My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[JohnStone]

Hi Richie,
in order to face that level you mentioned there are some levels missing inbetween just now. I'll explan it:
You aim to brushless motor: ME1115 and brushless controller.
Those controllers do not support radiant as they produce AC and have reduced HV capability.
We need DC pulsed mode and utilize HV spikes in order to stirr radiant. Arduino control along monster pulser are first components being available for asymmetric motor controller - but sorry, no prduct or instructable available yet.
Just now we do not focus on brushless designs. UFO will advice if and when to go there. First aim is to prove effects in stationary setups. Improvements can be done only if we have a reference before in order to have a clue for validation.

Thus I guess you will not get short term support for your desire. But you are invited to study asymmetric motors in small scale in order to share your success and problems along that jurney. In the end you will have gained suffitient knowledge in order to devise your appication.

This is my humble opinion.
JohnS

[4lpha1]

It was very easy for me to choose the type of set up for your standard AC EV motorcycle(me1115 motor(56hp), Sevcon Gen4 84V 550A w/ Regen). The EV forums parameters are pretty much set. There is not much to deviate from that. So, compared to asymmetric motors. It's fairly simple. I know you already know that.

1,) I have to choose a motor all over again. There are so many unknown variables at this point. I have to take into to take into account, the length of that shaft, a presumable higher RPM, lower amp draw, percentage of torque...ect... those things are totally confusing for me! I think my first step is to choose a motor. One that is lightweight, compact, high horse power, capable of high RPM's and most important...cost. If anyone has a motor in mind, I open to suggestions

2.) The Pulse controllers that I've seen in the videos are huge! I need a high-quality relatively small pulse controller.

3.) Lab! I never thought about having a lab. I just wanted to build an EV motorcycle to race on a track and drive around town. But now, asymmetric motors has me so intrigue, but I think I have to make a lab

Keep it lean and green!

Richie

Hey Midaz!

I'm also researching how to build my own electric motorcycle or small vehicle, so I've run into a few of the issues you have.

I started out with a small-scale model of the technology, two 3" long motors. From there I'm going to build a 56 Frame motor from Imperial Electric, which will go into my EV. UFO says, and I believe this is just a rough estimate, that it should put out around 10hp, give or take, as well as unyielding, freight train-stopping torque through the whole RPM band.

I have much less knowledge about controllers, but from what I can tell an array of JohnStone's controllers should be equal in size to a typical one, possibly even smaller. Also, take into account the fact that you'll need far fewer batteries to equal a standard EV, especially if you can integrate an overunity system.

Check out UFO's video from much earlier in the thread in which he powers his (originally) 1hp Bosch scooter motor with a tiny RC vehicle battery. I'd link you but the video is private. Instead of having a huge battery in his scooter he now uses the battery compartment to store a ton of little ones and has much longer range.

Cheers!
Cole

[adversarius]

Hello all!

My goal is to make a selfrunner out of the toymotors.




(the motors in the picture above are symmetrical, but imagine if there were already converted to asymmetrical)


The two shafts are connected via a gear, so even they are opposite to each other they turn in the same direction.


a) When I use an asymmetrical machine as a generator, do I have two electrical outputs?


b) I would feed the electrical motor-output and ONE of the two generator-outputs back to the motor-input (via a capacitor), while using the other generator-output to light a small lamp.
It is even possible to make a selfrunner with this concept?


Do you have any further suggestions?


Regards to all,

Christian

[prochiro]

@Christian
Well now we have a goal. Thats great. Your first sub goal will be to master one of those machines. First one will take two of those motors and hopefully there are bearings in them. Once that is built, two more will be needed for the generator and there is a different winding for it. You will also need a good, vary high efficiency PWM as an Arduino and maybe the monster V5.1 board, (would be best but there is also a simpler version. You will also, when that is all together, without gears as that is too much drag, be creating a special coil for that setup only to match the rotors Ohms. The last two things you will need is time to read and not just read, but to know every bitty part about your system which will bring you to the last item, a small amount of luck. Although self runners are on everyone's mind, it is only a special few who have spent the time and money to get it done. A self runner may not be useful for exterior work as every bit of energy produced in one of this size would go back to recycle. Start by getting the first machine built and go from there. We are here to help you understand after reading threads but you must build it.
Dana

[prochiro]

Mag3

@ Cornboy 555

I have not forgotten you but this is a busy day.
I have converted all to inches as that is what I use but the numbers of wires in each groove will be what matters.

There is .75552 Sq inches in each groove.
Wire is .05 inch x .05 inch so .0025 sq inch per wire.
.75552 divided by .0025 is 302 wires can be in each groove total. This is true for inches and mm.

Now I am not sure just what coil configuration you have but if you are correct in that each groove will have only 192 wires you are lite. The best way for me to calculate is to draw the grooves out straight and then wind with a pencil to double check for no error in overlapping coils.

However you do it just make sure there is no more that 302 wires in each groove and it will fit.
Dana

PS I am so happy that you have arrived at this point.

[Midaztouch]

Hi Richie,
in order to face that level you mentioned there are some levels missing inbetween just now. I'll explan it:
You aim to brushless motor: ME1115 and brushless controller.
Those controllers do not support radiant as they produce AC and have reduced HV capability.
We need DC pulsed mode and utilize HV spikes in order to stirr radiant. Arduino control along monster pulser are first components being available for asymmetric motor controller - but sorry, no prduct or instructable available yet.
Just now we do not focus on brushless designs. UFO will advice if and when to go there. First aim is to prove effects in stationary setups. Improvements can be done only if we have a reference before in order to have a clue for validation.

Thus I guess you will not get short term support for your desire. But you are invited to study asymmetric motors in small scale in order to share your success and problems along that jurney. In the end you will have gained suffitient knowledge in order to devise your appication.

This is my humble opinion.
JohnS

John,

I understand that I must use a brushed DC motor to obtain the desired effect for radiant energy. I have to choose a brushed pm motor that is well suited for my needs. My goal is to build an electric motorcycle this year. It's almost spring! Motorcycle season is near!

There are some very capable people, from all over around the world, that are contributing to this thread. I'm confident that we can build a reliable network to support one another for all that we need to be successful. Yes, there has been some arguments and very strong language but that is understandable and has to be tolerated. Some of the biggest critics are the biggest fans! They don't want to be letdown, again. Asymmetric motors requires a lot of time and patience from each individual. In time all answers will be revealed.

John, I like that you have stepped up and became sort of a mediator between the heavyweights on this thread. Some of them have gotten upset and don't contribute anymore. Best believe that they are floating around this thread checking now and then, collecting information. We need them back on board working harmony. Thank you for making an attempt to make this thread more efficient by less friction. Keep up the good work!

Keep it lean and green

Richie

[Ufopolitics]

Hello and Welcome Midaztouch

Hi UFO and All,

I'm new to this forum. I watched UFO Politics's and other's asymmetric motor videos on YouTube. The videos lead me to this thread. I watched videos and read this thread back-and-forth for weeks. It's totally fascinating! So, I decided joined.

Hello and Welcome Midaztouch,

Glad You liked it, and joined!...

I'm an EV motorcycle enthusiast. I planned for a year to building an EV motorcycle racer this spring. I had decided on the donor frame, lipo battery brand, controller, BMS and which AC motor to use. After watching asymmetric motor videos and reading this thread, I think I have to rethink my whole plan.

Great, have you built any EV Bike before?

I'm your average preschool teacher(my job). I'm not an electrical engineer nor do I have experience building electrical motors. I gathered my knowledge from EV sites that use AC motors. So, be patient with me.

Feel free to chat me up anytime,

Richie

Many people here are not EE...and many had no experience building motors before...so do not feel bad about it...
However, like other Members here have responded to you, like John Stone and Prochiro...they are completely right...your first steps would be to build small prototypes (not really the ones you will install in an EV Bike...but much smaller.

