My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

@UFO
I believe that the second gate you are talking about for a diode is between P15 and pulse, correct? Will also start at 12 volts and work up again. Should be sometime tomorrow nite or early Tuesday I hope.
Dana

Dana,

Yes, that Diode would be to protect the FET's (and You must always use it)...I was talking about another diode from P1 to P8, as another one from P1 to P22. Like I have displayed before with the Bridge Rectifier.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Donald Haas]

Hello All @UFO @ Cornboy
I have been thinking about that dead time also. At first I thought we could do it with a second or as UFO said, four, monster circuits. That Arduino's are capable of producing a delayed cycle but that will not solve the problem I believe. The reason it will not do it is because the timing of rotor commutator contact time is much larger than frequency on time in a relative sense. If we take the idea of changing the duty cycle between the two there may be some benefit but more likely a push pull, maybe.

I am short of heat sinks now but will try to get some more and put a second Monster on the second line. what I am thinking is that by having both at same frequency but altering duty cycle we may have the same effect, in terms of volume of amps, as shortening or offsetting a brush. I am also thinking that when you say move two brushes, you are not talking about two brushes as on P8, both ends, but are talking about at the rear of P8 and P22. I may have some numbers messed up here but you get what I am (thinking). I am later today going to raise the voltage step by step on the Imperial up to 84 volts, but if you get higher amps (I run at 5 amps on 48v and you get 10 amps at 60v) at
higher volts, we may be heading back to vary high amps with the added baggage of a lot of batteries.
All this is just my thinking at this point and is not proven fact....

Dana

Hi All,

Is a slip ring application, switched by arduino or IR timing wheel a possibility.
One could place on time of desirable length and angle.

bro d

[Cornboy 555]

Oh, OH, thinking again.

Hello UFO, JS, DANA and all, would it be preferable to have a single hard pulse per commutator segment,( coil-pair ), always locked into motor RPM, that you could adjust for on time and also firing sequence?

I may be off track here, but to me it seems counter productive to the rotational inertia to have multiple firings per comm segment. In other words, the coil pair is turning ON then OFF with field starting to think about collapsing, and then turned On again and re energised a number of times before disconnecting from commutator segment. Maybe a waste of valuable incoming current and switching our monsters more than needed.


Please let me know if you think this would be a better option Guys, because i have some ideas, if you think it is.

Warm Regards Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

The Sequencing of Pairs...

Hello All @UFO @ Cornboy
I have been thinking about that dead time also. At first I thought we could do it with a second or as UFO said, four, monster circuits. That Arduino's are capable of producing a delayed cycle but that will not solve the problem I believe. The reason it will not do it is because the timing of rotor commutator contact time is much larger than frequency on time in a relative sense. If we take the idea of changing the duty cycle between the two there may be some benefit but more likely a push pull, maybe.

Hello Dana, Hello Donald Haas, Hello John Stone, hello to All,

It seems there is a bit of confusion when we speak about the off cycle times or dead times...
First, Dana you wrote (I Outlined your words above)

The reason it will not do it is because the timing of rotor commutator contact time is much larger than frequency on time in a relative sense

You are saying that because you are "seeing" the On/Off between Two Gates...and it is NOT like that...
As We turn On/Off two consecutive Gates...we are turning On/Off ONLY the sequential Pairs in that section of that quarter of quadrant, for example:

We have been choosing the starting sequences or "Gates" as per the way we wound machine...Example, with Imperial: P1, P8, P15 and P22...Now, if We start pulsing right at P1 and P8 ...we are starting a race/sequence that at Gate P1 pulses P1, at gate P8 pulses P8...Then, next pulse will turn on P2 at Gate P1 and P9 at Gate P8...and so on, and this is considering a progressive rotation from P1 to P28 to explain it simple.
Now, IF there is a "delay"between pulses...when we pulse P1<with Delay> the delayed pulse will contact P9 at Gate P8...and NOT P8 like <no delay> will deliver.

Let's see the whole Quadrant of the Four Gates with delay that would represent "jumping" just one commutator element (two in Imperial)of all Gates

We send that Delayed Pulse to P1 , let's assume Pair P1 is EXACTLY at contact, <Rotation occurs>Pulse to P8 pulses P9...Pulse on Gate P15 pulses P17 (Two delay times)...and finally Gate P22 pulses P25 (Three delayed times by now).

What the delay is doing is "grabbing" the Pair behind the normal sequence/no delay would do, that creates a Pull from each Gate to a further in Pair.

So, the "contact times" are referred to whatever Pair is present at each gate, and the succession of Pairs behind it will establish the pulsing on the Quadrant ...And that is where I want you guys to focus...on the Four "Half Circumferences" that are overlapping in the 360 total Quadrant....please "see them in motion" when speed is high...

[IMG][/IMG]


The "No Delay" diagram on left, is the way we have been pulsing motor when pulsing two gates with same signal..or when we feed it linear.

At High Speeds is when this gets to become important...when the acceleration and tangential forces become greater, and as the rotor mass inertia forces increase...then we are actually "braking/holding" the rotor if we do not apply the delay times...


PLEASE, Realize we are talking here about Imperial Motor, where each Pair grabs 14 poles of the total 28, creating the Four Overlapped "Half Circumferences" that are pictured in Diagram.


I hope you guys could "see" what I meant...what I have "tried" to explain here...

Thanks and Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Say What?

Hey UFO, i know it will sink in after a while, But uhhhh, at the moment my head hurts!

[Ufopolitics]

Does it really?

Hey UFO, i know it will sink in after a while, But uhhhh, at the moment my head hurts!

Hello Cornboy,

Well, if it hurts now......I wonder when I upload your MAG 3 with SIX Pulses...plus the stators sequencing...


