My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks John!

Some notions regarding paralleled caps:
If we imagine it in slow motion we get this scenario:

• brushes making contact to coil/cap assembly
• cap sucks all current available out of the battery
• while cap charging voltage increases
• Due to the cap sucking current the current in the coil increses delayed.
• Due to rotation of the armature the time left for current increase is less than before
• As long current inceases no socillations expected.

Hint:
- Leads serve as resistance and inductance and thus reduce the charge current of rotating caps. A severe cap outside(ceramic paired with electrolitic) at motor feed will boost charging cap and get current increase in coil sooner.
- In fact we get increased energy input at our motors if using rotating caps.

• brushes opening contact
• coil current intends to continue flowing while charging cap
• due to cap sucking current -> no sparking at brushes observable
• coil boosts voltage adding to the voltage of rotating cap (fly wheel effect)
• increased voltge spike observable
• cap continuing charging by coil
• At peak voltage at cap - current reverses - oscillations might start depending on presets -> see below
  -If oscillations of tank circuit are considerably lower than traveling time inside the motor we might get very advantageous conditions.
  - Without caps we get oscillations as well but considerably higher frequency beause the system accounts for inherent interwinding cap only being minute. If that is true - depending on the exact timing we get at output brushes all energy out positive, negativ or nothing - bounce effects occure.

Hint:
- Those notions above relate to behaviour of hot electricity.

Speculations:
- I have no idea how SHE feels at oscilalting electricity. Positive pulses are told to attract HER, higher voltage spikes as well. If output brushes get positive pulses this might please HER.
- Maybe the caps being well tuned to rpm -> enable constant flow to output brushes conversely to chaotic oscillations before.

Ok. No Idea if the notions above can help. I expressed in slow motion what I feel to happen there. We need to know the corresponding actions taking place in realm of cold energy. But there my notions are non existent up to now.
Nevertheless I hope you got an idea on where to look to and what to measure.
JohnS

Hello John,


Great Hints my Dear Friend!

Well related to HER...You know I love to always "Please" HER...

Related to Caps-Coils reactions , yes they do help my other side theories...

But I will insist that you take a light, just a light, brief overview of the SEPIC DC/DC Converters...as they will help you in this final stages of combining our Motor Coils...with Caps-Diodes and FET's square pulses...same Ingredients as SEPIC...different Recipe...
Since you are a very "Open Minded" as also an Excellent Electronic Engineer...I will really enjoy to go over with you when I start displaying all this Diagrams related to SEPIC-Asymmetric Machines... However...You need to go over them... I know you told me you did not specialized in the field of switched PSU's...however, knowing you...I am sure you will get their full operating understanding faster than an Eye blinks...

SEPIC works with Dual Inductors, an AC Cap...a Diode...and FET's closing/opening L1 or Inductor 1...while L2 feeds from "the other side" of circuit.

I will be displaying pretty soon some Diagrams related to this...as some video tests, applying those concepts with Imperial...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Coupling RS motors.

Have coupled my exact replication to my double rotor replication, trying various connections Mode1, mode 2, all generator outputs in series giving about 20v on 12v input. The recommended 28ga single rotor rep as prime mover does about 21000 rpm???, pushing the double rotor on 12v. The temp gets up to at least 130 degF. Not sure if this is a steady state value, since I shut down, afraid of frying it. First time got a little puff of smoke, assume some oil from the bearings. Will this motor fry somewhere in this temp range or can it be driven a little higher? Any guesses?

The double rotor has the same gauge (30?) as the original motor. I find that unloaded it runs at 16000~rpm, close to same rpm as the unmodified motor, but generates almost 80% of the input voltage. As the 28ga motor has broken in, it started running at 21000 on 12v, and now is doing 24000! Anyone, any guesses on whether I can raise the voltage/rpm levels any higher safely? What would be an upper limit?

I was running at a 7-8v, 14000~rpm range, wired all the outputs in series back to the battery, just lowered the fractionally and increased the load, and voltage dropped from 7.3 to 7.0.

Not to sure about my white stripe being sufficient for rpm measurement, sticking a sliver only in between the teeth of a small gear.

To compare performance between the symmetrical and asym motors, I think you need to get amperage comparable. Without CEMF, the asym motor can have more turns of higher gauge and higher resistance. I wonder what that motor would perform like? I want to build one of these for a household application. I don't want more power but more battery life at the same power level there.

[4lpha1]

Finally!

So I got a package in the mail yesterday...



Used a dremel to cut the motor casings:



I cut the magnet on this one a slight bit, but it doesn't seem to have affected anything.



This thingy got shafted.



Now I have to figure out how to get the other shaft in. I was thinking I could just drill a hole slightly larger than the shaft into a piece of wood, then just tap it through with a hammer. I can't figure out how to align the commutators correctly though; they seem rather frail.

Cheers!
Cole

[IndianaBoys]

Ufopolitics RS5P Commutator Alignment Suggestion

Hi 4lpha1,

Nice to see you got your stuff so you can join in!

Turion posted this very helpful way to remove/insert the shaft:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post201830

Something we posted awhile back to help align the commutators:

Ufopolitics RS5P Commutator Alignment Suggestion
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post203441

IndianaBoys

[prochiro]

Cole
By removing the magnets first, body is easy to cut and file straight. Also when soldering the two body halves together, you do not heat the magnets and weaken them that way.
do not use split shaft, ether use the same shaft if long enough or get a longer one. Man, that is a good start there with all that equipment. All that dirt on your bench is getting into the magnets and rotor which will be bad in the end, might get some of that dirt out of the way, think surgical operation and your machine will do its job. You have made good progress for just one day, keep it up.
Dana

[qvision]

I think this motor should be good ?

Hi,

this motor has both ends easily removed :



split-ring magnet :



but 5 poles not 3 :

fivepole_zpsb58322bd.jpg Photo by deepcut71 | Photobucket



both ends removed easily :



I've had this motor for some time (12V/6W/4500RPM).

Is it a good one to rewind ? If so i will get another.


Thank you,

[sampojo]

I like that motor

Hi,

this motor has both ends easily removed :

split-ring magnet :

but 5 poles not 3 :

fivepole_zpsb58322bd.jpg Photo by deepcut71 | Photobucket



both ends removed easily :



I've had this motor for some time (12V/6W/4500RPM).

Is it a good one to rewind ? If so i will get another.


Thank you,

Hi Q,

Yes a superior motor, makes converting an RS motor a waste of time for you IMHO. bearings and high quality brushes!!! Bigger more radiant energy, etc. etc. What is its manufacturer and model? Solid motor body a plus, easier to cut and lengthen. Heavy duty means you don't need a lathe to cut it, and you can use simple hand tools. Ufo recommends slots around the brushes for cooling/viewing? And shaft looks like it could be long enough, you would be way ahead then, just need 1/2" or so for couplers and gears, etc. Useful on each end. That is no toy. It is perhaps the best motor I have seen for conversion on the small end. (IMHO)

Sampojo

[Ufopolitics]

Excellent Motor Qvision

Hi,

this motor has both ends easily removed :



split-ring magnet :



but 5 poles not 3 :

fivepole_zpsb58322bd.jpg Photo by deepcut71 | Photobucket



both ends removed easily :



I've had this motor for some time (12V/6W/4500RPM).

Is it a good one to rewind ? If so i will get another.


Thank you,

Hello Qvision,


That is a High End quality Motor, like Sampojo wrote, excellent build and bearings, great!

Just be very careful extracting bearing...try to pull it very evenly out.

If You could find-get the other exact motor...yes, it will be a great model.

Now the Five Poles comes in "Two Flavors" :

[IMG][/IMG]

1-The P5 which is Five Pairs Interlaced, where each Coil (N-S) in the Pair goes right next to each other.

[IMG][/IMG]

The MAIN PROBLEM You are going to face here is the position of brushes related to Stators...and you can NOT do it as per Diagram because of the bolts...So, either you take the wires of Pairs to another side, 90º from where they are now (where P1 Commutator Element is...MOVE IT to P5, and keep going from there, following same orientation as diagram)...or build the Dual Pentagon below.

2-The Dual Pentagons, which is a bit more complicated than P5, Coils in the Pair, are not next to each others but across at 180º...and you will need to either measure the total length of wire for each Pair, or have five spools of wire to wind it...since you will have to start by ALL South Coils FIRST, then do the North in the outer end, without splitting/cutting wires.

I noticed the problem with long bolts versus P5 (Which is simpler to make)...but I realize it will be a problem there...so, you decide which way to go...and I will help you out.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Great Tests Sampojo!

Have coupled my exact replication to my double rotor replication, trying various connections Mode1, mode 2, all generator outputs in series giving about 20v on 12v input. The recommended 28ga single rotor rep as prime mover does about 21000 rpm???, pushing the double rotor on 12v. The temp gets up to at least 130 degF. Not sure if this is a steady state value, since I shut down, afraid of frying it. First time got a little puff of smoke, assume some oil from the bearings. Will this motor fry somewhere in this temp range or can it be driven a little higher? Any guesses?

Hello Sampojo,

I can see you have built excellent toys there, you are already blowing the factory limit RPM´s of 18,000 at 18V...And you are doing 21,000 at 12V!!

Now the temperature that a motor will hold, is basically determined by the quality of the Magnetic Wire...and the Insulation Grade on Rotor...as also other factors, like commutator Mica quality, brush boards-End Caps Temp Grade etc...However, I see 130 º F not too hot though.

The double rotor has the same gauge (30?) as the original motor. I find that unloaded it runs at 16000~rpm, close to same rpm as the unmodified motor, but generates almost 80% of the input voltage. As the 28ga motor has broken in, it started running at 21000 on 12v, and now is doing 24000! Anyone, any guesses on whether I can raise the voltage/rpm levels any higher safely? What would be an upper limit?

