My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[interestedngreen]

group winding for 12P, 2 stators

I could not find a 10 pole 2 stators motor to wind using the group winding method. But I have a 12 pole, 12 comm elements, 2 stators motor that I would like to wind instead. Mr. Ufopolitics, Sir, can the illustration of G-1O in post #6490 apply to my 12 pole 2 stators rewind? Thanks in advance.

[shylo]

Rpm increase

With every group I add the rpm increases.
I only have 1 brush connected to the positive of the battery on the stock brushes. The other 3 brushes are for collecting. I added a fifth brush, to the added commutator for a common ground.
All my group ends are tied together ,for a common ground, which are tied to the added comm.
When I hook a secondary motor to any of the 3 collector brushes ,it runs and the rpm's increase.
One side of the 2nd motor to collector, the other to common ground.
Also after looking more closely at UFOs' 10 pole, I still think I'm doing it wrong.
Even so this thing just screams , and it does get warm but not like before, ..it has alot to do with getting the brushes timed or set properly.

Hi Sam,.. that is the same motor I used ,but your build will be much better than mine looking forward to your results.

Interestedgreen, I can't say for sure but I think you can just add 1 more pole ,...10 pole spans 3, 12 pole should span 4,....but that only applies to a motor with 2 stator magnets.

Hey Kogs, How is Nessie coming along I've been waiting ? As I'm sure many others are as well.

The rpms just keep increasing I only have 8 groups (room for 16 ) ...and when you load it it speeds up...but when I try to feed back to the drive battery , it bogs down and everything heats up to the burning point.

I think I have to re-wire again.
artv

[iankoglin]

Nessie's Progress

Hey Kogs, How is Nessie coming along I've been waiting ? As I'm sure many others are as well.


artv

G'day Shylo
Nessie is very patient I have not much more to do on her.
I am in the process of making a new JS's Monster and yesterday I used a small black box to fit-up a square wave generator that has an adjustable read out of the hz and Duty cycle it also has a regulated Power reduction from up to 40v input and set at 12.5v output this I need to test JS's Monster as I can set it to 1 hz up to ?hz and the Duty cycle from 1% to 99% it has 2 outputs 5v each
to test JS's monster he suggests to set @ 1 hz 50% Duty Cycle

When I have the Oscillator Throttle under control I will put Nessie's Heart (all the electronics) together on the bench to test everything then when I am satisfied I will install everything in Nessie then My test driver can Test her

When I finish her I will make/mod/wind a Goldmine motor all N'ths Asymmetrically

Kindest Regards


Kogs Slowly getting there but getting there

[GChilders]

Extra RPM

@ufoPolitics

I have been thinking about the video with the demonstration of the all north poles R/S motor. I think it is amazing how the motor speeds up when the load is applied. This is indeed an amazing accomplishment and I know of no other motor that can make this statement. You asked the question on the video, I am paraphrasing here, where does the extra power come from? I believe that some of it is still coming from the power supply. You stated that this power supply is limited to 19.0 volts 3amps, for a total of 57 watts. The volts are totaled at 19.0 volts and this is all of the volts available, but the amps are .17 amps. When the watts calculation is performed this is only consuming 3.23 watts total. When the load is put on the amps goes up significantly jumping from .17 amps to .85 amps for a total consumption of
16.5 watts of power. The power consumption is different but real none the less. Power has two components voltage, which is the push, and amps which is the current and actually the more dangerous of the two. Every one fears high voltage lines but they are only dangerous because of the high amperage in those lines. No one that I know of has ever died because of a shock from a spark plug wire, or a shorting distributor cap on an automobile, but this is an example of extremely high voltage, 35000 to 60000 volts but very low amperage. Whereas many have been electrocuted and killed with as low as 20 amps in household current at 120 volts.
One of the interesting things that happens in larger motors is the amp draws. To turn those big electromagnets and iron cores requires a whole lot more amps. My drill motors take about 3.5 amps. My Chop saw 2 HP motor requires 15.0 amps. They both run on 120 volts. 420 watts for the drill motor, and 1800 watts for the chop saw. Over 4 times the energy consumed 4 times the power used for the chop saw v/s the drill. What amazes me is that these motors unleash the power to be utilized without the overheating in the symmetric winds. When current is increased in an electromagnet the field is increased by a significant amount. This is the real secret behind the power of these motors. Increase the amps and the electromagnetic field is strengthened. When you do this on a symmetric motor the motor slows down because of the shorted condition of the rotor. This generates more heat and heat is an obstruction to current flow. If the wire gets hot enough by pushing too much amperage it will simply disintegrate. Just like the electrode of an arc welder. These little motors are like race horses, They are built to go, and go they will.

