My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[sampojo]

Radio Shack AN-1 finito

Took a chance and ran it with only wooden hedges for a quick test, maybe got 29000 rpm on just one brush set. Here it is with a coat of epoxy on the windings. Needs to cure.



Dreaming up a test rig... want to use a panel ammeter rather than a digital multimeter.

Good night

[sampojo]

Selecting to wind AN-1

After a third look at the data from BOTW, AN-1 seems to be a little bit better in rpm with just a miniscule increase in amps. If it has better wide-open unloaded rpm, I say it has better torque, to get that extra rpm.

Dang, shattered a commutator Friday, got another motor yesterday, had to pull down a tree Saturday for my solar panels installation too. Might've been winding this evening rather than building the rotor still...

Radio Shack had a neat Xmod RC car on sale $10. I intend to teach my grandsons asym motor construction with, maybe race these, boy will they clean up!

Here is new rotor with the the Pentagon Y rotor.



epoxy is curing.

winding tomorrow night hopefully.

Reran some tests on the Pent Y, got a 150degF reading once, mostly using one brush set. Turned out to be the weaker maybe, got up around 22000rpm, finally connected the second brush set, really jumped to about 28000rpm, don't usually get that much on the second. Not sure where that sweetest spot is, markings not good on the motor. Still afraid of burnning it up, but seems pretty tough. pulsing seemed to be associated with end plates too loose, giving the shaft room to move back and forth. tightening things up a bit seemed to stop it.

[Ufopolitics]

Wow, I knew I should have shut off my Imhotep battery desulfater/radiant energy charger I was running on a battery.

But as I prep things, I can see my Pentagon motor was using 30ga., and it was stuffed full. So I won't get any relief for conventional amperage ranges in regards to heating. I can see that Garry's Goldmines are a size bigger than radio shack's. I haven't dug to deep and may have posted it back then, Mar 2013. But I believe the number will be about 12' of wire. At about 10'/ohm, you can see that it will be about 1.2 ohms. My ohm meters are detecting a woeful 2.3, not even close. If I hold it for a while the digital sampling seems to bring it down gradually. But I think it is 1.2 ohm thereabouts. Hate to do a rewire if I am off, so may dig thru the old posts and records on my PC a little bit.

I can see that Garry was carrying a bit more of resistance, which would explain his off sweet-spot amperage of less than an ohm compared to my 1.2 ohm machine pulling in 1.25-1.5A. The wire only calculated resistance for that config would be about 1.8 ohm. And I bet they ran cool too, even off the sweet spot. Incidentally my Quad UP-10 trifilar had a calculated 1.2 ohms and ran around 120degF also. And around 1.2-1.5 amps also! Guess it all figures.

Here is a diagram showing the timing change needed in post 7850



So @ufo, is 120degF bad for the magnets?

Taking an optimistic tact, running hot planning at conventional amperage might be the ticket if we get this Sweet Spot Drop On-Demand...

Carry on, Tesla soldiers!

Hey Sam,

First...120º F is absolutely not a risky temperature for any magnet...it is equivalent to 49º C...remember water boils at 100ºC...so that is just "warm water"...temp.

And related to your time setting above...it makes complete sense on the results...take a look below:

[IMG][/IMG]

If you move the Motor Brushes CW about 28º...you are firing P1 further away from North Stator, therefore you are approaching the 'Neutral' Zone which is right at stators gap. The Motor would be running on more Attract Mode. Amps will drop...but it should be weaker...not much, because the brushes movement was not that radical...which would be passing the Neutral Line.

Your sweet spot should be very close to that position...however, there are many things that make each set up different...like type of windings and number of turns...plus any mechanical drags...magnet strength, etc,etc.

The best way to do this adjustment is while motor is running and hooked to DMM's or Power Supply with readings...plus checking RPM's ...if your model allows that without any risks of coming apart during operation.

Believe me...it is the best way to do it and find the sweet spot easier and faster.

The opposite movement of the Brushes (CCW) will cause more Repulse Mode (closer to North-South respectively)...take a look below:

[IMG][/IMG]


Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

High pitch end noise

Wow, I knew I should have shut off my Imhotep battery desulfater/radiant energy charger I was running on a battery.

