My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Cornboy 555]

It's Dead Time Now.

Thanks for your great work, DANA, i am starting to get a fuzzy picture of what UFO is trying to show us now, about dead time.

It will be incredibley interesting adapting this method of pulsing to a 36 pole with wound stators, in sequence with the rotor.

I am making slow progress on my build as farm demands most of my time for a month or so, planting crops, etc, to pay the bills.

Thanks Again,

Regards Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

Yes You are there...

Hello UFO
I have been messing around with the Arduino and found that it is vary easy to offset four or six pulses. First, let me describe what this does as I am not totally sure if this is what you want. I have four different pulses going off, one at a time, so that no two are on at the same time. My machine likes 30Hz so lets use that for starters but it is easily adjustable. For each one of those Hz, all four fire in turn, one at a time thus hitting all four inputs with a 25% duty cycle but actually hitting the machine 100% of the time somewhere. This should give us the 1/4 amp draw of doing all four at the same time but actually doing the same thing as all four full tilt. This would be 120 hits pf power instead of 30 and at 1/4 amps of the 30.
Is this what you are talking about. This actually works up to 14KHz if you want. One arduino will power four Monsters in there own order just the same.

Fire One -pause- fire Two -pause- fire Three -pause- Fire four -restart

It is actually in controlling this pause that you control the frequency. Please let me know if I am close or not.
Dana

Hello Dana!

Yes, that IS EXACTLY what I meant!
As a matter of fact you brought me an example that can not be misunderstood...(I guess it is because the "Fire"...Pause...fire...etc...
Ok, yes you've got it right...figure a Machine Gun...You can only get same kind of bullets in that Magazine..say "30/30" (for 30Hz)...so whenever you press that trigger, no matter how the set up is...You will NEVER be able to fire two bullets at the same exact time through same Barrel...

So figure that bullets, as the mechanisms that trigger them with same intensity, same amount of powder in each...will always "fire" exactly the same power...but separated by an "off time"...just to prevent two bullets to get stocked within barrel...
Now, figure your target is a Free Rotating Wheel...with steel spoons set apart by...say 90º ...so Wheel got four total spoons..so you hit first spoon...causing it to spin...and you do not shoot again...till you have next spoon in your laser aim....so you leave a dead time for next spoon to get in your range...

For each one of those Hz, all four fire in turn, one at a time thus hitting all four inputs with a 25% duty cycle but actually hitting the machine 100% of the time somewhere. This should give us the 1/4 amp draw of doing all four at the same time but actually doing the same thing as all four full tilt. This would be 120 hits of power instead of 30 and at 1/4 amps of the 30.

Yessss Sir!...You got the idea!...

Absolutely right...we will be hitting those "spoons" just at the right time and place...and it gets better...because, the first hits, that will fight/brake the rotor mass inertia...that will take the Higher Power...however, once wheel is spinning faster...and faster...we will just need to "decrease" the firing time sequencing (spread offset times)...then decrease off time again when a heavier load from generator gets on...

It is actually in controlling this pause that you control the frequency.

Yes!!...That is a MUCH Cheaper way to drive it...pausing the firing at longer times between them will definitively slow down machine...as opposite will accelerate it. And of Course, like you have said..."My Machine likes 30 Hz"...so finding a "suitable/relaxed" frequency and duty cycle, as also "inexpensive"..that allows every time you fire to achieve the desire result...then we are on track.

Dana...simply, what we are doing here is "playing" with the Rotor Mass Inertia, by hitting at the right "take off Angle/Points"...to "Wham Bang" or decelerate rotor...kind of "Same Language" Generator Heads "Speak" when you add a big load......except that Generator gives just One Big Shot of braking force...while we use an increasing Machine Gun heavy duty shooting "in crescendo".

That is grreat news you could play with those offset times in Arduino codes...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Enhanced Pentagons...

Struggling mightily on my adustable brush plate design, basic engineering probs. If a hole is too big the brush plate will be too weak... Tapping 4-40 holes in steel end plate, of course broke the tap Had to laminate slots with aluminum, just don't think there is enough plastic material there for any strength. so it goes. Get a new tap tomorrow. Got put the basic slots into the motor body, a 1/8" aluminum tube and cut my magnets yet too.

