My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Midaztouch]

Bistander


I'm in Japan. Buying and shipping to Japan a new complete 45lbs+ motor will cost hundreds of $$$. That's out of the equation for me.

Through years of testing trials and errors, I'm convinced that the asymetric motors will exceed the OEM motors. Between the torque and high RPMs, it gives us enough room to adjust the Timing and gearing to out perform a standard motor. At the beginning I was skeptical but I wanted to try and learn something new... Keep an Open Mind

Testing and building can be very frustrating. It costs a lot of time, money, effort and trust. You have to remember, no one is getting paid for this! We have gone through a lot of the hard work and some guidelines have been proven/specs. Constructive criticism on how to improve the system should be given after a person has built an asymetric motor built within the specs/tolerances that have been stated.

We have done a lot of this work and and there is still a lot that must still be done but... Now, it's time to enjoy some of the fruits of our labor. Im not too concerned with testing for now. Currently, I'm building an Electric Motorcycle to ride around town with my All North Imperial motor. I incourage people to do like wise... For me, it's spring! Enjoy the outdoors with 0/Zero emissions!

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[bistander]

DC load

Wow!...could you be more 'specific' about the proposed test you mentioned above?...yes, please, explain like we are all dummies...and specify like why do We will need a piece of fender...an old bike frame or a pipe or fence and some jumper cables for?

Just as you used lamps for a resistive load for the AC generator load in that test video, I mentioned using steel parts on hand and jumper cables for a 36V DC load if Midaz wanted to do a head to head test against the Imperial OEM machine.

If the resistance proves to low on a fender or bike frame, he could try a couple of steel plates in a bucket of salt water. It really doesn't matter and isn't too risky to experiment to get the proper resistance for 36V and 128A. For a short duration load test, 4600W isn't going to make a ton of heat. Hey, there's an idea, maybe he can find some heater elements to use for the load.

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Sam,

I am particularly interested in tests which have been documented so I watched that one from post #3132 several times. I noticed a discrepancy in the manner in which the input current was measured. Subsequent posts confirm that the current measurement was flawed and the test was invalid.

Can you provide links to other tests which have been run where input and output were measured while under load?

You also mention the test done on one of these machines at Imperial Motor Company. I cannot find any results or documentation relating to that except for some mention of commutation problems and the machine being returned. Were there ever any data taken there?

Thanks, from a new guy,

bistander

Hello Bistander,

Ok, I will try to 'clarify' your 'doubts' referring to the Test done back then:

The Post 3132 is at page 105

And the Test Video:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPum7B65e1w[/VIDEO]

So, let's get "Chronological" here...

If You take a closer look at the Date on that Test Video, it was Dec 18 2012, then between Dec 23 to 24 of 2012 (Same Year, Christmas Eve, nice dinner right?)...well between those two days I uploaded all three Imperial Asymmetrical Winding Tutorials of about 25-30 minutes each.

Then on Dec 29 to Jan 2nd, I uploaded all the Torque Testing Videos...

I am not sure about your knowledge on this kind of Asymmetrical machines, as I really can not make out what kind of electrical background you have...I have never seen you around before, but it is ok, am used to see "Parachuters" just land and start asking questions as putting some doubts about this whole Thread...believe me...it is kind of a 'normal' "business as usual" deal here...

But I guess you are -somehow- kind of knowledgeable about basic electrical fundamental concepts, and you do not need to be an Engineer to understand.

This Test was done with Two separate Inputs to Two Separate Circuits, however, the DC Amp Clamp was on the Negative side before the "Y" Split to the two switches for the two Inputs.

Now, this Machines run, based on Open Circuits,open Coils being ON-OFF all the time during operation, therefore, Amperage is NOT continuous like you find in a typical Closed Circuit Motor, which is constant DC Amps.

Unfortunately, We can not go out "shopping" right now and find everywhere a Pulsed Amp DC Clamp Meter...and if you know where we could find it, please let us know.

The fact is that Amps decrease considerably when Both Inputs are On after a small delay period, and this triggered a lot, I mean a lot of different kind of connections and controller search and new designs in all following posts after that particular date...where Sir John Stone made the "Monster Pulser" which could do that job along with Arduino Microprocessors.

The Imperial Test was a failed one because of bad connections done before getting the Diagrams for testing-connecting, and they burn motor, because they did not know, and have never before worked with this type of machines.


And then You wrote again...

And that you offer no other test. So there has been no documented load test showing measured input and output. It does seem odd that for a thread of over 7000 posts and over two and a half years, nobody has yet tested a machine. Your impressions of your machine's capability are only that, impressions, and not data.

Yeah right?...I agree with you here...We are just a bunch of Morons here trying to do the 'Impossible Dream'...

And, please let me add to the 'characteristics' of this Thread...that it reached over 900,000 views in that short time...while the other high end two were started about ten(10) to five (5) years ago...

Not bad Uh?

That would be easily done by coupling the shafts and running the OEM motor as a generator with a resistor across the terminals. Any piece of steel like an old bike frame, fender, pipe or fence with jumper cables would suffice. A couple of clamp ammeters and voltmeters and you have a head to head test to see how they stack up.

Maybe someday,

bi

Wow!...could you be more 'specific' about the proposed test you mentioned above?...yes, please, explain like we are all dummies...and specify like why do We will need a piece of fender...an old bike frame or a pipe or fence and some jumper cables for?

Indeed it sounds like a very Scientific and Convincing Testing...am all eyes!!


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

cemf

They went on to mystically accept how it was a necessary part of the motor process of converting electricity into motion...

More precisely; required to do work, or required to convert electric energy to mechanical energy.

I found an interesting reference just today in another thread here: http://www.energeticforum.com/274124-post15.html That reference is here: Electrical curriculum: What is Voltage? From that reference this quote:

Imagine a waterwheel being turned by a stream of water pouring from above. If the water is like the flowing electric charge, and the waterwheel is like an electric motor, then what is voltage? Voltage is like the height of the stream at the top of the wheel, or like its slope from the top of the wheel to the pool below. Without a height difference, there can be no water current and no work done by the waterwheel. Without a voltage difference across an electric motor, there can be no electric current and no work done by the motor.

It explains in a simple analogy the need for cemf in the motor.

[dyetalon]

... Me and Midaz were hanging around the diyelectric car forum, and those jokers who pretended to understand electric motors could not get it through their thick heads even when I quoted from my US Navy Personnel Manual on electrical systems and such, how CEMF voltage rose with RPM until it matched the battery voltage, opposing it, AND THAT IT WAS A BAD THING. They went on to mystically accept how it was a necessary part of the motor process of converting electricity into motion...
Sam

I couldn't agree with you more, Sam. I have a few motor patents that skim the cemf from the collapsing field and re-process the energy, returning it into the motor in a separate stage. When we were trying to get some traction with the 'professional' motor people, NO ONE could understand what we are doing. I used the same explanation you have said here, but they just stared at me like a little puppy (blank looks). Contemporary designs are limited- when the cemf reaches an equal voltage as the supply, then that's it for speed...won't go any faster! Not the case with our motors- I had one come apart on me around 18,000 rpm! Just barely missed getting hurt with flying debris. Now I use a safety cage for high speed runs.
You folks are on the right path. Don't be discouraged by the 'status-quo'.

[bistander]

Looking for test data

Thanks for the reply Midaz,

I assume you start your post concerning the Imperial test. And confirm it was a failure with no data collected.

And that you offer no other test. So there has been no documented load test showing measured input and output. It does seem odd that for a thread of over 7000 posts and over two and a half years, nobody has yet tested a machine. Your impressions of your machine's capability are only that, impressions, and not data.

I would like to see how the OEMs 36v @128 amps = 4600 watts, stacks up one more time, watts for watts.

That would be easily done by coupling the shafts and running the OEM motor as a generator with a resistor across the terminals. Any piece of steel like an old bike frame, fender, pipe or fence with jumper cables would suffice. A couple of clamp ammeters and voltmeters and you have a head to head test to see how they stack up.

Maybe someday,

bi

[Midaztouch]

Bistander

At that time of testing, it's only a small snapshot of what we were trying to do.

The first thing that needed to be done was test the motor "North/South wind" on a DC Power supply... That was an invalid test because the motor may have been connected incorrectly. Also the motor commutators were badly burned/scorched when returned... So, that testing was very iffy, NG.

Here are the specs from the OEM for the P56 frame.
http://www.imperialelectric.com/pdfs/imperial_pmm.pdf

Secondly, my motor was tested here in Japan. I was still trying/playing/learning about setting the timing. My motor sparked heavily also but I wasn't confident with my timing of my motor... I may not have done it correctly... It was spinning but it wasn't spinning strongly like other member's motors.


Now that I understand "How to Set the TIMING"...correctly. Ive seen major improvements!

1.) In the RPMs, my current All North motor is over 3600rpms @ 24v... Max from the OEM @ 36v is 3000rpms in any type of winding they use.

2.) Secondly the OEM Max torque is 15nm/11ft lbs... My current motor is way over the OEM's torque.. I don't have the proper test equipment but it has to be 3x that.

3.) OEM 36v is pulling 128 amps in their 5hp /motor = 4600 watts... Again, I don't have the proper equipment to check the Amps on my all north motor.

4.) Sparking is ALOT less.

Since I/we have learned more since the OEMs test results, I would like to see how the OEMs 36v @128 amps = 4600 watts, stacks up one more time, watts for watts.

I've learned that TIMING is crucial for asymmetric motors!


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[HuntingRoss]

You also mention the test done on one of these machines at Imperial Motor Company.

Hi bistander

The post with most of the confusion around testing is in UFO's post #7338 which is number 6 in the sequence of the history to the event.

Happy Hunting

mark

[bistander]

Looking for test data

Furthermore, Ufo's Post 3132 seem to disprove conventional wisdom. Anytime more energy can be garnered as in an open system, it would actually disprove the conventional wisdom that the rules of conservation of energy apply to the electric motor, as a closed system.

Hi Sam,

I am particularly interested in tests which have been documented so I watched that one from post #3132 several times. I noticed a discrepancy in the manner in which the input current was measured. Subsequent posts confirm that the current measurement was flawed and the test was invalid.

Can you provide links to other tests which have been run where input and output were measured while under load?

You also mention the test done on one of these machines at Imperial Motor Company. I cannot find any results or documentation relating to that except for some mention of commutation problems and the machine being returned. Were there ever any data taken there?

Thanks, from a new guy,

bistander

[Ufopolitics]

@UFOPolitics
Raul thank you for your quick help on the part number for the wedges it is greatly appreciated.

Hello Garry,

My pleasure friend, it only took me the time to get the box, write number and post it...minutes of time.

I have completed over a hundred timing tests with 4 different windings and am digesting the results now. I have tested the motor pairs, the generator pairs and the both of them under power. I have had to rewind and repair rotors and now have a bank of proof to put together in the form of movies on each winding. The results have been more instructive than I ever would have thought they would be.

Patience makes "Magic" works...

I really appreciate all you are doing here by yourself Garry, but am sure it is very rewarding to see the great results obtained...the power of learning is one of the best capability we own...but sharing what we've learned and experienced is the sky in itself within Us.

Truly the all north in all three configurations that I have wound have out performed the symmetrical oem version of the goldmine motors.

Yes Garry they all do...I knew that the first time I started playing with the "extended" versions from the first one I made a few years back...the Three Pole Asymmetric.

There is a "basic knowledge" required about Magnetism and Ferromagnetism Influences/Exchange properties... in order to understand the reason why the all North work so beautiful...but I will explain that in my other Thread coming soon...

The problem that most have with these motors in my opinion is the lack of patience to truly apply a scientific method to their research.

Patience is essential...however, We keep looking at our watches...and patience vanishes then...Time rules everything, but we have to think for the Future by "sacrificing the present"...it is the only way, then realize we have enough time to finish it...

It is not enough to just put one together. Do you think it was easy for the early researchers to come up with the amazing results they did over a hundred years ago. No they worked constantly on their models until they came up with consistently reproducible results. I am reminded of the early hot rodders that were on every street corner when I was growing up. Taking their stock engines, polishing and porting the valves, reworking the cam timings and carburetion. Trying to get that last little bit of performance out of each model.

The very rewarding point comes in when you find that "key" to make it work beautiful...then, it it could be reproduced over and over...and exact same successful results...isn't it worthy?...I believe it is.

Yes, the old machines...to get them in right timing is a real pain in the neck...I have worked there...I have replaced timing chains, sprockets...distributor shafts...guides, etc...I have rebuilt so many carburetors...Webber, Holley...Two and Four Barrel...rebuilt Electronic Diesel Fuel Pumps, Heads removal and Replacement...I know almost everything about Fuel Engines friend...and just a "hair" off ...and the thing will start misfiring like crazy...or the whole thing could collapse, just because of a miss calculation...and boom...gone...right?

I have another day of testing before I am finished and then I will try to publish the videos based on all of these findings so others can see for themselves the amazing results that I am seeing.

I am pretty sure many here are expecting that precious moment Garry...as I can tell about myself as well...

Raul I would like to consider with you the problem of torque testing where an electric motor is brought to a stall. I think that most of these tests were developed for steam and gasoline engines and not electric motors and the tests themselves are destructive for a high performance electric motor. When you stall an electric motor you are creating a short across the motor winding that the brush pair is feeding. As you are aware our motors are capable of carrying much higher amounts of voltage and amperage than the oem motors are in every situation except one, A Dead Short which occurs at stall. The only way these motors should ever be tested to a stall is with a circuit breaker installed or fuse to protect the motor against a dead short situation. Better to replace a fuse or reset a breaker than rewind a motor. Just food for thought.

Cheers

Garry

I agree with you 100% Garry, these old and primitive methods of taking Engines to stalling is simply ridiculous!!

On my whole research I have found a very simple method...and I have tested like that and it has worked out perfectly well.

Just "replace" the asymmetrical motor within an specific appliance or tool or equipment...vehicle, etc...that do some work...a drill, a weed-eater...a scooter...any electric vehicle...including a Golf Car...an R/C Toy...whatever can render some "performance" and then compare...OEM, versus Asymmetric...then you will see the "magic" during the testing...it is simple, just got to find the right tool, or vehicle, equipment, appliance, etc to house both motors without major complications, easy R&R...and the rest is just filming it and enjoying the show...

When we stall a larger number of coils machine...in a stop...just the circuit at short will burn out...like an Imperial...28 slots...56 Coils in Pairs...burn Two Pairs 180º across with two inputs On, and still keep enjoying the other 54...now do that with a symmetric Imperial...and watch the whole thing get on fire ......say it was connected on a Bike...just push it out of that burnt sequence and ROOOAM...is on again...it will take you to the destination....but it is not the way though...I agree.

Garry, my best regards to Members like You here!!...it does not matter if is just one who makes it through success...a million will watch and learn from your work alone!

Looking forward to see those videos my friend!


Cheers



Ufopolitics (but You could call me Raúl...)

[GChilders]

Tank Circuits

@Sampojo
Sorry I didn't get back to your question earlier. The method that I was discussing and will be testing after the timing tests are finished and the videos are edited and released will be a type of tank circuit that UFO has been demonstrating on many of his applications. The first time that I saw it was on his cold electricity coil. In the other thread at the beginning this was used. I have looked at this and John Bedini's method of charging batteries with the SSG charger and have seen a similarity in the two. In addition to this I have replicated and built several solid state chargers Imhotep's which I know you are familiar with and the Tesla Switch which was developed by a contemporary of Tesla, Ron Cole. There have been various successful replications of this device which seems basic in it's concept but most agree that the timing is somewhat difficult to accomplish. Electrodyne Corporation had a successful replication with a mechanical switching device and Bedini successfully replicated a solid state device. I am experimenting with a new take on merging three methods to collect energy from the bemf of the pulses that we use for powering the motor, into a bank of capacitors. I have a couple of tests in mind that I have tested that demonstrate why PWM is inferior to incremental increases in frequency. This is still experimental and I will demonstrate how that once you move the motor above the 50% duty cycle in the pwm controller the coils start generating more heat and actually stop generating electricity through the bemf. The coils at the top of the duty cycle range become so charged with current that other coils are becoming inductive. This could be collected and recycled but there is a loss of energy due to the motor coils becoming extremely hot. I will go over this in more detail prior to the tests.

Cheers

Garry

[GChilders]

Stalling electric motors

@UFOPolitics
Raul thank you for your quick help on the part number for the wedges it is greatly appreciated. I have completed over a hundred timing tests with 4 different windings and am digesting the results now. I have tested the motor pairs, the generator pairs and the both of them under power. I have had to rewind and repair rotors and now have a bank of proof to put together in the form of movies on each winding. The results have been more instructive than I ever would have thought they would be. Truly the all north in all three configurations that I have wound have out performed the symmetrical oem version of the goldmine motors. The problem that most have with these motors in my opinion is the lack of patience to truly apply a scientific method to their research. It is not enough to just put one together. Do you think it was easy for the early researchers to come up with the amazing results they did over a hundred years ago. No they worked constantly on their models until they came up with consistently reproducible results. I am reminded of the early hot rodders that were on every street corner when I was growing up. Taking their stock engines, polishing and porting the valves, reworking the cam timings and carburetion. Trying to get that last little bit of performance out of each model.
I have another day of testing before I am finished and then I will try to publish the videos based on all of these findings so others can see for themselves the amazing results that I am seeing.
Raul I would like to consider with you the problem of torque testing where an electric motor is brought to a stall. I think that most of these tests were developed for steam and gasoline engines and not electric motors and the tests themselves are destructive for a high performance electric motor. When you stall an electric motor you are creating a short across the motor winding that the brush pair is feeding. As you are aware our motors are capable of carrying much higher amounts of voltage and amperage than the oem motors are in every situation except one, A Dead Short which occurs at stall. The only way these motors should ever be tested to a stall is with a circuit breaker installed or fuse to protect the motor against a dead short situation. Better to replace a fuse or reset a breaker than rewind a motor. Just food for thought.

Cheers

Garry

[HuntingRoss]

Hi UFO

I have not 'flown away'.

I thought it was right and best to not continue to argue a point on timing which I well understand and so I retired graciously from the discussion to avoid detracting from the excellent work from you and all the other hard working people that give their time and effort freely to promote this important work.

I'm disappointed to see the other things you have said about me and my work here but will not defend or justify it here as I believe it would not be correct to do so.

It is however an extremely important foot note that I must make. I have never stated or implied your Asymm design is a failure. I would not have spent so much time trying to replicate it if I believed that. If there is any failure, it is mine. I tried and failed to replicate your design. That is all that has happened.

As I say, I will continue to try and replicate your work in my efforts to develop a different scooter/dirt bike platform.

I wish you the very best in this and every project.

With best regards

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Hi UFO

I'm sorry that I have not been able to demonstrate the principle that the coils connected to a comm element are energised for a 'hair' less than 60º. Being the angle between the comm leading edge entering the brush and the comm trailing edge leaving the brush.

I shall respectfully withdraw from the discussion to avoid further disruption to your thread.

With very best regards and thanks for all your effort in coaching me through this extremely important subject.

I shall continue to tinker and realise my 120 tooth sprocket project.

Always Hunting

mark

Mark,

This is what I was referring to:

[IMG][/IMG]

On left was all your original basic rotor-commutator structures during all your prior wrong testing, look at your Commutator Diameter, and then...

Look at your latest (yesterday) design on right...You drew the Commutator and Brush in a completely different scale, much bigger this time while keeping the same rotor diameter...

Also, in this later CAD, you "decided" to set the P1 Commutator Contact Element..."in another place"...messing up the whole timing that you had established before.

And of course, P2 is missing...what for right?...just with P1 alone proves your "point".

This is called "INCONSISTENCY" on CAD's design....out of scale models and all relating to the SAME, EXACT Structure, and of course the later model is going to "BENEFIT" what you are claiming having an issue, a problem with...right?

Take a look at Picture below Mark:


[IMG][/IMG]


I am pretty sure you knew about all this right Mark?...so, do you think it would be EXACTLY the same to sweep Commutator Element-Brush at left as the smaller one at right?!

Of course not!...smaller circumference switching plates/brush are going to turn on-off faster than wider area switching at left image.
AND BOTH WITH SAME EXACT 30º ANGLES, AND TURNING THE SAME ROTOR DIAMETER.

That was the reason why I asked previously about getting into "the same page", a SCALED EXACT CAD MODEL to run all this switching, otherwise you and I are WASTING OUR TIME HERE!!!

And then You "Fly away"...

You did an excellent job Mark!


One thing that caught my attention...was the fact that even being warned by me and many other Members here WAY BEFORE, YOU KEPT GOING with the WRONG SETTINGS...building all your "Beasts #"...right?


No matter I told you many, many times there WAS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH ALL YOUR SETTINGS.

But NOPE...You built several, I mean several Models WITH A CONTINUOUS "BRAKING OPTION INCLUDED" in the package, and VERY CAREFULLY TEST THEM ONE BY ONE...just to prove ALL OF THEM WERE A MERE FAILURE.

So Asymmetric Machines are a complete FAILURE...a waste of time.

Then you turned into the very old one commutator arrangement motor...and yes, vualá...it WORKED GREAT...better than ALL ASYMMETRIC ONES!!!

The only thing your tests triggered very well...was all the BS that merged here...all "My Old Friends" stepped in to finish the "Grace Shot"...


All this crap just consumed some of my sweet and valuable time...again.


So Mark, excellent job you did here...thanks a lot!


HOWEVER, I am STILL HERE, CONVINCED MY Machines are FAR SUPERIOR THAN ANY "OEM" OUT THERE IN THE SYMMETRIC WORLD...No matter what ANYONE have to say about them.


I just don't have time to be wasted on crap like this anymore.


Adiós, keep hunting for the "next catch"...


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Hi UFO

I'm sorry that I have not been able to demonstrate the principle that the coils connected to a comm element are energised for a 'hair' less than 60º. Being the angle between the comm leading edge entering the brush and the comm trailing edge leaving the brush.

I shall respectfully withdraw from the discussion to avoid further disruption to your thread.

With very best regards and thanks for all your effort in coaching me through this extremely important subject.

I shall continue to tinker and realise my 120 tooth sprocket project.

Always Hunting

mark