But as I prep things, I can see my Pentagon motor was using 30ga., and it was stuffed full. So I won't get any relief for conventional amperage ranges in regards to heating. I can see that Garry's Goldmines are a size bigger than radio shack's. I haven't dug to deep and may have posted it back then, Mar 2013. But I believe the number will be about 12' of wire. At about 10'/ohm, you can see that it will be about 1.2 ohms. My ohm meters are detecting a woeful 2.3, not even close. If I hold it for a while the digital sampling seems to bring it down gradually. But I think it is 1.2 ohm thereabouts. Hate to do a rewire if I am off, so may dig thru the old posts and records on my PC a little bit.

I can see that Garry was carrying a bit more of resistance, which would explain his off sweet-spot amperage of less than an ohm (EDIT: I meant to say "amp") compared to my 1.2 ohm machine pulling in 1.25-1.5A. The wire only calculated resistance for that config would be about 1.8 ohm. And I bet they ran cool too, even off the sweet spot. Incidentally my Quad UP-10 trifilar had a calculated 1.2 ohms and ran around 120degF also. And around 1.2-1.5 amps also! Guess it all figures.

Here is a diagram showing the timing change needed in post 7850



So @ufo, is 120degF bad for the magnets?

Taking an optimistic tact, running hot planning at conventional amperage might be the ticket if we get this Sweet Spot Drop On-Demand...

Carry on, Tesla soldiers!

[Ufopolitics]

EDIT PS: in reply to Ufo below, I think I need a few drops of epoxy around my bearing housing, its fit is too sloppy in the endplate seat I made and it can come very loose, and I think mostly responsible for the pulsing oscillation of the rpms, along with a less than perfect balance in the rotor...

Hey Sam,

That could be -in part- a mechanical issue like you are saying...however, mechanical errors are not normally that perfect in repetition at almost identical times...I bet your sound editor will write it as an almost perfect sinewave.

I would rather concentrate in building the All North Rotor for that casing...and now that you have the whole spec's from Garry...you could do it without ANY excuse...

Be good!

There was another high pitch noise before and after the motor connection/disconnection.

Could the varying frequency be a harmonic ?

Hey Mark,

It could be...however at disconnection I notice the little rotor kept spinning freely...so I would not consider start or end noise as due to a mechanical problem.

Also, to use sound as a tuning method, I would solid mount the motor and clear the bench. You had stuff jumping to the beat and the motor mount was mobile.

Happy Hunting

mark

Yes agree there...and even using some rubber damping mount bushings or whatever cushioning/absorbing material will help to reduce vibration...






Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

There was another high pitch noise before and after the motor connection/disconnection.

Could the varying frequency be a harmonic ?

Also, to use sound as a tuning method, I would solid mount the motor and clear the bench. You had stuff jumping to the beat and the motor mount was mobile.

Happy Hunting

mark

[GChilders]

goldmine wire lengths

@Sampojo

The goldmine motors that I wound were with AWG30 18'6'' for total length which results in 2.5 ohms resistance. When I wound the AN1, I measured 9'3" and put a tape marker like when winding the Y winding. Then without cutting the wire measured another 9'3" for the second coil. Sounds like an interesting project.

Cheers

Garry

[Ufopolitics]

I am considering reproducing the AN-1 or AN-2 winding to look for GChilders low amp readings. I got out the Ufo Pentagon Y N-S Winding motor I built to get some baseline data. I was a little disappointed at the time in the construction and had no good way to secure the endplates. It was drawing over 1.5A and was running pretty hot to the touch, but in reality was getting to only about 120degF. I never tried to tune it. Using a 12v battery, I got about 24000rpm out of it on the diagram settings.

After playing with it a little bit, I found it hangs together well and tunes easily, a good platform for the unipolar experiment. I found a nice sweet spot about 20deg off the diagram setting and got some pretty astounding results, but not so much of course on the amp side, although lower. On 12v, I got the amps down to around 1.25A and the rpm up over 30,000. Here is the pic (rpm reading is upside down):



I will extract the optimum setting off the motor and repost it on the above diagram. Thought you might like to see and hear this puppy run, so I did a video. Sorry didn't notice the dim lighting on the rpm gauge in the camera.

Sam's Pentagon Y Radio Shack after tuning

So now for a unipolar wind on a new rotor!! My thanks for all the analysis on my quad 10-pole, but I am going to post pone winding that, as that would probably take a couple man-days of effort, and time is a precious commodity for everyone. The quickest way to a low amperage reading with the highest probabilty of success would be to try to reproduce Garry's windings exactly. I only need a few hours there hopefully.

