My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[prochiro]

Motors Ready

@Machine
Congratulations. Those numbers are identical. Make sure that when you test the monster that you have head sinks mounted on both sides of each pair. When they are running, Measured heat at the fets should not exceed 82 degrees. Yes I know that they are rated for more but, any heat over the 82 degrees indicates pending doom and it will happen fast. Within ten seconds temps can soar and fet will be weakened. It will run but only for a short time. That fet will always now be higher temp than others until it goes.
The following is my opinion and mine alone.
What you said about the 9000 RPM is funny but I hope you were joking. UFO and I have tested high speed but now looking back, that led to trouble. You just read UFO saying that the brushes are soft. The mechanical parts of the motor were not designed for even 3800. We all need to see that this is not a ski jump where we go real fast to build speed then jump into a generator. Motor running at generator recommended speed is fine and safe and quiet. As load is added the duty is increased, adding power to maintain generator speed at 3600 or so. Running higher at this time, when we know the power is there, risks coil heating, parts flying and so much more. If you just put a new HEMI in your truck the temptation to see what she will do is strong. But without having the steering and brakes installed, well that's just crazy. If you have not designed at least a basic steering system, now you must sit and only look at the truck until you get steering and brakes done. This is why I have been pressing for a PID now. We must be scientific and methodical in development and not take risks that actually do not mean anything in the end as a young driver may do (just one time). One time is all it takes to require rebuild of another motor. Machine, if you do try super high speed, I would get there, measure, and get out of there fast.
Congratulations again,
Dana

[machinealive]

@midaztouch

You know, I am really loving this ga wire, I would be real happy if we could get away with only 1 driver, instead of 4. I wound, 1 coil of all gauges I had, and 20.5 ga was my favorite, second favorite would be 23 turns of 20 ga.

@ Dana

Sorry to get you worried, I won't be trying for high RPM's, unless I put a variable capacitor on the shaft . I was just thinking of where voltage might have to be to have the loaded 6000 watt gen spinning at 3700 rpm. We will have arduino, and your fantastic programming, to increase voltage and maintain RPM.

[Ufopolitics]

Great and Impressive!

Comrades,

More testing, tres cool.

All testing at 36 v constant DC.

Test #1 energize 1 gate, outputs open then add cap and lamps to output

------------------RPM---amps
Gate 1----------2312---8
Add cap/lamps-1882---15
Gate 2----------2220---9.9
Add cap/lamps-1870---17
Gate 3----------2120---9
Add cap/lamps-1775---15.8
Gate 4----------2190---9.2
Add cap/lamps-1835---15.6

Test#2 two gates in parallel

------------------RPM---amps
Gate 1&3--------2605--8.7
Add cap/lamps--2360--15.6
Gate 2&4--------2635--9.5
Add cap/lamps--2450--16

Test#3 four gates in parallel

Rpm--2920
Amps-9.1

Amps are not going up as voltage is increased, nor by adding gates in parallel.

@ UFO, thanks for tips on brush alignment, wow man, I appear to gain 1000 rpm, for an extra 120 watts, if this is a linear relation, I know 2 points are hardly enough data, we can see where this is going. 108 volts @ 10 amps to get to. 9000 rpm.
Say amps double when gen loaded. 2000 watts.

@ midaztouch

What if small wire allows lower amps but more volts/more batteries, not good for a bike race but easier to pulse. But large ga wire allows more amps so lower volts/less batteries, but then you must build the monster, to pulse all four gates. Just thinking out loud.
This motor build you are going to do, is all r&d still, don't be disappointed if you have to rewind several times to get what you want.
Pick in between what's been done, so we get more data. It will help you and us,all more, I bet, if we get as many different ga motors put together as we can.

I still have 2 more days off, tomorrow I am going to hook up 1 monster to output, and try 24 v. Cross fingers guys, I can't imagine amps in going lower and RPMs going higher, but I will flip if it does.

