My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[marxist]

Hi Garry,

... p1 on the rotor body ...

I see Kogs tried to clarify already.
However there is just one basic misunderstanding, as far as I can see:
"P-1" on the rotor body does NOT mean "rotor pole 1"
It means "coil pair 1", with the double-sided arrow pointing to the dark blue "wires" of that coil pair.
and
"P-1" on the commutator means "commutator element connected to coil pair 1"

[iankoglin]

@ufoPolitics

This is the hardest part of understanding your drawings. All of the parts are labeled with the same nomenclature. P1 on both of the commutators and p1 on the rotor body and nothing to describe the slots that are on each side of the rotor p1 - p5. What I am trying to describe is the winding of the first pair of lines the dark blue lines which are wound with three coils on the rotor. If I have that right I will proceed to the second pair of lines. As I look at your renderings you are encompassing 3 of the poles on the rotor with 3 coils being wound simultaneously. One around p5 and p1 then continuing around p1 to wind the middle coil and after that one around p2 and p1 and around p1 again and then continuing to wrap around p1 and p5. After doing this 30 times moving over to p2 and starting a fresh group this time every thing that I just did moves over to p1 wrapping around p2 and then around p2 and p3. Is this the correct procedure or are we wrapping around p5 and p1 30 times and then around p1 and p2 30 times and then moving to the next group? I cannot tell from your renderings the correct procedure. When we wound the north and south poles we wrapped an entire coil on the south 30 winds and then the north 30 times. Interleaving suggests to me that the two coils are being woven at the same time. I am trying to clear this up in my mind. Maybe I will try both methods and see which performs better.

Cheers

Garry

G'day Garry
The P1 is describing which Pair
on the armature P1 depicts the centre of the pair
On the top commutator P1 depicts the starting point of the winding of the pair
On the bottom commutator P1 Depicts the ending point of the pair
I hope this helps somewhat

Kindest Regards

Kogs trying to help

[BroMikey]

Trying to Understand

Hello Cornboy,

Please don't rush it...

The Three Pole I am "re-analyzing" it...not in order to start building Three Poles again!!...

Like I wrote at end of the second post...let's consider this 3 pole as a "Modular" and "Expandable" into other more complex machines...

For example...your MAG3 has 36 Poles...dividing it by three (3) gives Us exactly 12 Poles...meaning, You could wind overlapped Coils totaling Groups that extend to 12 poles, then You have Three Groups...BUT, that means those Three Groups would be only the "Interacting Ones" with Stators...NOT YOUR TOTAL OF GROUPS!!...just like I represented on Imperial P1, P8, P15 and P22, but Imperial had 28 total Pairs...understand my Friend?

In Your design, I have to go by Stator size in order to determine each coil length/number of poles...then calculate per Group Total to be fit between Two Stators range...and so on for the other Four...be patient, your Machine IS "Upgradable" as is, without any major structural changes...That's why was named "Mag 3"...



Nope, You are thinking of SOUTH N3 as a solely Magnetic Field, with a bisector on center of Pole...but it is NOT!...N3 South (whenever N3 is not energized) is part of a MAIN Redirected South Field from N1 (while N1 is energized) that DERIVES/SPLITS into TWO Poles (N2+N3)...So it ONLY have ONE Bisector...right at slot between those two Poles.
And I am describing according to Diagram positioning above...when we get N2 or N3 to be energized the whole thing gets changed/swapped...



My pleasure


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hello UFO

What does it do when the wind is done this way? Just a generalization.

I am sort of green and I see all of these motors and I can't understand what they are doing different after it is done this way.

Thanks for a simple answer in advance.

Mike ps it's like nothing else I know of so I better ask

[GChilders]

videos

@ufoPolitics

Yes I have downloaded and watched all three of these videos. Very impressive performance from that little motor!! Looked at the one you recommended and I am still a little unclear as the wires seem to not interleave with each other but are parallel to each other. It is a minor point and that is why I am asking that you follow through the description of the winding, because I am trying to describe with words and your own nomenclature on the parts of the motor what I am seeing. Obviously not well enough because you didn't understand what I described. No problem I will wind it and see how well it Works.