So Ufo, I haven't even started winding. I of course thank you for the Quad pentagon, for a 4 stator motor, that you made for me a couple weeks ago. Now on you enhanced pentagons winding in post 4484,
I notice it uses just a 2-stator design. Do you believe it would be as good a performer as previous 4-stator designs?

Hello Sampojo,

I set it first as the simplest model...like I like to do it...
Of course a Four Stator will be stronger...
If you take a closer look at that "Enhanced Penta"...ALL I did was to grab three poles instead of One for the South Poles (and this is also relative...you could always swap magnetic poles)...like it used to be originally...

I have not taken this design into a bigger pole machine...but I figure that it will work fine for all multiple of five...as long as it allows you to expand the south (I refer to the South...cause it was the one we left as the smaller part of the "Y" in all diagrams...) to a quarter of quadrant instead of 180º like I did with just two stators.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Quoting/Criticizing Myself here

Hello to All,

In the beginning of this Thread, I have disclosed two Methods to wind the Five Poles (as any multiple of five thereafter), it was one of my first Models...the small Radio Shack 256 Body as any other 5 pole embodiment, like the Johnson Motors used on many Power Tools, or the 550 Body used on many RC Applications...I have found both windings (the P Series and the Pentagons)...have different Attributes.

The P5 (Also applicable to all the "P Series") is a great machine, it can reach very high speeds...however, I understand, as many of you have tested...its Amperage draw is pretty high, and only through external connections that I have also displayed here...we can lower their current consumption.

The Dual Pentagon, as the Quad Penta, also applicable to 10 and 20 poles...have a great torque...and lower amp draw...but the speed is not as high...as the P Series.

In my past studies...I have found that opposite Coils...where their Axis/Bisectors, coincide at 180º, result in a Zero Magnetic Field strength...they Cancel Each others forces completely....I have also disclosed this magnetic property as a "Not to do" here...

However, if we can manage in our design...to avoid that "front end collision" of opposite flux flow, by diverging its center axis, even by a "few degrees"...then we have a winner ...they do not cancel each others...but assist the strength. And we get as a result...The advantages of "Both Worlds"...very fast motors...very high torque...excellent generators...but the best part...very, very low Amperage draw...

[IMG][/IMG]

This Design originated from the "Dual Pentagon" Pattern...the only difference is that instead of the South Coils to grab One Pole...it wraps around Three poles...this new Coil Pattern creates a much wider "Throw Out Angle"(Speed Increase)...as it "expands" their bisector area of action, resulting in a Higher Torque.

[IMG][/IMG]

The Winding Specifications, related to Wire Gauge/Turns/Resistance... are also different than previously exposed methods here...

We can use much finer wire, greater than 1.0 Ohm per Pair-Coils...and still achieve a strong magnetic field.

And...To obtain even more enhanced results...We wind them as We do ONE COIL...meaning, we run the Turns from One Section of poles to the other, then back...just like we make a straight coil in a piece of Tubing (from top to bottom...then from bottom to top), except we are wrapping from the three pole side to the two pole side located at the opposite end...or in layers/back and forth...previously we were winding first the whole S1...then with just one wire we transfer/bridge to start the winding of N1...

Example: Say, we are winding a Pair with a Total of 60 Turns, meaning 30 turns on South Coil...and 30 Turns on North Coil...So far this is how we have been doing it on all the armatures...Now, we do ten turns on South>go to> North Poles and wind ten turns>go back to>South Coil and do ten more turns>go to>North Coil and ten more...and so on...the winding direction will remain as it always have been.

This winding pattern, where both coils are NOT separated by JUST a thin piece of wire to wind the other Pole...but, instead as a Solid Coil...makes a huge difference my friends...you will see it...


I will be uploading Testing Videos on this New Pattern very soon...

This...will increase, considerably...the Attributes of our Machines...as this Patterns could be expanded...not only to the Five Poles...or Multiples of Five...but also to other Structures...still working on that "part"...


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

Hello Again,

PLEASE, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE HERE!!

Please do NOT do that winding (Explanation Marked in Red Bold Letters above)...going back and forth, till we try here and discover the right way to do it...or it could cause a complete loss of control of Output through Input...as showing very little at Output Gates.