So as I think about the design for this motor, I have decided to use the normal approach and go for a finer gauge than what is on the standard edison design, so that would be 32ga. Until I get the tuning effect sweet spot, I will design the motor to run as if it was on the normal amperage range. I think it is running a little hotter than I would like now so I will look to increase the the resistance about 20%. I have to look at the ft/ohm (6?) value for 32ga, but think I can put 12' of wire per coil, except that could be 2 ohms, maybe a little high. Could possibly stay on the 30ga, as there is around 30% unfilled area of the rotor on the stock motor I could fill there, and it comes to about 9' per coil there. Hmm, 30ga might work...

If reproduction of the low amp readings becomes guaranteed, and heating in the corresponding motors fulfill expectations, i.e. they run stone-cold, well then, that opens a design possibility where these little motors could be designed a little like the forklift motors, say a much lower coil resistance around .1 ohm, not 1 ohm, if my logic is correct. This motor would of course be some kind of monster!!!! RPM??? Motor stresses could be incredible. 12v might be too much... Or never run it unloaded !!

If I can reliably get the low amp reading, my next move may be to wind my Baldor 56 frame motor 20 pole exactly like a Goldmine or RS 5-pole AN-1 or 2 winding motor to see what the amp draw looks like there. I think this design would be very seviceable in the real world. Once achieved, I would then look toward other pole winding arrangements...

Carry on, Tesla soldiers!

Nice work Sam!

One thing that I want to tell you primarily, and therefore, very important.

Replay that video again...and concentrate on the humming sound of motor...until you detect the "Sound Pattern" is making...or better expressing it...the sound pattern is repeating.

Notice a High then a Low pitch humming?...repeating itself?

If you get a mic and some sound editing software, you will be able to "see" this pattern.

Your motor is not developing a full RPM (yeah, I know, even going at those speeds!) because there is 'something' stopping it to complete its ascending cycle...so it constantly 'restarts' over and over.

It could be your timing...and since it is a N-S Config is hard to tell...where an All North Machine is easier, just tracing one magnetic pole.

Any electric motor is supposed to start in an ascending mode till reaching its max full speed...then it will seat there steadily...so it would be a firm and fixed "humming"...not going back and forth like is doing here.

This could be a reason why the amps and output voltage remain up-down, up down...etc.

Try to play with timing a bit more, retard it and then advance it...checking the Rotor Bisectors not passing your stator Bisectors.

Keep listening to the sound at all times during adjustment...it would tell you if you are going in the wrong direction by shortening the up-down humming time frequencies.

Also watch RPM's when start increasing even more...it would seem is gonna take off ground...I have taken this little things over 42,000 RPM's but, it was with the AN1.

Now related to the rest...I am looking forward to see your AN1 Replication working...so the differences could be seen then finally established.

Related to wire gauge...

Keep in mind that finer wire will do reduce amps...but the price is a demand for Higher Voltage.

Also finer wire will generate weaker magnetic fields.

Although there is a 'limit' a point that you must find where fine wire works perfectly well when you balance everything there.

On Forklift Motors, as well as Newer Golf Carts, and some late EV's...a very low resistance heavier wire is very tempting...and, yes, the final output is unpredictable until is done and tested. The advantage we all have with asymmetric is that they are constantly disconnecting, so no time to heat or burn them at very high speeds, and of course, depending on number of total independent circuits in rotor. Meaning, the more the better.


Looking forward to see next tests!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Make a new plan, Stan: Looking at Radio Shack hobby motors again

I am considering reproducing the AN-1 or AN-2 winding to look for GChilders low amp readings. I got out the Ufo Pentagon Y N-S Winding motor I built to get some baseline data. I was a little disappointed at the time in the construction and had no good way to secure the endplates. It was drawing over 1.5A and was running pretty hot to the touch, but in reality was getting to only about 120degF. I never tried to tune it. Using a 12v battery, I got about 24000rpm out of it on the diagram settings. Here is Ufo's winding diagram.



After playing with it a little bit, I found it hangs together well and tunes easily, a good platform for the unipolar experiment. I found a nice sweet spot about 20deg off the diagram setting and got some pretty astounding results, but not so much of course on the amp side, although lower. On 12v, I got the amps down to around 1.25A and the rpm up over 30,000. Here is the pic (rpm reading is upside down):



I will extract the optimum setting off the motor and repost it on the above diagram. Thought you might like to see and hear this puppy run, so I did a video. Sorry didn't notice the dim lighting on the rpm gauge in the camera.



Sam's Pentagon Y Radio Shack after tuning

So now for a unipolar wind on a new rotor!! My thanks for all the analysis on my quad 10-pole, but I am going to post pone winding that, as that would probably take a couple man-days of effort, and time is a precious commodity for everyone. The quickest way to a low amperage reading with the highest probabilty of success would be to try to reproduce Garry's windings exactly. I only need a few hours there hopefully.

So as I think about the design for this motor, I have decided to use the normal approach and go for a finer gauge than what is on the standard edison design, so that would be 32ga. Until I get the tuning effect sweet spot, I will design the motor to run as if it was on the normal amperage range. I think it is running a little hotter than I would like now so I will look to increase the the resistance about 20%. I have to look at the ft/ohm (6?) value for 32ga, but think I can put 12' of wire per coil, except that could be 2 ohms, maybe a little high. Could possibly stay on the 30ga, as there is around 30% unfilled area of the rotor on the stock motor I could fill there, and it comes to about 9' per coil there. Hmm, 30ga might work...

@Gchilders: Could you post the gauge and wire length you used for the Goldmine motors? TIA

If reproduction of the low amp readings becomes guaranteed, and heating in the corresponding motors fulfill expectations, i.e. they run stone-cold, well then, that opens a design possibility where these little motors could be designed a little like the forklift motors, say a much lower coil resistance around .1 ohm, not 1 ohm, if my logic is correct. This motor would of course be some kind of monster!!!! RPM??? Motor stresses could be incredible. 12v might be too much... Or never run it unloaded !!

If I can reliably get the low amp reading, my next move may be to wind my Baldor 56 frame motor 20 pole exactly like a Goldmine or RS 5-pole AN-1 or 2 winding motor to see what the amp draw looks like there. I think this design would be very seviceable in the real world. Once achieved, I would then look toward other pole winding arrangements...

Carry on, Tesla soldiers!


EDIT PS: in reply to Ufo below, I think I need a few drops of epoxy around my bearing housing, its fit is too sloppy in the endplate seat I made and it can come very loose, and I think mostly responsible for the pulsing oscillation of the rpms, along with a less than perfect balance in the rotor...

[Ufopolitics]

I hadn't thought about that...using the bent angle of my SC brushes to try the same thing...damn clever idea.

I was thinking about trying the mixed pairs and groups...Hmm...more projects than I can shake a stick at.

I wasn't suggesting it was going to remain as an idea. There would be little point in that.

Is there any chance this wind could be compared to the 'normal asymm' wind in a Prony test to see which Asymm Imperial comes out on top ?

Happy Hunting

mark

Make sure to check on CAD before real fire..

[HuntingRoss]

You could do it in the SC as well...making wider North's or South's poles, then leaving wider gaps to collect more at output...too bad you only have one commutator...and as a matter of fact...the way you have the four brushes at closed angles...you could switch to make it happen.

Oh!...and it is not going to be just an 'idea' after I finish winding Imperial All North Pairs...

I hadn't thought about that...using the bent angle of my SC brushes to try the same thing...damn clever idea.

I was thinking about trying the mixed pairs and groups...Hmm...more projects than I can shake a stick at.

I wasn't suggesting it was going to remain as an idea. There would be little point in that.

Is there any chance this wind could be compared to the 'normal asymm' wind in a Prony test to see which Asymm Imperial comes out on top ?

Happy Hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Looks fine as an idea.

I'm wondering if it affects the search for the perfect timing which theoretically seems to 'fit' well with a 'balanced' rotor rather than an 'asymmetrically' loaded rotor.

Mark,

This is just applying a 20º "bend" to the Brush Plane...it could be 'retracted' back any time...we only need adjustable brushes on one end.

What I do see is a drop in amp draw because we are not using two strong repulses at 180º.
We are using both magnetic worlds in one setting.

You have me wondering what happens if you wind one side 'pairs' and the other side 'groups'...I might make that a quick and dirty build one rainy day.

Happy Hunting

mark

You could do it in the SC as well...making wider North's or South's poles, then leaving wider gaps to collect more at output...too bad you only have one commutator...and as a matter of fact...the way you have the four brushes at closed angles...you could switch to make it happen.

Oh!...and it is not going to be just an 'idea' after I finish winding Imperial All North Pairs...


Keep Hunting


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Looks fine as an idea.

I'm wondering if it affects the search for the perfect timing which theoretically seems to 'fit' well with a 'balanced' rotor rather than an 'asymmetrically' loaded rotor.

You have me wondering what happens if you wind one side 'pairs' and the other side 'groups'...I might make that a quick and dirty build one rainy day.

Happy Hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Imperial Asymmetrical Fire...

Hello to All,

This is related to the Imperial P56 Body Asymmetrical, Five Poles Pairs in the All North Generation. Overlapped to create a 38.59º sweeping angle from Coils at interactions, previously shown.

I have been working on this development for a while...and it is just an 'apparently' simple adjustment of the motor brushes...in order to obtain this effect which is kind of more complicated than the mere brush adjustment.

I call it "Asymmetrical Firing Sequences", and it is about maintaining one side of Motor Brushes aligned to generate a constant Repulsion...while across 180º, the other set of Motor Brushes would NOT be aligned inline, but with certain deviation of about 20º (following rotation) in order to achieve a higher percentage of attraction on that opposite side.

One advantage from doing this...is that never, Four Pairs will be FULLY energized at 180º opposite ends of rotor simultaneously...therefore, the Amp draw will be much lower, since alternatively one side would be say P1 on Repulse...while the other end would be Two Pairs at Attract...and so on.

But... Graphics is the Universal Language to understand what I am writing here...:

[IMG][/IMG]

The initial set up above shows M1 Brushes, fully aligning P1 (blue) Comm Segment on the LEFT SIDE of shaft...while by moving M2 Brushes around 18º following rotation direction...we are contacting P16 & P17, instead of its 180º apart "Mating" Pair P15...

Then we can see the Repulse Interact Angle on Left...while we see a red arrow showing an Attraction Interact Angle on Right, almost centered at the 90º between Right Side Stator Bisectors (N2SB-S2SB).

Now, by advancing 2º...we have the CAD Diagram below:

[IMG][/IMG]

When LEFT M1 Brushes start firing P28 (following Pair in sequence) it is around 5º away from N1SB, taking it into Max Repulse Alignment...while on RIGHT M2 Brushes are firing P16-P17..and we can see the Red Arrow showing the Higher Attract Interaction Angle.

I know this set up looks very "odd" and "Asymmetric"...since the propulsion forces does not seem to be balanced or "compensated" at both ends of the shaft...but they are...it is just we are looking at two different interactions here...Attract and Repulse...which are completely opposed to each others, however, they are utilized in both sides of shaft simultaneously.

When shaft keeps rotating we have following Diagram:

[IMG][/IMG]

We notice M1 is now centered-aligned between P1 & P28...while M2 is fully aligned with P15...and P17 is OFF now.

Notice the different Repulse-Attract Interaction Angles, how they have "contracted".

Now...if We move M1 in order to align with M2, then we will have Higher Attract percentage at both sides symmetrically...

But, if we move M2 to align with M1...then we will be on Max Repulse on both sides.

And, of course this set up will definitively affect Output Gates...But mainly, the overall Motor Performance.

Hope you understand all this.

If we all remember about the way Internal Combustion Engines (ICE) Cycle related to timing the "firing cylinders"...we realize they do it "alternatively", meaning, one cylinder is fired while other one is at "exhaust" or two piston fire at a time max, depending on total number of cylinders along crankshaft...

I am trying to set a delay between firing orders here...but related to mixing magnetic interactions of different kind, and at different times...breaking the Symmetry even more...


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

So it was stated recently that the output from these motors is AC.

Don't know who stated that it was AC out...?

My appraisal of the output was pulsed DC and your comment seems to suggest there is 'snap on' and 'snap off' for the pulse.

It is a pulsed DC, however, it is not an organized or 'clean' square wave output as you get in a solid state PWM oscillator...However, it can charge Caps...Supercaps...or batteries without being filtered.

I wish I had a nifty scope to play with...maybe Santa will be good this year.

Happy Hunting

mark

Maybe...if you behave well...


Ufopolitics