Cheers

Garry

[GChilders]

poles commutators and coils

@ufoPolitics

This is the hardest part of understanding your drawings. All of the parts are labeled with the same nomenclature. P1 on both of the commutators and p1 on the rotor body and nothing to describe the slots that are on each side of the rotor p1 - p5. What I am trying to describe is the winding of the first pair of lines the dark blue lines which are wound with three coils on the rotor. If I have that right I will proceed to the second pair of lines. As I look at your renderings you are encompassing 3 of the poles on the rotor with 3 coils being wound simultaneously. One around p5 and p1 then continuing around p1 to wind the middle coil and after that one around p2 and p1 and around p1 again and then continuing to wrap around p1 and p5. After doing this 30 times moving over to p2 and starting a fresh group this time every thing that I just did moves over to p1 wrapping around p2 and then around p2 and p3. Is this the correct procedure or are we wrapping around p5 and p1 30 times and then around p1 and p2 30 times and then moving to the next group? I cannot tell from your renderings the correct procedure. When we wound the north and south poles we wrapped an entire coil on the south 30 winds and then the north 30 times. Interleaving suggests to me that the two coils are being woven at the same time. I am trying to clear this up in my mind. Maybe I will try both methods and see which performs better.

Cheers

Garry

[Ufopolitics]

Please don't rush...

[IMG][/IMG]

Ahhhhhh, UFO, Simplicity, love it.

I originally was going to scratch build a large three pole, mainly because of the winding simplicity, and the shear volume of heavy gauge wire you can fit on a rotor like that.

With my MAG3 it would be easy to have 100 x 2mm laminations cut to three pole design, and simply wind the 6 stators to 1xnorth and 1xsouth.

Of course i won't and cant rush into this just yet.

Hello Cornboy,

Please don't rush it...

The Three Pole I am "re-analyzing" it...not in order to start building Three Poles again!!...

Like I wrote at end of the second post...let's consider this 3 pole as a "Modular" and "Expandable" into other more complex machines...

For example...your MAG3 has 36 Poles...dividing it by three (3) gives Us exactly 12 Poles...meaning, You could wind overlapped Coils totaling Groups that extend to 12 poles, then You have Three Groups...BUT, that means those Three Groups would be only the "Interacting Ones" with Stators...NOT YOUR TOTAL OF GROUPS!!...just like I represented on Imperial P1, P8, P15 and P22, but Imperial had 28 total Pairs...understand my Friend?

In Your design, I have to go by Stator size in order to determine each coil length/number of poles...then calculate per Group Total to be fit between Two Stators range...and so on for the other Four...be patient, your Machine IS "Upgradable" as is, without any major structural changes...That's why was named "Mag 3"...

One Question arises from the image above friend, When N1 is first energized, would N3 be in repel mode with south stator before the rotor bisector is past halfway, causing momentary opposition to rotation, or does Gravity an rotary momentum, take over??.

Nope, You are thinking of SOUTH N3 as a solely Magnetic Field, with a bisector on center of Pole...but it is NOT!...N3 South (whenever N3 is not energized) is part of a MAIN Redirected South Field from N1 (while N1 is energized) that DERIVES/SPLITS into TWO Poles (N2+N3)...So it ONLY have ONE Bisector...right at slot between those two Poles.
And I am describing according to Diagram positioning above...when we get N2 or N3 to be energized the whole thing gets changed/swapped...

Thanks for all you are doing here UFO,

Warm Regards Cornboy.

My pleasure


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

@ufoPolitics

ufo I have stripped the 6 motors from goldmine and put the armatures and commutators on a new shaft and have 3 rotors ready to wind. I just wanted to clear up the wind in my mind because you said something about interleaving the area in the center and also 3 coils. Here is how I see it please correct me if I am wrong. Connect to the top commutator P1 come around rotor P5 continue down slot to bottom of rotor in clockwise direction wind around P1 up on slot left of P1 and then clockwise down on right side of P1 to the bottom of the rotor and then in clockwise direction come up on the slot left of P2 and then in clockwise direction down on slot to right of P1 to bottom of rotor and then up slot to left of P1 continuing to wind clockwise to the slot to the right of P5 and now we are where we started and do this 30 times and then tie off at bottom commutator p1. I think that is right.

Cheers

Garry

Hello Garry,

Is hard for me to understand by the way you are describing it, I am sorry.
You are mentioning Three Coils?...but referring to the Five Poles?...or you meant Three Poles for each Pair of Coils?

One question, did you watch my latest two videos? plus this one below?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSs2beNfAP8

Can you see the way it goes on this 50 sec 3D CAD?