I have found it has to do with the way you make the back-forth sequences, related to other "induced" coils in the near range.

It causes rotor to overheat...rotation/speed/torque will not be affected though...


SO, Please whenever doing this...do it the "Old Fashion"...Do a whole Coil in the Pair first...then do the Second one, like we've been doing so far.




Regards


Ufopolitics

[prochiro]

HELLO UFO
The off times are ether adjustable by one small pot for infinite control or the push button idea of Nico. Which one do you like or maybe I should make a program for each method so users can choose. Yea, that is what I will do. Thanks
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

Like Knobs...

HELLO UFO
The off times are ether adjustable by one small pot for infinite control or the push button idea of Nico. Which one do you like or maybe I should make a program for each method so users can choose. Yea, that is what I will do. Thanks
Dana

Hello Dana,

I particularly like the Knob/Dial type...I believe is a much faster response than pressing buttons...However...remember we are shutting to have "automatic response" in a near future...so we will let machines "talk"...so whatever is easier to take into this future set up...be welcome.

Yes, making the program (without crashing please... ...just kidding) with both options is excellent!...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Enhanced Quad Penta...?

@ UFO,

I really like the new design...Wondering if it can be applied to a 20 pole or if I should stick to the torque master design. Currently trying to apply these motors as generators for running a tesla style oscillator in the form of a rodin coil. Been using the equations for resonance and have been getting some awesome results.

Warrensk

Hello Warrensk,


Idk...I have to do that...set a Quad Penta ...Enhanced...don't know when...but I will soon let you know.

I tell you that this method is superior than the P Series...BUT, it will not work with even numbers...like Imperial...I tried already in CAD...don't work...
But...I believe "it should" work with divisible s of five...like 20.

The thing is...center coils axis -in Pair- MUST NEVER BE intersecting within same 180º line with another pair ANYWHERE in the 360º, no matter if idling...or firing...never...or they will cancel.

We will find a way to get to everyone ...am sure off...by fooling with "Magnetic Geometry"...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

comprehension prob on Enh. Pent winding

Hi UFO, To wind a South pole, I can't see how you could grab 3 pole on a 5-pole motor without the whole coil collapsing down onto the shaft or commutator? Do you send the wire around the middle pole, curl it back around then jump out to the end pole, wrap it same direction then come back to the middle one, and wrap it the same direction, essentially wrapping 3 sub-coils? Would it have better generator characteristics too?

[Ufopolitics]

One South, Three Poles..

Hi UFO, To wind a South pole, I can't see how you could grab 3 pole on a 5-pole motor without the whole coil collapsing down onto the shaft or commutator? Do you send the wire around the middle pole, curl it back around then jump out to the end pole, wrap it same direction then come back to the middle one, and wrap it the same direction, essentially wrapping 3 sub-coils? Would it have better generator characteristics too?

Nope...if you fraction the South into three coils per pole...it will be a good generator...but will slow down motor considerably....and am looking for speed here...

Yes I go around shaft...well, it is the commutator "neck"...which is insulation....wrapping all three poles...and as you go further...you have to keep pressing prior coils to make room...and not to stack up wire closer to commutator hooks.

And, important, you do NOT do it like the original dual penta...meaning all south first...NOPE, you do straight, North-South...then end at comm element.

And, yes...you are winding straight /180º coils here...meaning "no turns"...so it will be much less confusing...you just follow same, exact winding sense-direction...just like doing one straight coil...but fragmented in two.

You should try making first-before going to a 20 poles- a small RS five poles...with 32 (awg) gauge...40 turns per coil Pair total=80 turns...then see and learn...and better...test it......and do not forget to measure Amps!

Your resistance should be around 3.2-3.5 ohms per Pair...NO MORE!

Regards


Ufopolitics


Edit:

[IMG][/IMG]
Take a look at this pic...here I am winding the Second Pair (P2)/Three pole-Coil FIRST...then I do the two poles behind it.

Actually the three pole coil forms a "^" and the two pole a straight "_"...so both together make a Triangle or Pyramid...whatever you like best...