Cheers

Garry

[warrensk]

Negative Resistance

After studying a lot of tesla's stuff on his oscillators there came up an idea of negative resistance...by being able to inject it into his LC circuit he could annul the winding resistance of the coil and the Q factor would go up through the roof. This is mainly for selectivity in radio circuits...

But, could his motors be based on the same principals?

If we have a given voltage from the power supply, and a given resistance from the motor coils...to me it sounds like this is where our limit stops us for how much current we can inject into the motor coils with no changes in our power supply...By adding resistance on the generator coils, it is affecting the motor coil's resistance in some sense. "Negative resistance." However this is done through some sort of resonance, or near field interaction by adding a resistive load to a coil when it is allowed to reverse its polarity without being destroyed by the geometry that creates it.

Either this or the motor coils become part of some sort of suction force that pulls current rather than resists it. This seems to be only done with proper balance...in the imaginary phasor diagram sense...these are not real numbers we are dealing with....interesting indeed!


We are in a sense seeing the imaginary become real.

[Ufopolitics]

Diodes on Output...

With every group I add the rpm increases.
I only have 1 brush connected to the positive of the battery on the stock brushes. The other 3 brushes are for collecting. I added a fifth brush, to the added commutator for a common ground.

Hello Shylo, excellent!

All my group ends are tied together ,for a common ground, which are tied to the added comm.
When I hook a secondary motor to any of the 3 collector brushes ,it runs and the rpm's increase.
One side of the 2nd motor to collector, the other to common ground.
Also after looking more closely at UFOs' 10 pole, I still think I'm doing it wrong.

Well, it sounds like fun Shylo...however, think about it...you have All Groups ends tied together ...I do not...so what happens is that Coils do swap for real from BOTH Input extremes...(in my case)...Your way keeps one tie...where they share same ground...

Even so this thing just screams , and it does get warm but not like before, ..it has alot to do with getting the brushes timed or set properly.

Even though your set up seems to be working fine and only Half coils wound...

The rpms just keep increasing I only have 8 groups (room for 16 ) ...and when you load it it speeds up...but when I try to feed back to the drive battery , it bogs down and everything heats up to the burning point.

I think I have to re-wire again.
artv

If you want to regenerate battery with motor Out...you need to use Diodes to block reverse energy to flow back to Motor from Batteries...only one way friend...from Motor(+)---l>l---(+)Batteries or.... from Motor (-)---l<l---Battery (-)...or BOTH Better!!...otherwise Motor would be using the generated power to come back to it...overheating it.

Use some good diodes, ultrafast switchers, rated above 100V...and High Amps...otherwise ...they will heat up.

Cheers


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

RS Spec's...

@ufoPolitics

ufo I apologize for bothering you with such a trivial matter. But I decided I had a few minutes to spare this morning and measured the length of wire that I would need for the all north two pair winding, at 30 loops per coil I have a total length of 210 inches of awg30 or approximately 105 inches per coil. When I read the resistance on this wire it came to 2.4 ohms for the length of wire. Now this is very similar to the reading that I got on the other two winds. The R/S wind and the Y wind. I keep reading that you are recommending between .6 and 1 ohm per coil pair Does that rule only apply to larger motors or to these small motors also.

Cheers

Garry

Hello Garry,

[IMG][/IMG]

They are 25 turns per coil...50 on pair...resistance 1.3 ohms aprox...for BOTH Type of Motors..Now the resistance I said...may be not that precise...I have not measured my DMM Internal Resistance..so just do it with 25TX2=50 turns Pair...and tell us on Real Model what is R?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diY9...0YnD2b5zasXXng

Minute 1:40...that was on N-S Pairs...then I write exactly as...to other winding type...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

I could not find a 10 pole 2 stators motor to wind using the group winding method. But I have a 12 pole, 12 comm elements, 2 stators motor that I would like to wind instead. Mr. Ufopolitics, Sir, can the illustration of G-1O in post #6490 apply to my 12 pole 2 stators rewind? Thanks in advance.

Hello IG,

Just get my 12 Pole N-S Pairs, 2 Stators...and replace them by groups...just like I did with P10...

Then show us what you have...


Ufopolitics

[warrensk]

20 pole to a 5 pole?

Hello UFO...so in my burn of the two MY1020 motors I forgot to pull the commutator off and I destroyed one of them...I got to thinking, could I reduce the number of poles to 5? This would make it easier to make a commutator for the build. Let me know!

[Ufopolitics]

20 to 5...

Hello UFO...so in my burn of the two MY1020 motors I forgot to pull the commutator off and I destroyed one of them...I got to thinking, could I reduce the number of poles to 5? This would make it easier to make a commutator for the build. Let me know!

Hello Warrensk,

Well, you've got a choice to make there friend...however, the Five Pole RS Type is a Two Stator...is it going to be simple to swap magnets to make it N-N-S-S?

