this was a reason I lost some interest in this. I would like to also ask how the efficiency of this model compares to a ram pump. I have built them and I could build several an hour if I had the parts and materials in front of me. The hydromat sounds like an interesting device to build, so if you could do the dimensions for a model where the chambers are 6" or less, if it was sucsessfull, I could possibly do up to a 20 inch" Chamber size.
Question--- do the u bends have to be curved or can the trap be straight piped. this is important to know for building.
thanks
Gdez