For a Scooter/Bike you will be looking for at least a 700 to 1000 Watts Brush Motor...but you will need Two exact same types...so it WILL NOT be a cheap deal...plus you will have to get enameled (magnetic) wire...of good quality to build it..but mainly you will DO need to get familiar (the expertise/Practice) with Asymmetric motors in the "Toy Scale" First...No Matter if later on ...you will build a Four Passenger VTOL Craft...still, you DO need to start from..."Pre-School"...

Unfortunately, this is not like an EV Forum...where they lead you to the right component...then you "Pay Pal" for it...and great!, you've got it...and all you need to do is put it together...like a Kit Assembly...sorry about it, but this is a Thread about a Scientific Development and Research...and NONE of the "Main Components" here, you could go out and just buy it at a convenient store...

I am a Bike Fan also...as EV's...and more... (I have an "Xtreme Green- X Rider" Bike that could do 65 MPH)...and unfortunately, I had to put them on a side...to do Lab Work...

That X Bike goes for 9000 USD...A Customer gave it to me because He had problems with the Dealer...it is a piece of Sh**t...and it does not have a KILL Switch rated for the operating Amperage or above...so accidents DO Happen here...and basically if they all belong to the Symmetry World...where short circuiting is 100% of the operating time.

That's why We all do Lab work before testing on a Vehicle...and "IF You Do"...You MUST have very easy access to a Kill Switch...because the Transistors in charge to Pulse the speed controlling..normally "go" (say bye) by shorting out its legs...and that means like stepping on a Full Throttle without brakes that will stop it...and that's not good.

All Asymmetrical Motors are MUCH Stronger than Symmetrical ones...that will simply burnt out and stop...Asymmetrical Motors could keep running even with many coils burnt within its rotor core...so, they are even more dangerous if...not done properly.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Good!...Great!

Thanks for the kind words, Dana! It's certainly been a good learning experience, especially since I haven't done much hands-on work before. Education now is so theoretical, this change has been great.

It's running cool, calm and collected at a fair clip. Impossible to stop; it's like a freight train.

To put things into skiing terms, I couldn't be more stoked.

Hello 4lpha,


I am very glad you've got it right now!

So, you see now that I was right...that you needed to check again and again...because this Motors do NOT "normally" get hot...
And They DO run very strong...and also very fast...right?

Now to wire the second one properly.

@UFO: Any idea what kind of capacitance I'd need for a face-to-face, self-running pair? I've got some 330uF, 160V caps as well as a bunch of others.

Cheers!
Cole

4lpha...you just "did it" and want a self runner already?......easy man...easy!

Want a self runner?...Have some Ultra Caps?...used them...they will keep it running...

You will have to calculate which capacitance is right based on your coils spec's...

Do something...get one of those Small AC Hand Drills...like a Dremel or Ryobi...that shows the RPM's in a digital screen...while you raise the Pot...and attach your motor shaft to the Chuck like it would be a drill bit...then see how much total voltage it generates when connecting In-Out in series...
This small test will tell you what RPM's Max/Min you will be generating a V Min-V Max...Then check what speed it will reach with a Voltage Battery pack below the Generating side...

Make another test adding an electrical load to generator while driving it with the drill...check amperage out...

And so on...

Example...If you get out 70 Volts at 20,000...with the drill running it as a Generator...and then you could reach 25,000 with 24 Volts as Motor...then you could go from there...build second one exactly as your first one...


Regards and Congratulations!


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Just do...exactly...as Prochiro (Dana) responded...

Hello all!

My goal is to make a selfrunner out of the toymotors.




(the motors in the picture above are symmetrical, but imagine if there were already converted to asymmetrical)


The two shafts are connected via a gear, so even they are opposite to each other they turn in the same direction.


a) When I use an asymmetrical machine as a generator, do I have two electrical outputs?


b) I would feed the electrical motor-output and ONE of the two generator-outputs back to the motor-input (via a capacitor), while using the other generator-output to light a small lamp.
It is even possible to make a selfrunner with this concept?