[sampojo]

arduino pulsing question for Dana

I have four different pulses going off, one at a time, so that no two are on at the same time. My machine likes 30Hz so lets use that for starters but it is easily adjustable. For each one of those Hz, all four fire in turn, one at a time thus hitting all four inputs with a 25% duty cycle but actually hitting the machine 100% of the time somewhere. This should give us the 1/4 amp draw of doing all four at the same time but actually doing the same thing as all four full tilt. This would be 120 hits pf power instead of 30 and at 1/4 amps of the 30.
Is this what you are talking about. This actually works up to 14KHz if you want. One arduino will power four Monsters in there own order just the same.

Fire One -pause- fire Two -pause- fire Three -pause- Fire four -restart

It is actually in controlling this pause that you control the frequency. Please let me know if I am close or not.
Dana

Dana, un momento por favore. ;-) (that oughta get UFO goin'!) So you can have 4 input pulses generated by your arduino setup, each coming out with its own delay. How are you using them all if the Imperial only has 2 input motor brush-pairs?

[prochiro]

Sampojo

Well yes if you go the generator method but what if all four lines are input or as per Cornboy , all six lines??? This program will do from one to six, your choice
Dana

[prochiro]

Hello All
The code below here should work on this type of setup
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/...psda8b6294.jpg

This code will do what we need but is generic as it is controlled by code. A pot can be added for dial control on the run.


Arduino code:

/*
Add 4 led's and a resistor on each and insert them into (3,10,6,11) PWM pin and then all go to ground for testing
Turns on and off each LED for 1/4 of frequency time, each cycle will do four PWM pins one time with no overlay, repeatedly.

This example code is not in the public domain.
*/

// Pin 13 has an LED connected on most Arduino boards. Do not use 13
// give PWM's a name:
int led1 = 3;
int led2 = 10;
int led3 = 6;
int led4 = 11;

int wait = 100000000; // Freq of each PWM pin --- In program mode, this is the number to change for speed control. Add a pot and
// read this number from pot for dial control.
// the setup routine runs once when you press reset:
void setup() {
// initialize all 4 digital PWM pin as an output.
pinMode(led1, OUTPUT);
pinMode(led2, OUTPUT);
pinMode(led3, OUTPUT);
pinMode(led4, OUTPUT);
}

// the loop routine runs over and over again forever:
void loop() {
digitalWrite(led1, HIGH); // turn the PWM3 on (1/4 time of total cycle)
delayMicroseconds(wait);
digitalWrite(led1, LOW);
digitalWrite(led2, HIGH); // turn the PWM10 on (1/4 time of total cycle)
delayMicroseconds(wait);
digitalWrite(led2, LOW);

digitalWrite(led3, HIGH); // turn the PWM6 on (1/4 time of total cycle)
delayMicroseconds(wait);
digitalWrite(led3, LOW);

digitalWrite(led4, HIGH); // turn the PWM11 on (1/4 time of total cycle)
delayMicroseconds(wait);
digitalWrite(led4, LOW);
}


Improvements can be added as you need. Then in place of the LED's, send output from each PWM pin to a Monster driver and feed one line of motor with each driver. Should yield 1/4 amp draw as compared from regular full drive on all lines.
Dana

[prochiro]

Hello All
Quadradelay, is four offset signals to Imperial with pot control of motor speed. Freq. from 4Hz to 236Hz and adaptable to 14KHz. Smoooooooth.

Arduino program for pot control of Quadradelay on Imperial.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qi6u61z15n...QuadBlink1.ino

Video of Arduino using LED's as output of Quadradeley.
Quadblink1 - YouTube
Dana

[Hitby13kw]

Arduino Quadblink

Hello All
Quadradelay, is four offset signals to Imperial with pot control of motor speed. Freq. from 4Hz to 236Hz and adaptable to 14KHz. Smoooooooth.

Arduino program for pot control of Quadradelay on Imperial.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qi6u61z15n...QuadBlink1.ino

Video of Arduino using LED's as output of Quadradeley.
Quadblink1 - YouTube
Dana

Dana,
Congrats on your recent success with the Imperial, leave for a few weeks and everything is new when you come back.
Many thanks for this code, added it to my dropbox to study, still trying to get up to speed with the Arduino . . . but this will help!!!
- will try to duplicate tonight.

Hitby13kw

[Cornboy 555]

Good Work.

Great stuff DANA, Thanks.

Regards Cornboy.