Machine

Hello Friend,

Wow!, Impressing readings my friend!...I can only imagine when you "Quad Pulse" that Beast!

Forget about just using one Monster...at just one gate...it will NOT do the sequential speed gain trick...there MOST be a Delayed Signal in Time sent to each Gate INDEPENDENTLY...it could be the same exact signal...but, can NOT reproduce simultaneously on previous Gate...so, it must be always in "forwarding mode".

Maybe later on we could "fool" the System with only One Monster by building a Delay circuit -in between One Monster and all Four Gates-to perform/play the role of just the "Distributor" of the same One Monster Signal...just like an old Gas Engine does, where One Ignition Coil continuously keep sending a signal...and getting "Distributed in a Firing Order Sequence" through either a Mechanical or Modular Electronic Distributing Circuit...BUT for now...we must stick to the Four Monsters...

Your Test at 36V is amazing the Low Amp Draw, you beat me and Dana so far in linear/continuous feed at 36V...HOWEVER, I still see your RPM's too low for those voltages...it seems you could Tune/Time that Baby for a stronger/faster interaction(s)...and realize that the faster it will go (3800-4200 would be the suitable speed) the less time to build up high amperage draw...so yes...the faster the lower draw (less time per Coil Firing, will allow much less amp build up)

It seems your Wire/Turn Ratio so far is the best around here...that will allow you to increase Voltage while keeping amperage at a standard low level...and that is exactly what we are looking for!

Looking forward to your pulsing of that Beast...


Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

@ machine


I don't think anyone is using the 20ga.

UFO 18ga
Dana 19ga
????? 20ga
Machine 20.5

Do you know if anyone is using the 20ga?

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

[machinealive]

@ midaztouch

You will be the only 20 ga., Koggs is going with 1 mm, I think that's 18 ga as well.

@UFO

I am still using the comm that I widened the elements on. That might be making a difference as well. Pushing in hard on brush will get to 2500- 2600.
Could be all due to smaller ga wire. I should try 1 at 48 v to see if I get 3600ish.
48v*10amp. Yours would be 36v*was it 17 amps. Do you still have your numbers for 24 and 36 v?amps, volts, and rpm.

Machine

[Ufopolitics]

Yes , you could do that...

@ midaztouch

You will be the only 20 ga., Koggs is going with 1 mm, I think that's 18 ga as well.

@UFO

I am still using the comm that I widened the elements on. That might be making a difference as well. Pushing in hard on brush will get to 2500- 2600.
Could be all due to smaller ga wire. I should try 1 at 48 v to see if I get 3600ish.
48v*10amp. Yours would be 36v*was it 17 amps. Do you still have your numbers for 24 and 36 v?amps, volts, and rpm.

Machine

Hey Machine,

Don't think that commutator will cause that...I did it also...and I get higher RPM's...however, higher amp draw.

Yeah, try with 48V...and let's see...Monster could take up to 72 V as Dana and JS expressed...
That I remember...with 36V I was doing like 25-30 Amps linear/straight feed...however, when I pulsed with solenoid it dropped to 15-17 Amps...

I really don't think it is due to Gauge being 0.25 finer than mine...
I would rather concentrate in firing those gates AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the Stators Bisectors...then you will see the difference.


Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

20ga High volts vs amps

@machine

Ok, .20ga is cool because I was leaning towards low amp and high voltage for the battery pack. My thought was to use the Arduino and hall sensor to govern the rpms. The electric bikes that are in my class are under 6000rpms. I would only have to change the rear wheel gearing for endurance and short track. I want to keep is simple to gather data for the two races this year.

The battery pack will be lighter and more compact than the other electric bikes. The smaller battery pack will make it easier to position it to get a lower center of gravity and bike's ergonomics. Those are my Crosshairs for battery pack positioning.

Any thoughts?