Have handy some strong Headache Pain Killers
...


Regards friend


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Hmmm.

Hello Cornboy,

Well, if it hurts now......I wonder when I upload your MAG 3 with SIX Pulses...plus the stators sequencing...


Have handy some strong Headache Pain Killers
...


Regards friend


Ufopolitics

Will Red Wine do?

Thanks Friend.

[Cornboy 555]

Hmmm2.

Hello UFO, it looks a lot like when you advance the ign timing on an old points ignition gas guzler, by hand when the thing is running, and finding the sweet spot.

Regards Matey, Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

Machine And Signals

Hello to All,



Mainly this applies to Imperial Asymmetrical Conversion, however, it will also "fit" any P Series, driven by Four Brush/Four Stators Machines.

Here is a Diagram showing the Electronic Pulses/Signal Display, and the Effect in the Machine...Now, the Dead Times (DT) are "flexible"...meaning we could play with them in order to find (yes Cornboy) a "Sweet Spot" for the operation taking place. Something like an Electronic Timing Control.

But You must realize, this Electronic Timing will NOT affect at ALL, the "Physical Bisectors Timing" we have already adjusted our Brushes- Pairs to be fired, related to Stators.

This Delay Effect takes place ONLY in the Rotor Mass, by controlling Pairs to be fired in advance or delayed considering a reference Starting point as Gate 1.

Imperial has 28 Poles Rotor and We have wound 28 Pairs of Coils (P28)...So, there are Four Groups of Seven Pairs in total.

First Group from P1 to P7
Second Group from P8 to P14
Third Group from P15 to P21
Fourth Group from P22 to P28

And this Four Groups do NOT divide Quadrant "perfectly" like shown in graphic...in a nice Half Circumference of 180º...nope, they will take more than that, each Group of seven Pairs will take 20 Poles , leaving just Eight poles free, so their pattern is more like a "C", where they overlap in the final shape of a Spiral.

I could draw hundreds of Diagrams , displaying different positioning/adjusting of DT related to P1 as reference...We could set it "backwards" or ahead in time like here...

We could also program DT to be "in crescendo" from smaller times to bigger...or opposite...and all settings would create a different rotational effect in Machine.

But I really do not want that...don't want to complicate it...but to get where we need to go...to the desired Torque, Speed and "Hammering Effect" to finalize this "Stage"...of turning successfully Mecc Alte....that's all...


Regards to All



Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Yes, pretty similar...

Hello UFO, it looks a lot like when you advance the ign timing on an old points ignition gas guzler, by hand when the thing is running, and finding the sweet spot.

Regards Matey, Cornboy.

Hello Cornboy,


Yes, definitively very similar, however, like I mentioned in the above post...it will not affect the way you have already set your timing, related to firing Pairs / Stators Bisectors.

This Rotors are NOT balanced by the way we wind them...Who could balance a Spiral that grows from small to huge final stages?
It will take a lot of weights from "Inside Out" to create an "Opposite Turning Spiral of counter weights"...and we definitively do not want that...we will kill the "Hammering Effect"...BOOM!

The sweet spot, would be the one that delivers the right tuning for Rotor to discharge evenly, at a timed/sequenced ratio...that Hammering from the heavier rotor side...

Think about the Pendulum Effect...figure a heavy weight hanging at the end of pendulum arm, it will take a lot of force to get it moving, swinging...but once you've got it traveling the desired distance...you do not need to apply the same force...but just a bit of impulse...HOWEVER, You MUST WAIT for the PERFECT Timing to apply that small push...You can NEVER Fight it when it is bringing its own force...you must wait for that "momentum" to apply it...


Something very similar applies here my friend...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Bla Bla

Packing eggs, late, pretty sure i am on the same wavelength, listening to Alabama Shakes on JJJ LIVE MAAAN if they are from Your territory, well, all is well with with the WORLD. But I am well aware that all is not/ OFF COURSE.

[prochiro]

@ JohnStone
There ya go. Now we can see the dead zone or delay. Looks like I need to make one more Monster circuit and with each one only hitting one coil set, I feel more at ease with using only two fets per setup. I am also looking into this offet square wave thing for Arduino.
Dana

[prochiro]

@ JohnStone
One Arduino with a pot will do it. Pot signals delay period for all four lines. On a mega it will do 10 different cycle timmings.
The post below may be helpful.

10 Simultaneous PWM Signals in Offset - Arduino Forum
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

Material Already Disclosed...

@ JohnStone
There ya go. Now we can see the dead zone or delay. Looks like I need to make one more Monster circuit and with each one only hitting one coil set, I feel more at ease with using only two fets per setup. I am also looking into this offet square wave thing for Arduino.
Dana

Hello Dana,

I have already displayed this set up related to a "Quad Chanel Driver" in a previous Post here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post221032

And since then We have been talking to John Stone and Niko about making this Modules...and what platform to use as a Microprocessor...

Post is back from January 8 2013...




Regards


Ufopolitics

[JohnStone]

Pulse sequence: Ah!! Thanks a lot. That makes things clear - but more complicated.

1. Nico's generator was optimized in order to get the maximum freqency out of Arduino along variable duty cycle. His approach is very smart but will not allow for several delayed phases at same time.

2. Fortunately we seem not to use frequency fo several hundred KHz. Hence we can choose another approach with more grades of freedom.

3. Unfortunately we talk here of pulses being generate synchronously to the revolutions of the armature. Hence another complication by necessity of taking sync pulses from shaft. No free running generator! This step was expected and now is an unrgent need. Some initial info on these facts along Arduino.

4. The delay might not be constant but might vary along revolution speed.

Please confirm if the notions above are correct. I will dig into matters.
JS