My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Turion]

I have at different times. Honestly I can't remember what I saw, but I can measure it again.

[iankoglin]

G'day UFO
I today picked up my Windscreen motor/s modified by my local friend Andrew

G'Day UFO
I finished winding the windscreen motor using the latest double pentagon setup but when I used the DMM to test for continuity I found that I had the first winding pair is about .4 ohms larger than the other 4 probably about 5 to 8 turns too much I thought it was going to be too much to unwind it all and rewind so I just had to try it.

It ran very smooth and quiet.

Unfortunately I have come down with some sort of flue which has put me out of action and I have not yet done some measurements In fact I do not have another un modified motor to compare with.

Kindest regards



Still working but not so hard

[Ufopolitics]

It will be good to find out...

I have at different times. Honestly I can't remember what I saw, but I can measure it again.

Hey Dave,

So You do remember very well how many Amps you are getting IN, which is according to you as many here...a lot of Amps...but no one seems to remember... or care... how much You are getting OUT?...

A "heck of a fair" approach, Dave!!...

However...I love your sincerity and your honesty Dave!!

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Great Ian!!

G'Day UFO
I finished winding the windscreen motor using the latest double pentagon setup but when I used the DMM to test for continuity I found that I had the first winding pair is about .4 ohms larger than the other 4 probably about 5 to 8 turns too much I thought it was going to be too much to unwind it all and rewind so I just had to try it.

It ran very smooth and quiet.

Unfortunately I have come down with some sort of flue which has put me out of action and I have not yet done some measurements In fact I do not have another un modified motor to compare with.

Kindest regards



Still working but not so hard

Hello Ian!!


Great to know it is running smooth!!...Most of times a few Milli ohms here or there...will not make a big difference Ian...and at High Speeds it will equalize out even more...

Stay away from bad weather...and take care... we need you around!!

You've got a good motor for your bike now!!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Turion]

UFO,
I never did GET an input amp reading on the modified motor. When I first started working on this, the analogue gauges I had were 5 amp, and the INITIAL amp draw of the motor was over 5 amps, so I never used the amp gauges. I ordered the 75 amp analogue gauges (I bought three of them) thinking they would get me the info I wanted, but when I got them, the motor would not run with them in line because it did not pull enough amps through the gauge to run. So then I ordered 3 of the 30 amp gauges and the only time I measured the amp draw of the motor with those was when I did the test and put a load on the motor to bring the amp draw up to 6 amps. So I can't HONESTLY say I know HOW many amps the modified motor draws.

In the statement I think you are referencing I said: "If it has more torque, but also pulls more amps do I really HAVE something?? It depends doesn't it??"

Because without the proper data that question could be answered "YES" OR "NO." It depends on how much more torque you get for how many more amps. So without data, you really DO NOT KNOW. That was the point I was trying to make, NOT that the motor draws lots more amps.

I hope that clarifies my position. I can test the motor tomorrow, because now I have gauges, but just thinking back to some stuff I was doing today, the motor was running on the 3 BGS and it was pulling less than two amps. How much less I couldn't say, but I know it wasn't OVER two amps, and that was running a fan as a load off the motor generator output. SO it is only the INITIAL draw that is high. That I can say with some degree of assurance.

Dave

[JohnStone]

....So you want to become a coil winder. Repeat after me..... I love to wind coils..... ....

Thanks for the kind hints. YES I'm going to wind the first motor in my life!

@ALL
Regarding my idea for torque measurement? An additional explanation:
Peter Lindeman did a dead simple test for imediate demonstartion. Because of simplicity the force for brake action and torque force are mixed in one direction.
1. As we need some advanced tests for clear proof we need to improve the setup. I am shure Peter would have done it beyound the simple demonstration if he were in our state!
So my suggestion separates the brake forth only by introducing the HDD bearing.
2. The bearing supports the brake force and only this. There is no further malicious influence to our readings.
3. Torque is being forwarded to the lever action - and only torque - initiating a minute disk rotation. Along this it builds the difference automatically and forwards it to the meter.
4. If the yellow screws at the disk are at same distance from the bearing and this distance is i.e. 10 times the shaft radius then we have clearly 1/10 reading of the real torque force at our motor shaft - PRECISELY. We can play with the position of the yellow screws in order to get different ranges of force translation - quite similar to a normal DVM.

[redrichie]

Turion and all
Hear me out. nd any of you can tell me to shut up. Again I haven't builtbkne of these yet. But I've been reading this and the other thread from day one. But I, like many others, have been part of this forum for a good amount of time. As such I too have spent. Considerable amount of time and money into this hobby and research.
What I'm getting at is when UFO presented this it wasn't "here's a motor that beats all other motors" as a motor only. It was started as a small learning tool. Get this down and replicate and then I will show you bigger. And then I will show you what to do with it. It wasn't really presented as a motor but a machine. And really only part of a machine. His very own presentation shows it hooked to something else. So to me it doesn't matter at this point what the measurements are. The machine isn't complete.

Seems like everyone is getting very caught up in measuring input voltage, current,. But no one is measuring any output....anything. this thing has an output from the prime mover but it is also able to be connected to another output source such as another motor/generator. Also I seen to remember some folks saying that their input battery had some nice effects such as spontaneous recharge or something similar. And it was stated that this isn't hot electricity but the elusive cold or radiant. Which is different. So seeing as I have never seen a meter that measures radiant output it doesn't seem logical to measure it with traditional gauges. Though helpful I know, it seems that the answer your looking for would be in total output connected to a "balanced" load. Not in a meter. Not in a torque measurement.
Even if the input to the asymmetric is slightly higher doesn't mean anything. The motor your measuring against doesn't give you anything in return. So its like comparing a motorcycle to a bicycle. Both have 2 wheels and go down the same road. But one uses calories and gives you good health. The other uses fossil fuel and can be bad for your health in many ways. 2 different yet similar machines.
Not bashing anything your doing turion. Your motor is awesome. And you have put in so much work. Keep it up. You are awesome.. stay positive.

[Zardox]

With all the talk on testing methods I hesitate to even mention my little Radio Shack motor wound with the dual penta. UFO asked so I will state my results of tuning both brush ends.
With no load input was at 8.84 volts
Output was at 7.8 vollts
Output with a 100 Ohm resistor as load was 5.8 volts
I cannot measure the amps until I order a new fuse as I blew it on another project.
I should mention that on extended runs the shaft does get very hot.
I am going to look for a bigger motor with some actual bearings and a shaft long enough to take advantage of the mechanical output to rewind.

[JohnStone]

.... So to me it doesn't matter at this point what the measurements are. The machine isn't complete....
... So its like comparing a motorcycle to a bicycle......

Hi redrichie,
very true! I understand your concern and I heve similar thoughts BUT:

Take in account we are an open source research community. Research is very differnet from engineereing. There is more blindness, confusing, unknown lands but a strong vision. Apart that - open source worldwide means that there are more different setups, skills, conditions than contributors. On one hand this is confusing and impeding and delaying. On the other hand the plurality of conditions will guarantee a dead proved setup in the end.
It is quite different from univerity research and they often go wrong ways for years.

What did we achieve?

• Winding schemes for a variaty of readily available motors.
• Different replications - often confusing - but still funding the vision very strongly.
• Vast learning effects.
• Initial measurements
  

Current state:

• We have kind and effective help with Ufo and others
• Unfortunately motor test stands are very expensive and complicated and this is an obstacle at the moment. We struggle for simple and sufficiently accurate metering in order to measure a replication being well balanced with load.
• Small motors are good for first steps but they are no good basis for serious measurements because of multiple inaccurancies.
• In summary: we still arrange our workshop

Next steps:

• Replications starting with appr. the size of a vacuum motor.
• Perfecting and standardization for torque measurement.
• Adjustable electrical and mechanical loads in order to take measurements for taking graphs and efficiency calculations. There are still too many confusions to this matter.
• Study of cold electricity at the setups.
• Long term measurements for checking the behavour of the batteries.
• Practical us on generators and vehicles

Drawbacks:
Most of us need to earn their life and/or are restricted with funds so few of us can do much research in their free time left.
But we are many in our community and we have a visionary dream and we will succeed in the end.

[Ufopolitics]

Don't worry...I am reading You...

With all the talk on testing methods I hesitate to even mention my little Radio Shack motor wound with the dual penta. UFO asked so I will state my results of tuning both brush ends.

Hello Zardox,

That's great news and thanks for sharing your results!
And, do not worry about other posts about measurement and other input displayed here...I am still reading you as TO ME...The MOST IMPORTANT THING HERE IS TO REPLICATE...REPLICATE, REPLICATE...then TEST.
Unfortunately, there are more "talk,talk, talk and then some more talk than actual replications...and that is NOT the point here.

I particularly do not like to waste tons of time on "thinking how this could be done, and spending vasts amount of time and paper on that"...but getting my hands ON and MAKING IT REAL, MAKING IT HAPPEN...

So, please, do not Hesitate at ALL, to post results and pictures and videos or whatever information on data to be analyzed here.

With no load input was at 8.84 volts
Output was at 7.8 vollts
Output with a 100 Ohm resistor as load was 5.8 volts
I cannot measure the amps until I order a new fuse as I blew it on another project.
I should mention that on extended runs the shaft does get very hot.
I am going to look for a bigger motor with some actual bearings and a shaft long enough to take advantage of the mechanical output to rewind.

Ok, so you are getting a pretty good output, awesome!, that means you've got a very good alignment of brushes...

Ok so 100 ohms and 5.8 Volts that renders around 58 Milli Amps(Ohms Law I=V/R) ...and you are using same battery of 0.85 Amps...so that is pretty good. You could try lower values resistors and calculate a closer result on Amps Out...without an Amp meter...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

About Testing Measurements

Hello to All,

I would like to address in order to REMIND ALL Members on this Thread as to what's our main goal so far HERE...And I am sorry if I have to be very blunt about my opinion.

First thing We ALL need to do here is replicate, make a model, or two or fifteen, then talk about "different types of possibilities we could use to make measurements"

For some reason most of the participants that are offering different methods of measuring torque, power, testing my machines...etc...As also "objecting" to the chosen methods by ME HERE (Peter Lindemann Video on Dyno) ...Happens to be the ones that have not been replicating at all or have done it at minimal scale, with not one good test yet..?

Now, honestly, I do not like that...

The "PREROGATIVE" MUST BE GIVEN to those WHO HAVE ALREADY MAKE REPLICATIONS...Sorry about it...but that's the way I WANT IT HERE.

Therefore, Members that have shown, shared and uploaded here many videos, pictures, data of their builds, etc...TO ME...have a main priority over ALL those that HAVE NOT DONE ABSOLUTELY NADA...CLEAR SO FAR?

I do not like that a replicating Member feels "hesitation" to post the MOST IMPORTANT THING HERE, that is their RESULTS!!!!

Just because all the NOISE ON SPECULATION OF "AN IDEA"...SORRY BUT NO!!

Therefore let's move ON...With Replications and Testing on EXISTING REPLICATIONS...NO MORE OTHER POSSIBLE METHODS on "non existing Replications" PLEASE!!

I have done excessive research on Small Dyno's Building...they are ALL INCOMPLETE, some too COMPLEX...or applicable to Gas Engines, or bigger Machines etc,...while Torque Sensors are "Untouchable" because of $$...SO...I FIND THE BEST EXAMPLE , CHEAPER and SIMPLE TESTING HERE SO FAR IS PETER LINDEMANN VIDEO.


Let's concentrate ON BUILDING THEM FIRST...As I have given SO MANY DIFFERENT structure types...that can fit almost ANY MOTOR OUT THERE...So DESIGN SPEC's and WONDERFUL GRAPHICS is NOT a Problem at ALL...


Thanks Much, I appreciate it.


UFOPOLITICS

[DadHav]

Test

I have a question:
Do you think it would be possible to make a small setup for doing a Lindemann torque test? What I mean is a small enough wheel to use on a little motor. Could small digital pull scales be used with a leather shoestring as an example? I probably missed this somewhere but could the string go around the wheel and then pulled in a horizontal direction from each side or does it have to contact just half the diameter? If you could do one full turn it would relive the upward bearing pressure and friction as well as probably stop some of the vibrations.
John Hav.
Sorry I posted before seeing the above comments from UFO. Disregard please.
J

[Ufopolitics]

Why I like Peter Lindemann Dyno?...Here

Hello to All,

Ok, here I made a simple Graphic of the most important forces involved when we are trying to measure Force, Speed and Displacement in One Action at an specific Momentum...

Trust me, there are more angles of accelerations and take off forces...plus other vectors generated as speed increase...BUT, I want to keep it as simple as possible.

[IMG][/IMG]

As it also answer other "doubts" and discard other "possibilities" as trying to "change" this set-up...AS IS.
What I see, and WHY I LIKE this particular set-up...is:

1) We are including/comprehending all Vector of Forces involved here... and that is why we do need TWO Scales.
2) It offers measurement easier of ALL Parameters required and very precisely displayed and easy to be taken.

Now realize that F1 is our applied force Up...that is to create a Friction between Wheel and Belt, as it will apply a rotating drag to wheel it will slow down RPM's...but NOT to the point of too close to stall/stop Motor... as Amperage will raise...and the more we apply F1 the more Amps we will get...the "BALANCE" on OUR FORCE here is to apply a steady force F1 in order to have a constant Amp Draw til we are finished taking-reading all parameters.
And NO, belt can NOT be "greased up"...the purpose is to have friction there.
We have to let Motor rotation Force (F2 Vector) to predominate and mark a steady value on Scale 2

This whole "scenario" is based on Rotation R Direction, as everything will change at opposite R. However, changing rotation sense is simple by just inverting Battery Polarities...

After all this Work displayed plus all other diagrams I have dedicated to this "ISSUE" of making our Dyno...

PLEASE,I will like NO FURTHER arguments-discussions about trying to change this set AS IS SHOWN HERE, or bringing other methods as We are using this one as a an "OFFICIAL" guide here.

I am not saying that we can not add a steady weight at F1 as Turion was suggesting...THAT is completely within this same set-up, it is just changing forces applications...but is about same set.

First BUILD...Then TEST...

This is just ONE Test here...as we need to make many more further on, and as I have to keep going on here...please, let's not diverge and expand so much on just such simple testing.


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[Sanskara316]

Drawbacks:
Most of us need to earn their life and/or are restricted with funds so few of us can do much research in their free time left.
But we are many in our community and we have a visionary dream and we will succeed in the end.

Hi John, It's very sad and very true

Hi UFO Sorry I suggested, what I thought would somehow help, to ease some of the problems in the torque test. , I'm still looking for the right commutator pair, been stuck with the 24 pole vaccuum motor, I can't find the same commutator to complete it. sorry I can't afford the big ones, but I will still try. Again sorry I'll remove it asap

[Turion]

redrichie,
UFO WANTED us to test his motor against the stock motor. In fact, he has given me a lot of grief for NOT completing those tests. I understand it is only part of a larger picture, but a motor is designed to accomplish certain things at a given set of parameters. The question is, does UFO's design accomplish those same things at those given set of parameters more efficiently than a stock motor. That is his contention. All we are trying to do is prove or disprove it based on one thing...accurate data. It MIGHT draw fewer amps. It MIGHT produce more shaft torque. It MIGHT produce usable power while matching a standard motor in all other catagories. It might draw more amps but produce more power and torque, so you need to see the DATA to graph the relationship to know what is more efficient. Unless you know what you've got, you don't know if it's any good, so it NEEDS to be tested. Unless you know what you've got, where do you begin to improve it. Unless you know what you've got, how will you ever understand it and the principles by which it works in order to apply those principals in other context. Too many people have come on this forum, claimed some bullis**t and gotten a lot of people to spend a lot of money and then disappeared. That gives ALL of us a bad name and a black eye. All I am trying to do is systematically test this setup to make sure that any claims are realistic. I am not FOR UFO or AGAINST UFO. I am FOR the truth. Testing is part of the scientific process of evaluating and understanding, and that is why I am doing it. Because I WANT to understand.

People say there is no such thing as a machine that produces more power than it consumes (to run) to any significant degree. But once you have seen such a machine run, have tested it. Have spent days watching it do what everyone says it can't possibly do, NO ONE can convince me that such machines can't be built. I have that conviction deep down inside where nobody can get at it no matter what they say. I would love to feel that way about UFO's motor, but I don't yet. I haven't finished the necessary testing. But I will. And then I will speak with the kind of conviction that comes from KNOWLEDGE, not the kind that comes from a DESIRE that something be real.

Dave