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

[prochiro]

@Richie
If your going to use the imperial and Arduino for pulsing, might you just connect your throttle trigger to a slider pot to control RPM. I do not see why RPM reading and stability is needed for racing. Just hook it up and go go go.
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

Imperial in a Bike...

@machine

Ok, .20ga is cool because I was leaning towards low amp and high voltage for the battery pack. My thought was to use the Arduino and hall sensor to govern the rpms. The electric bikes that are in my class are under 6000rpms. I would only have to change the rear wheel gearing for endurance and short track. I want to keep is simple to gather data for the two races this year.

The battery pack will be lighter and more compact than the other electric bikes. The smaller battery pack will make it easier to position it to get a lower center of gravity and bike's ergonomics. Those are my Crosshairs for battery pack positioning.

Any thoughts?

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

Hello Midaztouch,

Sorry I have been busy, and mainly responding to the guys working on Imperial testing with Arduino...however, I have been reading all your posts Richie and the rest of the guys here...so, please, don't think I am ignoring you!

First Congratulation on your newborn Baby!! ...and by the way, Happy Father's Day!

Second, I am glad You got the Imperial "budget" approved!

Now, related to your Project:

Sitting a pretty "hefty" Motor like the Imperial on a Bike is not a simple deal...now, here I will tell you what I recommend:

Try to position Motor as close as possible to Bike center gravity point, or within your lower body axis.

Try to use a pretty small sprocket from motor and a much bigger one to rear wheel, to be driven with a chain...This will amplify the RPM's to gear ratio of your whole bike.

Battery Pack RACK...could seat in an angle aiming towards Center of Gravity (projecting most of the weight towards CG)

Make sure you install an easy access cut off switch from direct positive cable to batteries....and install it in your handles/steering...as close to reach as you could.

I would try first, pulsing Two Gates (1-3) while collecting 2-4 as Generators, to a small cap bank and through diodes (in order not to drain back to Motor Gates)...connect to battery pack...Now if Batteries are LiPo's this will not work...they require specific 0.7 V per certain specific timing to get charged back...

As it also depends on Type of Race...if it is a Short Race...then use all four Gates...and if it is a long race...then use 2+2.


I will set Arduino as an "Electronic Transmission" Program...where first gear would send stronger/closer pulses to brake inertia...then gradually, it will reverse signal feeding to save battery consumption...This will work directly with your accelerator ...so , if you press it...it will resume to step 1 (faster/shorter dead times between pulses)


Regards and good luck in your project!


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

@ Dana

Ok, I can do that. The questions is how high could i go on the voltage. I think I should keep the duty under 75%. Or does the duty even matter?
I worry about voltage spikes across the fets and the coils over heating. You once mentioned that the higher the voltage the lower the amp draw will be using the quad pulser.

Note *max volts from 100 batteries is 370v*

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

[Ufopolitics]

Too much V...

@ Dana

Ok, I can do that. The questions is how high could i go on the voltage. I think I should keep the duty under 75%. Or does the duty even matter?
I worry about voltage spikes across the fets and the coils over heating. You once mentioned that the higher the voltage the lower the amp draw will be using the quad pulser.

Note *max volts from 100 batteries is 370v*

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

Hello Richie,

I believe 370 Volts is way too much power for what we are all testing Imperial here...according to RPM's/Torque/Electronic Controllers.
I would start by testing bike first on a Speed fixed Ramp, that would read the RPM's, Torque and Speed Gain/Acceleration like a treadmill ...before you get it on the road...
I would test it first starting on "typical voltages" we have been dealing here...like 36,48,72...
Imperial, as we are building it here...with 370V...would JUMP SO HARD...that you may be ejected and airborne off the bike.
I just recommend to be seriously careful here...and basically now...that you are a Father.
In Symmetrical Motors you could use 370 Volts (just like most EV's do)...just because they will burn/crash a great voltage amount in inner reversing of polarity and Back EMF...Here, with Imperial YOU DO NOT HAVE those losses...meaning IF YOU put down 370V...they will REALLY get used to pro-pulse You and Bike.