I believe Lightworker1 took his Five Pole RS to 25,000, shown on His great video...and I consider that as a limit because of a mechanical failure could destroy little RS Motor...remember end caps are plastic...and mounted on bushings, not High Speed Bearings...

I was running at a 7-8v, 14000~rpm range, wired all the outputs in series back to the battery, just lowered the fractionally and increased the load, and voltage dropped from 7.3 to 7.0.

That's great, now, make sure you add at least one diode when retro-feeding batteries...so battery will not feed motor coils...

Not to sure about my white stripe being sufficient for rpm measurement, sticking a sliver only in between the teeth of a small gear.

See if you could paint shaft flat or semi-gloss black (before putting reflective tape) ...that will help Tach to distinguish better

To compare performance between the symmetrical and asym motors, I think you need to get amperage comparable. Without CEMF, the asym motor can have more turns of higher gauge and higher resistance. I wonder what that motor would perform like? I want to build one of these for a household application. I don't want more power but more battery life at the same power level there.

Agree completely here with you...also think, that we could replace magnets by wound stators wrapped around a steel metal lamination "T" Core, then no magnetic drag, as also your Motor has become an Asymmetrical Universal Machine...it WILL run on AC...
And if running it on DC, try pulsing both (Wound Stators-Brush-Input) in a Parallel connection.
Agree also on modifying this motors to use them in a Household appliance, or in any Battery Operated equipment, tool or Hobby Craft...then we all could see the difference...without the "Math"...but the Real Testing comparing both Worlds.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Great 4lpha!

So I got a package in the mail yesterday...



Used a dremel to cut the motor casings:



I cut the magnet on this one a slight bit, but it doesn't seem to have affected anything.



This thingy got shafted.



Now I have to figure out how to get the other shaft in. I was thinking I could just drill a hole slightly larger than the shaft into a piece of wood, then just tap it through with a hammer. I can't figure out how to align the commutators correctly though; they seem rather frail.

Cheers!
Cole

Hello 4alpha!

Great!, I am glad you've got your Machines!

Try using small long sockets to drive in commutators (Socket could not even touch commutator elements!, MUST BE right next to shaft in commutator insulation) and shafts...try pressing then either in a large Vise Grip...or a Hydraulic Press...little by little...easy!

If you are gonna tap it with wood or rubber mallet...make sure the whole core is hold tight and straight in a Vise.

It is much better and easier to find a shaft that would go "easy in"...then make some splines by slightly hitting it on top of a bench with a small chisel...say like four at 90 degrees apart...make the splines straight, parallel to shaft, NEVER Across shaft, then smooth them with a file...This way will be easier to drive commutator to match exactly the other one...as also shaft


Regards


Ufopolitics

[qvision]

Thanks for advice.

OK thank you for the advice i will order another.


All the best,

[qvision]

Hi Q,

Yes a superior motor, makes converting an RS motor a waste of time for you IMHO. bearings and high quality brushes!!! Bigger more radiant energy, etc. etc. What is its manufacturer and model? Solid motor body a plus, easier to cut and lengthen. Heavy duty means you don't need a lathe to cut it, and you can use simple hand tools. Ufo recommends slots around the brushes for cooling/viewing? And shaft looks like it could be long enough, you would be way ahead then, just need 1/2" or so for couplers and gears, etc. Useful on each end. That is no toy. It is perhaps the best motor I have seen for conversion on the small end. (IMHO)

Sampojo

Thanks sampojo, it is this motor here :

http://www.fpcmotor.com/jsp/productshow.do?id=937

It is in stock with ebay UK :

12v DC electric motor (UK SELLER) used for RC, Models, Robots, CNC, Pumps etc | eBay


All the best,

[warrensk]

16 pole modification help...

Hello UFO & All,

I have been working on getting all the stuff needed to turn a 250 watt 16 pole scooter motor into an asymmetric machine! Ive got all my parts and my wire ready to go....however the 16 pole picture on the PDF document provided seems a little short on info compared to the others. If anyone has experience with winding these, a post on where the wire is supposed to be attached in relation to poles would be great. I know they are usually offset to a small degree.

DSCN1438.jpg

Thanks all for your awesome contribution to making all these things possible.

EDIT: @UFO....does the relation of where poles are located in comparison to where the wire is attached to commutator even matter? I think not....Only thing that matters is where brushes are located related to timing right?

[laserjo]

hi warrensk what you have in your hand will never work the comutators are to close to the laminates you need at least 30mm each side for the wire.if you want to make a motor with 1 my1025 motor you will have to split laminates down to 10mm if you join two motors use one set of magnets ln the middle use 1 and a half sets of laminates. the wire you will need to wind it on and try to get near the 1 ohm mark . on the one i made i used a 23 on the small one but it gets so hot you can not touch it. good luck hope this helps dave has a video on how to wind this motor.

[prochiro]

Hi Warrensk
The relationship of where the commutator points are to the center of each coil pair DOES matter. These must be in proper position to magnets at the same time. Watch Daves video as laserjo suggested.
Dana