Do you have any further suggestions?


Regards to all,

Christian

Hello Adversarius,


Just do...exactly...as Member Prochiro (Dana) responded in Post 4115...

Prochiro have the experience and mastery of this Machines...He is sending you to the very right path...as also John Stone does.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

I believe you will be fine...

Hello UFO and all, i have all necessary materials now to get on with rotor on MAG3, and would like someone to double check me on winding wire quantities, if you would be so kind, i would be sad indeed if i reached the 36th pole and couldn't fit enough wire in.

@ DANA, you gave me a simple way to work out wire to fit in rotor, thanks, i have worked it out based on your method,and came up with the following, it would be great if you could spare enough time to ckeck me.

The wire i have is 1.18mm copper and with insulation it measures 1.25 OD.

The slot dimentions, with the beautifull wooden slot sticks i have, are, 3.0mm at bottom, 10mm at top, and 49mm long, i have allowed for slot paper of 10 thou thick in those dimentions.

Each slot has 4 coil halves in it.

I came up with 48 turns/coil half, or 96 turns/coil pair.

Resistance wise i make it about 0.85 ohm / pair.

The best i can make out is about an average of .520mt/ turn.

Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.

Regards Cornboy.

Hello Cornboy,


I believe you will be just fine...

And after reading Dana's Post...even more sure off...


Now take a review of My Wiring Imperial first part tutorial...see the "Eye Calculation/Judgement Call" I make when I do it first with 16 gauge...

There are many "issues" that could not be just Math Calculated...but by making it for real...it depends on your winding...your pulls, your handling the wires...as also the way they "adjust" between them with the air gap between...

However, you will get an idea...if all four halves will fit by just adding two halves in the first pair slot, when you do P1...

Regards, and I am also very glad you are already in the winding process...




Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

To be sure, to be sure.

Thanks DANA for your working out, i really appreciate your help, also thanks for your confidence in me UFO.

I asked in advance about the wiring, am nearly finished rounding all sharp edges before epoxy coat, what a mission!

I have decided, because there is some variables involved with this rotor ( lams not perfectly lined up, unknown epoxy thickness, apprentice rotor winder.), and i only want to wind it once!

What i will do is play it safe and cut 300 odd short pieces of the winding wire and do a trial fitting in an average slot that has been epoxied and fitted with slot paper.

I know this sounds a little wastefull, but my partner can use it in her kiln for pottery effects.

Thanks for all your support guys.

Warm regards Cornboy.

[4lpha1]

Hello 4lpha,
4lpha...you just "did it" and want a self runner already?......easy man...easy!

Want a self runner?...Have some Ultra Caps?...used them...they will keep it running...

You will have to calculate which capacitance is right based on your coils spec's...

Do something...get one of those Small AC Hand Drills...like a Dremel or Ryobi...that shows the RPM's in a digital screen...while you raise the Pot...and attach your motor shaft to the Chuck like it would be a drill bit...then see how much total voltage it generates when connecting In-Out in series...
This small test will tell you what RPM's Max/Min you will be generating a V Min-V Max...Then check what speed it will reach with a Voltage Battery pack below the Generating side...

Make another test adding an electrical load to generator while driving it with the drill...check amperage out...

And so on...

Example...If you get out 70 Volts at 20,000...with the drill running it as a Generator...and then you could reach 25,000 with 24 Volts as Motor...then you could go from there...build second one exactly as your first one...


Regards and Congratulations!


Ufopolitics

As fun as it is building little motors like this, I'll be happy when I can move onto something more substantial. This is the setup I've made to run them face-to-face. Running them off of the ~12 volt input battery shown I get around ~9V off of each output for a total of ~27V.