Just be very careful.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Breaker, Breaker.

@ Dana

Ok, I can do that. The questions is how high could i go on the voltage. I think I should keep the duty under 75%. Or does the duty even matter?
I worry about voltage spikes across the fets and the coils over heating. You once mentioned that the higher the voltage the lower the amp draw will be using the quad pulser.

Note *max volts from 100 batteries is 370v*

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

Hello Richie. it has been my experience with pulse motors, once you go over about 150V input, you will have to deal with anything up to 2500v reverse transients, that love to jump across any gap that is a conductor, and in this type of electric motor there are gaps like that everywhere, even some you havn't thought of till it happens.

If you are going to take the imperial up to 100V plus, do it in small increments and test everything as you go.

If your motor setup happens to find a resonate point in the RPM, you could be in for a ride, so do what UFO says and include a bullet proof Kill Switch on your handlebars, small wires to a HD cutout contactor relay.

Good luck with your project, should be exciting.

Regards Cornboy.

[Midaztouch]

Happyyy Father's Dayyy!!!

@Ufo

Thank you so much for the congratulations

Happy Father's Day to all the fathers out there.

Yes, I know that Imperial motor is pretty hefty 44 pounds. The welder is one the engineers who brought us the Rothmans Honda Vfr 750cc motorcycles in the late 80s. He said that my bike frame can handle the motor weight but he was VERY strong on knowing the torque & HP.

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie

[Ufopolitics]

Asymmetry and Racing...

Hello Guys, and specially Midaztouch (Richie),

I have installed Asymmetric Motors in small vehicles...like Golf Carts and small Scooters like a Badsey with a BOSCH you guys have seen.

I just wanted to say this.

PLEASE BE VERY CAREFUL.

Asymmetric Motors are very High responsive...meaning, they tend to JUMP AND AUTO-INCREMENT SPEED IF, accelerator gets stuck or a relay or a FET shorted out...I had that problem before, and I did not know how to stop a raging bull trying to go over whatever it could find to grasp and hold on tires to...

On the small Badsey, I had to jump off and grab by handle while it kept spinning in the rear (traction) wheel...I had to follow it in circles...till I could reach a very small LiPo battery pack flying around it...and PULL IT so hard I broke/strip cables off the connectors...

It wasn't funny at all...and I am serious as a heart attack.

It was just one FET out of Five that shorted out...

Like Cornboy wrote...the heavy transients will do fry your Tronics if you load it with too much voltage...

The thing with Asymmetric is...even with some few Pairs-Coils burnt...it WILL STILL KEEP GOING...no matter what...so, I really mean to have a Kill switch very close by...and Cornboy, I really do not recommend to use a Relay in between switch...I recommend to use a Mechanical Blade Type Switch or a Trigger Cut Out Fuse Switch over rated the Amps on Batt to REALLY CUT OFF Batteries Positive completely off.

Sometimes relays tend Also, to melt/fuse HV side contacts under high Voltages/Amps....then "No Response" on cutting off power...


So, whoever is applying an Asymmetric Motor to ANY Vehicle/Craft...please be very careful and take all safety guidelines/measures in order to SHUT DOWN SYSTEM easily and FAST.


In "My Final Chapter" here...I will teach you all how to build a Flying Asymmetrical Vehicle...so, to those that want to get off ground...and serious again, as a heart attack,...taking SAFETY FIRST is a MOST!!


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

Kill switch at handlebars is 100% noted!

The battery pack can be configured the way we want. The batteries are cylinder type. They look like AA batteries but bigger. I will order 100 batteries. We can do anything we want for setting up with the voltages. I will build the battery box for the "Fire Blade AMEV1"......(Fire Blade Asymmetric Motor Electrical Vehicle 1)

Do you think about the name?

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie