My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[iankoglin]

UFO,

Wind 5 then skip 2, repeat until finished for the Imperial?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

G'day Midaz
UFO has only shown us 4 separate windings I am sure this is for clarity only
I am sure we still need to wind each pole consecutively like P1,P2, P3, etc.

When UFO said we could wind the Imperial this way I immediately thought about the crossover on the small 5 pole motor for each half winding.
This would mean that if we wound the imperial P56 motor the same way it would mean that P1 would be wound from P2 to P24 and from P28 to P6 and that would mean that the build up of wire where they cross over @ P1 would be double and that means we would no way have enough room between the armature laminations and the commutator to do these windings.

I was going to post a query to UFO about this but he already posted the P56 all North's wiring diagram above and therefore answered My question before I wrote it.

Kindest regards to you my friend



Kogs saying as he sees it

[iankoglin]

G'day
I came home read the posts
started to write an answer made a coffee finished writing posted the answer and look UFO beat me to the post once again

UFO if we have more turns we will need thinner wire but of course you know that

Kindest regards
Kogs

[Midaztouch]

G'day Midaz
UFO has only shown us 4 separate windings I am sure this is for clarity only
I am sure we still need to wind each pole consecutively like P1,P2, P3, etc.

When UFO said we could wind the Imperial this way I immediately thought about the crossover on the small 5 pole motor for each half winding.
This would mean that if we wound the imperial P56 motor the same way it would mean that P1 would be wound from P2 to P24 and from P28 to P6 and that would mean that the build up of wire where they cross over @ P1 would be double and that means we would no way have enough room between the armature laminations and the commutator to do these windings.

I was going to post a query to UFO about this but he already posted the P56 all North's wiring diagram above and therefore answered My question before I wrote it.

Kindest regards to you my friend



Kogs saying as he sees it

Kogs

Just trying to get the math to add up neatly

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Ufopolitics]

Start Point (P1) and Commutator Element

Hello again,

The main part of a successful winding is contained on this "Chapter"...

The setting of P1 and the corresponding Commutator Element.

[IMG][/IMG]

The way I set this, is according to factory spec's, where each brush is aligned exactly on Bisector (Center) of each Stator...in order that small adjustments are allowed forward or reverse from that position on Brush mountings/End Caps.

If you take a look at your Imperial Rotor versus the Stator INNER circumference, will realize that EXACTLY Five (5) Poles comprehend the whole Stator Area... and We are winding Coils of EXACTLY Five Poles, so, the Bisector of each Coil would be the THIRD POLE of the Five, meaning, the CENTER ONE...counting from wherever...

Now, We still have "Pairs" here...but both are North... We name them as N1/N2 for P1 (P1/N1 and P1/N2), where P1/N1 would be our first wound coil, and the Commutator Element of POSITIVE Commutator on Drive Shaft is already attached to its wire.

On Picture above I have represented both Bisectors on each Blue Coil (segmented Blue Line at center of each Coil), plus Both Stators Bisectors (Turquoise for North and Yellow for South)

P1 Element at Comm Positive is marked RED, pointed with RED/BLACK Arrow, Note that it is STARTING to touch Brush M1, according to Rotation CCW (Not shown)

[IMG][/IMG]

Note that Commutator Element CENTER is EXACTLY at center of Pole #4 of P1/N1, as also, Pole#4 would be the Bisector (Center) of your "Future" P2 (shown on above Picture)...THEN, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT, that while P2 Future Commutator Element is still contacting Brush M1, This Pole#4 does NOT reach CENTER of South Stator...I already rotated this Armature assembly in CAD and it does NOT get to align Bisectors when P2 Element is still making contact with Brush M1.

This settings MUST BE checked by assembling Rotor to Stator Motor Casing with just P1 Wound (could be with P2 also)...making sure that all this contacts are exactly like above explained related to brushes set up and Stator position.

This settings are even more Asymmetrical than previous Winding where we had N-S Coils at Pairs, as here, the Attract angle to South Stator MUST BE MUCH wider than Repulsion between North Stator...which I have set VERY CLOSE to Stator Center.

In the previous settings Attract and Repulse Angles were IDENTICAL...HERE, THEY ARE RADICALLY DIFFERENT, say Repulse is 1º...and Attract would be @ 10º


@Kogs: Yes Kogs, the wire must be finer than previous 18 awg...say a 22-23 gauge (awg)...so we could add over 20 Turns per Coil.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[iankoglin]

Hello again,

@Kogs: Yes Kogs, the wire must be finer than previous 18 awg...say a 22-23 gauge (awg)...so we could add over 20 Turns per Coil.