The capacitor bank I made:



The capacitors are each 390uF, 200V for a total of 1.56mF. I think I need a few more Farads before I'll be able to self-run them. The white switch controls the battery input, the black one controls the caps. The caps are wired in parallel between the generator and motor sides, but as you implied I'll probably need a bit more capacitance.

I'm unsure of how to calculate the capacitance needed, though. I know how to calculate the power required to run the motor, and how to calculate the power stored in a capacitor, but I don't know if I have equipment that can accurately measure pulsed DC.

I'd imagine finding a capacitor with 2-3X the power storage needed to run the motors would be a good start, and would give me a good margin to account for any discrepancies.

New toys, three universal and one permanent magnet. The ones on the ends are from Braun hand blenders, I think the middle ones may be from small vacuum cleaners.



@UFO, would you mind re-posting the self-running circuit diagram you made up a while ago? I went through about forty pages but couldn't find it.

Cheers!
Cole

[Cornboy 555]

Bit a filing to do.

[IMG][/IMG]


[IMG][/IMG]

Man iv'e got a lot of filing and grinding to do!

This epoxy coating was just to bind the laminations together, and the whole thing feels really stable now.

I made a bath that neatly fitted rotor and suspended the rotor on bearings on ends of shaft, and rotated it slowly to cover the whole thing, and when epoxy started to go off slightly i set it on end over drain trough to drain.

Had to watch bath time because epoxy work time is only 5 minutes.

Have a build up on one end to take care of, another mission coming up, i feel.

One unusual thing with this rotor is that when you touch it with anything it Ring's like a tuning fork, i thought it was just something that was because of unbound laminations, but it still does the same after epoxying.

Well better get on with it.

Regards Cornboy.

[4lpha1]

Calculations

At 11V in, current is 15mA. Output is 8.5V across my capacitor bank.

Power in: 15mA*11V = 0.165W

Power stored in caps: (0.5)(V^2)(C) = 0.5*8.5^2*1.5mF = 0.056W.

Caps needed: 0.5W (3X the power needed to run the motor at 11V)

0.5W = 0.5CV^2

C = 0.013F = 13mF

So I need a 13 milliFarad capacitor, or something around that size. Does that sound right?

Something like this?

Cheers!
Cole

[Midaztouch]

Hey Midaz!

I'm also researching how to build my own electric motorcycle or small vehicle, so I've run into a few of the issues you have.

I started out with a small-scale model of the technology, two 3" long motors. From there I'm going to build a 56 Frame motor from Imperial Electric, which will go into my EV. UFO says, and I believe this is just a rough estimate, that it should put out around 10hp, give or take, as well as unyielding, freight train-stopping torque through the whole RPM band.

I have much less knowledge about controllers, but from what I can tell an array of JohnStone's controllers should be equal in size to a typical one, possibly even smaller. Also, take into account the fact that you'll need far fewer batteries to equal a standard EV, especially if you can integrate an overunity system.

Check out UFO's video from much earlier in the thread in which he powers his (originally) 1hp Bosch scooter motor with a tiny RC vehicle battery. I'd link you but the video is private. Instead of having a huge battery in his scooter he now uses the battery compartment to store a ton of little ones and has much longer range.

Cheers!
Cole

Cole,

Nice to meet you. EVs are real cool! I try to keep my carbon footprint as small as I can, that's why I decided to build an EV motorcycle. Also EV motorcycle racing isn't very serious yet. There is much room for improvement but its progressing very quickly. I want to enjoy that before it gets serious

I know that Society will find some reason to go to war when we dont need oil anymore but at least we will have clean air and fresh drinking water again. We have polluted Mother Earth so bad, that we have created global warming. It's like or planet has high blood pressure. It can't control its body temperature. So we get severe floods, heat waves, typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes, snow storms...

Maybe it's time for asymmetric motors to have a chance. Not only do we need it for the EV world(transportation) but most importantly, we need it for our planet's health.

Keep it lean and Green,

Richie