The Upper brush element in Red is Positive, while the black on bottom is negative, both coils Interleave or overlap at a center common Pole...both wound CW...That's your P1...then do P2 in Aqua color exactly the same way as in Diagram below:

[IMG][/IMG]

Notice P2 first Coil (right below its starting element) winds exactly on top of P1 Second/end Coil...and so on.

Let me know if you understood now...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[GChilders]

new wind

@ufoPolitics

ufo I have stripped the 6 motors from goldmine and put the armatures and commutators on a new shaft and have 3 rotors ready to wind. I just wanted to clear up the wind in my mind because you said something about interleaving the area in the center and also 3 coils. Here is how I see it please correct me if I am wrong. Connect to the top commutator P1 come around rotor P5 continue down slot to bottom of rotor in clockwise direction wind around P1 up on slot left of P1 and then clockwise down on right side of P1 to the bottom of the rotor and then in clockwise direction come up on the slot left of P2 and then in clockwise direction down on slot to right of P1 to bottom of rotor and then up slot to left of P1 continuing to wind clockwise to the slot to the right of P5 and now we are where we started and do this 30 times and then tie off at bottom commutator p1. I think that is right.

Cheers

Garry

[Cornboy 555]

Hey Midas, it wouldn't be so hard, to make a new rotor to fit the imperial, and just rearrange the magnets to suit.

If someone took it on and it was successfull, maybe they could be mass produced cheaply!!.

Thinking out loud, Regards Cornboy.

PS. Won't be at my computer again till friday night my time.

Take Care Everybody.

[Midaztouch]

@ UFO

EDIT: @ Midaz and all Imperial owners: Do not feel bad about this two posts...Imperial makes a P66 (66/3= 22...)...that I helped a Member (can't remember his name here, think was Donald Haas) to wind it in the old fashion...I will find him (or you guys help me) ...to make a "total recall" on that future Monster...We need to know if armature has same diameter...and will fit into the P56 Housing...plus pictures...

As far as the p66 goes. The length is too short and the diameter is too thick to fit in the p56 frame. I'm trying to work something out already. Keep doing your thing!


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Cornboy 555]

[IMG][/IMG]

Ahhhhhh, UFO, Simplicity, love it.

I originally was going to scratch build a large three pole, mainly because of the winding simplicity, and the shear volume of heavy gauge wire you can fit on a rotor like that.

With my MAG3 it would be easy to have 100 x 2mm laminations cut to three pole design, and simply wind the 6 stators to 1xnorth and 1xsouth.

Of course i won't and cant rush into this just yet.

One Question arises from the image above friend, When N1 is first energised, would N3 be in repell mode with south stator before the rotor bisector is past halfway, causing momentary opposition to rotation, or does Gravity an rotary momentum, take over??.

Thanks for all you are doing here UFO,

Warm Regards Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

The Magnificence of Three...Part Two

Ok, so now let's see the Mechanical Properties...or could say "attributes" to the Three Poles Structure in Asymmetrical fashion...

[IMG][/IMG]

We do not need here to represent the Coil (s)...just the Steel Core...plus the mechanical elements needed for analysis...even though, we need to consider the Copper Mass from all Three Coils related to their "specific" angles positioning during rotation...however, that would be a pretty long post...that belongs to a Big Book Chapter...not for here...

So, let's make it simple...

N1 Coil when activated develop a force F1, based on a dual action, repulse-attract...which is simultaneously "reinforced" by a redirection of its South Polarity to S-1A and S-1B outer circumference of "South Hemisphere" of rotor core, producing a force F2.

In calculation of Forces versus Mass, we need that the Sum of F1+F2 or Total Electromagnetic Force generated by N1, be able to displace the Total Sum Weight of Copper Coils Mass plus their related Steel Cores from N2+N3...braking the Inertia Forces, plus, if positioned as Diagram, with Horizontal intermittent Green Line (which is also the Stators Bisectors Line) Gravity Forces would be opposing...

Looking at the Mechanical aspects of this operation...we realize that N2 + N3 Total Mass and Volume displacement, is serving as Counterweight Balance to N1 Mass...and, after passing vertical center line to "unbalance" will help assist following sequentially positioned Coils... and assisted by Gravity.

We then must realize that once N1 is disconnected...N2 will be replacing N1 ...and so on for N3...then repeat back to N1...

And if we consider N1/N2/N3 as a "Modular Structure"...we could then expand modules into more complex number of Interactions...while using same or common Static Side...or Stators.

Unfortunately...the way I see this "Magnificence of Three" to be achieved...we need that North Firing Coils could "Exhaust" their South Poles through an "Open Space"...meaning, not having a "Mirror Effect" right at 180º apart...that would actually cancel this "Free" amplification/redirection...and I said "unfortunately" just because -SO FAR- this same "effect" could not be "Symmetrically" reproduced or Mirror Imaged on a Four Stator , Four Brush System.

The "Good News" are that we could expand into Multiples of Three more complex structures...and just swap (Two) Stators to become N-N-S-S...plus we could wind groups instead of single coils...

We could also "Linearly" expand Sequences through a longer shaft...that no necessarily need to be within the 2D Circumferential Setting we have up to now...

I believe many of you could figure out the way Forces are on for the Five Poles, as disadvantages...however, whenever I have a chance I will make Diagram.


Regards...and sorry for such long couple of posts...


Ufopolitics


EDIT: @ Midaz and all Imperial owners: Do not feel bad about this two posts...Imperial makes a P66 (66/3= 22...)...that I helped a Member (can't remember his name here, think was Donald Haas) to wind it in the old fashion...I will find him (or you guys help me) ...to make a "total recall" on that future Monster...We need to know if armature has same diameter...and will fit into the P56 Housing...plus pictures...

[Zardox]

video

I noticed in the video when the bulb was lit that when the amps went up the voltage went down slightly and the motor increased speed. I am wondering what kind of effect a machanical load would have.

[iankoglin]

Cornman - you might want to check into Kingsoft PC Doctor and Super Anti-spyware free edition. they are what I use to get all the junk off my pc. Kingsoft does a killer job getting all the temp files, cookies, and most of the spyware/malware off, plus optimizing, and Super Anti takes care of the rest for me. Both are free. Just make sure you download them from their home-pages and nowhere else unless u want the extra junk and toolbars and maybe viruses.....


It seems that everyone is putting a whole lot of time and effort into figuring out what size wire and how many wraps of it to use for optimal performance.... is there any way we can come up with some formulas to calculate this?? I used to be one heck of a math whiz before I let myself get sucked into the underworld, so I have to gain that back now. I'm working on it now, but I need to get my hands on some books to speed up the process. I'm going to work on the formula idea, but I'm definitely going to need info I don't have yet in order to do so, so if it is possible, which I believe it is, I'll do my best to figure it out..... unless there already is something out there? it seems to me that all that is really going to be needed is some sort of value put to the CEMF.....???

G'day Brian
When I have a bare armature ready to wind I take the estimated wire gauge and wind fully the slots for one Pole pair (when you wind the wire you must pull the wire very tight for every portion of turn) Counting each turn)so you know how many total turns for this wire gauge. Then for this type of winding I divide the total turns by 4 and this is the number of turns for each Half pair. You can use this wire still if you carefully un wind it

Kindest Regards
Kogs At Work Photo by Kogs1 | Photobucket

[sampojo]

figuring coil wire lengths

It seems that everyone is putting a whole lot of time and effort into figuring out what size wire and how many wraps of it to use for optimal performance.... is there any way we can come up with some formulas to calculate this?? I used to be one heck of a math whiz before I let myself get sucked into the underworld, so I have to gain that back now. I'm working on it now, but I need to get my hands on some books to speed up the process. I'm going to work on the formula idea, but I'm definitely going to need info I don't have yet in order to do so, so if it is possible, which I believe it is, I'll do my best to figure it out..... unless there already is something out there? it seems to me that all that is really going to be needed is some sort of value put to the CEMF.....???

Brian, Its a little math and a little seat of the pants thing. We usually increase the wire used to be about 2ga more maybe 3. I look at the amount of wire you take off the motor and then the amount of space on an area basis that the manufacturer left open in the armature, perhaps for cooling. We want our armatures completely stuffed with copper except for perhaps leaving room for a fence to keep wire from flying out of the armature. For most experimental motors epoxe could be relied upon to hold the wire in. So I eyeball the space and estimate it and then add to the length of the wire, 25% (5/4ths increase). Then I look at the percent change of area from the new wire gauge used, and apply that percentage increase to the wire length again. Then divide by the number of poles for the length of wire to be used on any one coil "group" now. So with this you go ahead and start winding the coils. As you go always eyeball the amount of space in the pole gaps with the number of poles remaining. If it looks like they are filling up to fast you have overestimated the length of the coils. Unwind shorten and start over. The whole point of getting a good estimate of the needed length is to not have to redo the winding, very time consuming.