Regards


Ufopolitics

G'day UFO
I remember you said we can not go by calculations BUT
I always try to think things through
So just thinking aloud

First the premise
The #Turns is governed by the volume of the 1 slot in the P56 say PI
In each slot we have to have the #Turns div by 4 = #Turns per half pair.
So if we take the previous #Turns per half pair in my case 15 and multiply by the wire thickness we have the volume of wire per #Turns per P1N or P1S previous now we can calculate the new #Turns for P1N1 or P1N2

UFO are you up to it I know you can not get much sleep Like me I dream about these things

Now onto some hard thinking
V= volume, ONT = Old Number turns, NNT= New Number of Turns. WT = Thickness of wire, AWG18=1.0mm,AWG 21 =0.71, AWG22=0.61, AWG23=0.56

So V=ONT x AWG18= 15*1=15 so V=15

Inversely NNT= V/WT so

AWG21 NNT=15/0.71 =21.126 so for AWG21 the NNT= 21 has resistance of 44.89 Ohms per Klm =10.77 Ohms per Kg
AWG22 NNT=15/0.61 =24.590 so for AWG22 the NNT =24 has resistance of 65 Ohms per Klm =26 Ohms per Kg
AWG23 NNT=15/0.56 =26.785 so for AWG23 the NNT= 26 has resistance of 72.18 Ohms per Klm=33.2 Ohms per kg

My armature wound weighed =8.902-unwound weight =6.930 wire weight is 1. 927 kg and was AWG 18 .6 to .7 Ohms per pair
We should easily be able to fit more thinner wire turns
So my reckoning is as follows
AWG 21 would be 21 turns @ 10.77 Ohms Per Kg * 1.927kg 20.75/28 = 0.741 Ohms per pair Ohms Nearest to mine
AWG22 would be 24 Turns @ 26 Ohms Per Kg * 1.927kg = 50.102/28 = 1.789 Ohms per pair 9 turns more
AWG 23 would be 26 turns @ 33.2 Ohms Per Kg * 1.927kg 63.976/28 = 2.285 Ohms per pair 21 turns more

So UFO which would be the better option?

Kindest Regards

Is Kogs thinking aloud allowed

[Ufopolitics]

My Friend...

G'day UFO
I remember you said we can not go by calculations BUT
I always try to think things through
So just thinking aloud

First the premise
The #Turns is governed by the volume of the 1 slot in the P56 say PI
In each slot we have to have the #Turns div by 4 = #Turns per half pair.
So if we take the previous #Turns per half pair in my case 15 and multiply by the wire thickness we have the volume of wire per #Turns per P1N or P1S previous now we can calculate the new #Turns for P1N1 or P1N2

UFO are you up to it I know you can not get much sleep Like me I dream about these things

Now onto some hard thinking
V= volume, ONT = Old Number turns, NNT= New Number of Turns. WT = Thickness of wire, AWG18=1.0mm,AWG 21 =0.71, AWG22=0.61, AWG23=0.56

So V=ONT x AWG18= 15*1=15 so V=15

Inversely NNT= V/WT so

AWG21 NNT=15/0.71 =21.126 so for AWG21 the NNT= 21 has resistance of 44.89 Ohms per Klm =10.77 Ohms per Kg
AWG22 NNT=15/0.61 =24.590 so for AWG22 the NNT =24 has resistance of 65 Ohms per Klm =26 Ohms per Kg
AWG23 NNT=15/0.56 =26.785 so for AWG23 the NNT= 26 has resistance of 72.18 Ohms per Klm=33.2 Ohms per kg

My armature wound weighed =8.902-unwound weight =6.930 wire weight is 1. 927 kg and was AWG 18 .6 to .7 Ohms per pair
We should easily be able to fit more thinner wire turns
So my reckoning is as follows
AWG 21 would be 21 turns @ 10.77 Ohms Per Kg * 1.927kg 20.75/28 = 0.741 Ohms per pair Ohms Nearest to mine
AWG22 would be 24 Turns @ 26 Ohms Per Kg * 1.927kg = 50.102/28 = 1.789 Ohms per pair 9 turns more
AWG 23 would be 26 turns @ 33.2 Ohms Per Kg * 1.927kg 63.976/28 = 2.285 Ohms per pair 21 turns more

So UFO which would be the better option?

Kindest Regards

Is Kogs thinking aloud allowed

Hello My Friend Kogs,


I will entirely leave you the "pleasure" of doing all the calculations and winding yourself...

Now commenting on your final gauges/ohms...my opinion.

23 is too fine wire to move that Beast of Imperial...I honestly do not think it would build enough strong magnetic field as required per rotor mass...plus stators magnetic strength factor.

I would say it is between 21 and 22...however, I notice such a big Ohms difference between 21-22...

My recommend is to wind first P1...say with 21 and measure ohms when finish as also figure out if enough room.

I will really love to be able to do it with 18 awg...but seen this it would be too small resistance.

But honestly Kogs, I am working on a P10 All Norths right now...in order to see if we get same results/advantages before moving on. I do not have an Imperial yet to be wound, and still when I get it...it will take me some time to get it ready to be tested...even though I am planning to just do a full Armature All North, and swap them into my existing Housing assembly...resuming, My Friend, after seen what you did with your Imperial...I FULLY trust you will do a heck of a job there...


I will be here, for anything you need, and many thanks!


Kind Regards Friend


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Is a "Good Thing" though...

neurons firing up a bit I see. Nice job UFO! Right under our noses, eh? well excuse me while I try to stay afloat here and keep mine above water level... As soon as I get those taxes done and hold off those doctors, I will see what I can get to! Almost done with my baldor commutators, but I am getting an antsy feeling the old winding might be obsolete. Looks like it still one pole to one commutator connection... Just needs developed for more poles as you mention.

Hey Sam,

Well, look at it this way...it is a good thing you are still on this stage...and have NOT wound your BALDOR...

Now, for sure we will make it roar...!!

Was it a 20 or a 40 Poles?...I believe Comm is 40 elements...and it is a 20 right?


Regards


Ufopolitics

[GChilders]

new wind

@ufoPolitics

Just trying to get my mind around the new wind. As I see it we are no longer splitting the wind into two separate coils North and South around two different poles on the rotor. The single will still have a North and South pole as all electro magnets have a North and South pole. But the South pole is connected to the + commutator and the North is connected to the - commutator. Since the South is being wound first the south pole will be facing the axis of the motor and the North facing the Stators(When power is applied to the commutators). When the motor rotates to the generator brushes the magnetic field collapses reversing the electron flow and reversing the polarity of the coils in which case the outer facing coils become South Poles. This seems like a much simpler design to wind and should have less resistence to the generation of electricity. How well does it work for a generator and would the pole alignment to the stators change if making a generator instead of a motor? Would we need to align the poles to sweep though the entire Stator. It seems like the design allows for a non powered generator to sweep through the entire Stator inducing electricity into the coils to be collected be the next set of brushes. This should set up an A/C circuit for generator. Very cool. By Gosh I think you have it Ufo. Well done. Any way correct me if my analysis is incorrect.

Cheers

Garry

[GChilders]

new wind revisited

@ufoPolitics

After examining the new radio shack wind I am baffled. We are again splitting the wind into two different poles. I think what made the three pole so powerful was that the poles did not interfere with each other. So what is the difference between the new wind and the old wind. The direction of the coil wind in the second coil. How does this change the fact that it is still a south pole?

Doesn't the positive and negative of the electromagnet determine the South and North pole orientation?

Cheers Garry

[Ufopolitics]

North-South Poles...

@ufoPolitics

Just trying to get my mind around the new wind. As I see it we are no longer splitting the wind into two separate coils North and South around two different poles on the rotor. The single will still have a North and South pole as all electro magnets have a North and South pole. But the South pole is connected to the + commutator and the North is connected to the - commutator. Since the South is being wound first the south pole will be facing the axis of the motor and the North facing the Stators(When power is applied to the commutators). When the motor rotates to the generator brushes the magnetic field collapses reversing the electron flow and reversing the polarity of the coils in which case the outer facing coils become South Poles. This seems like a much simpler design to wind and should have less resistence to the generation of electricity. How well does it work for a generator and would the pole alignment to the stators change if making a generator instead of a motor? Would we need to align the poles to sweep though the entire Stator. It seems like the design allows for a non powered generator to sweep through the entire Stator inducing electricity into the coils to be collected be the next set of brushes. This should set up an A/C circuit for generator. Very cool. By Gosh I think you have it Ufo. Well done. Any way correct me if my analysis is incorrect.

Cheers

Garry

Hello Garry,

Ok, I will try to explain this simple based on electromagnets...

Say we have a typical Cylindrical Coil, no core, just wires looking like a spring...we feed coil with DC from a Battery, and we get an end North and the other South...right?
So, now, let's divide with our hands that coil right at center while we keep feeding it...we stretch a few turns of wire ...then we turn just one split coil around at exactly 180º and try to approach that "new" end that used to be at junction towards the original end that was North...you will see they repel each others...both are North.

Something like this:

N-S was our Coil...when we split right at center and stretch the wire so it keeps feeding, then we have: NS----NS

Electromagnets behave exactly the same as Magnets...if we split them, they form another N/S for each piece.

In the case of the RS Motor now, we are using just North Poles facing Stators, and all South Poles are facing shaft side...it is just a matter of "twisting" those wires Garry...


Kind Regards


Ufopolitics

[GChilders]

magnetic poles

@ufoPolitics

Got it

Cheers

Garry

[Ufopolitics]

Three Poles...

@ufoPolitics

After examining the new radio shack wind I am baffled. We are again splitting the wind into two different poles. I think what made the three pole so powerful was that the poles did not interfere with each other.

Hello Garry,

You are completely right...in the new RS Motor after the new winding runs excellent, much better than before with the prior winding.

The 3 Pole have independent single Coils, all facing North towards Stators, then all South toward shaft...however, just one Pole at a time gets activated/fired, while the other two are "idling" or at Generator Stage...this Motor outputs more than any of the others through out gates...while the Amp Draw is minimal...and resistance is somewhere around same deal as others...so why?

So what is the difference between the new wind and the old wind. The direction of the coil wind in the second coil. How does this change the fact that it is still a south pole?

Doesn't the positive and negative of the electromagnet determine the South and North pole orientation?

Cheers Garry

It is about the way you are "Projecting" that Coil North or South Garry...if coils have same Input +/- they will always project same N or S, so it depends upon the position related to Stators and the way current flows...

But there is more about the Three Pole...I just finished a P10 all North at rotor...and somehow the "Effect" is not there...

So, yes, we may be on the right track here...but we still have to keep testing...

Magnetism is clever...its Polarity could be "re-directed" through steel and show up where we do not even think of...for example.

That Three Pole has a "Y" Rotor...at 120º apart...we are firing North one end of the "Y" towards stators... but at that very moment of firing...don't you think that South Pole is traveling through core-passing shaft- and ending on the Two opposed Rotor Poles?

I believe so...and that could be why other Geometries do not do it...since there is another Coil projecting South toward shaft at 180º...therefore, interrupting the traveling and manifestation on front of Poles...due to South/South repulsion is blocking it...

On the Three Pole...while running it...if you get an LED...touch one end with your fingers (ground) while touching motor casing which IS ISOLATED from all electrical contacts...LED will light up...dimmer but it does...and it should not do that...

Hope did not confuse you more now...


Cheers


Ufopolitics

[GChilders]

magnetic penetration

@ufoPolitics
I believe that a simpler geometry might be tried, such as the 3 pole where as each pole is powered there is opposition from both poles interacting with the same poles. I am not sure how much influence the structure of the rotor has on the magnetic field. I am sure that there is influence but you are right in that the nature of the change may be a little unpredictable. Have you tried winding the ten pole with a single coil instead of a split coil for each pole?? Just an idea that mimicks the simplicity of the 3 pole.

Cheers,

Garry

[Midaztouch]

UFO

It is about the way you are "Projecting" that Coil North or South Garry...if coils have same Input +/- they will always project same N or S, so it depends upon the position related to Stators and the way current flows...

But there is more about the Three Pole...I just finished a P10 all North at rotor...and somehow the "Effect" is not there...

So, yes, we may be on the right track here...but we still have to keep testing...

Could you please expand more on the "Effect" is not there." for the 10 pole?

Keep It Clean and Green
Midaz

[Ufopolitics]

UFO



Could you please expand more on the "Effect" is not there." for the 10 pole?

Keep It Clean and Green
Midaz

Hello Midaz,

Effect referring to the Ground Radiant Effect I got on the Three Pole. Plus the Amp draw is not that low either as in the Five Pole new wind...However, when I jump rear connectors and feed two front like we all have been doing...it does the Effect...plus I can light up an incandescent bulb and RPM's will not get affected.


I am gonna make a video to show all this...but am not done yet.


Be patient...


Regards


Ufopolitics