For sure it would be a nice Scaling of the Five Pole small one...and watch if Attributes remain as well...plus the extra two brushes could be used to see output at those angles.

However, I will be doing a 20 pole, but using Groups...20 Groups, converting the BOSCH I have. I need to see how it behaves with a Four Brush/Four Stator System...so we could move up into bigger outputting plus stronger machines...that still accelerate under load.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[warrensk]

Moving stators wont be easy...

Hey UFO,

Ive got another pair of MY1020's coming...I just realized all the new concepts are for a 2 stator system...I will wait patiently to see your results with the 4 stator/4brush system...A ten pole 4 stator system can be done too. Let me know if it can be applied simply to 4 stators...


Could I wind it just as I wound the 16 pole but with all north coils and only 10 poles?



Or I could wind groups of coils in between where the pair would have occupied? Would the angle be alright?

Warrensk

[sampojo]

Question on changing coil sized in the group winding

Hello to All,

The Ten poles as seen on last video was wound as a P-10 (Ten Pairs):

[IMG][/IMG]

I made it out of my Sullivan Starter Motor for Gas R/C Helicopters, converted to Asymmetrical previously...Now I am going to re-wind it according to 10 Groups, NOT Pairs...so is a "G-10":

[IMG][/IMG]

Don't get scared, it may look complicated but it is NOT...is just to "see" what we are doing here...

In Pairs Winding, each Coil wrapped around Three Poles, so Six (6) for Pair...and now in Groups we are comprehending same Total of Six (6) Poles for each Group.

Every Group have Four (4) Coils, instead Pairs having Two (2) Coils...so, we fit Four Coils into Six Poles by Overlapping every pole.

We are using exactly SAME Commutator Element as on Pairs.

We would be able to fit more copper, more turns, as also leave less air gaps, plus other attributes related to performance...

The way I recommend to wind this is to start like P1 in Blue...then winding next P10, then P9 and so on...so the displacement of wires sets better into each other overlapped Coils Group slots.

Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi ufo , all

I assume we use the same length wire, resistance per group. But when winding outwardly stacking the coils the outer coils being wider may take fewer winds and less turns per sub coil. In other words we don't try to compensate this detail and do something like maintain the same number of winds on a coil?

thanks,

Sam

[Ufopolitics]

Hi ufo , all

I assume we use the same length wire, resistance per group.

Hello Sam,

Nope...We need to create strong Magnetic Fields on EACH Coil, so, minimum we need to turn is at least five times per coil.
The "mechanical" advantage of using Groups is to be able to add a bit more turns then have more resistance at Group than we had on Pairs...

But when winding outwardly stacking the coils the outer coils being wider may take fewer winds and less turns per sub coil. In other words we don't try to compensate this detail and do something like maintain the same number of winds on a coil?

thanks,

Sam

The difference is much less in Groups than in Pairs Sam...Groups are using more slots, spreading outwardly more even than Pairs.

Don't worry about so many details...just wind the darn thing and test it Man!!...

I thought you were uploading videos by now...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hey UFO,

Ive got another pair of MY1020's coming...I just realized all the new concepts are for a 2 stator system...I will wait patiently to see your results with the 4 stator/4brush system...A ten pole 4 stator system can be done too. Let me know if it can be applied simply to 4 stators...


Could I wind it just as I wound the 16 pole but with all north coils and only 10 poles?



Or I could wind groups of coils in between where the pair would have occupied? Would the angle be alright?

Warrensk

Hello Warrensk,

If you just wind that Diagram "AS IS" but with All North Coils, instead of North South...that "thing" won't move when energized, even if shaft attached to a working Asymmetric Imperial......just kidding...and exaggerating

Take a look just at South Coils and make them Blue...or North...when you energize those Pairs all North...the existing Norths will favor rotation by repulsion just like before...BUT Norths replacing South will be attracted to South Stator Fields Center...generating two Forces perfectly opposite to rotation...it will stay in same place...just humming.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

IMPORTANT!: Groups are &quot;ONE WAY&quot; Winding.

Hello to All,

One thing I want to share and that is:

VERY IMPORTANT!: Groups are "ONE WAY" Winding.

[IMG][/IMG]

I have written about this previously...but I wanted to dedicate just one post so it gets Special ATTENTION.

It doesn't matter Rotation sense or Groups "Numbering"...We must wind Groups in "Advance Mode", meaning, that next group ALWAYS is AHEAD of previous wound...never wind them "Backwards"...or there would be a lot of air gaps between first and last coils of two groups.

Look at picture above...I have chosen to show G1 and G10...and that is PROGRESSIVE/ADVANCED WINDING.

If I wind G1, then G2...We will have air gaps between first Coil from G1 and last of G2.

When you wind progressively, coils will fit perfectly tight one on top of the other, just like One Single Coil...and that is the way they should look.

[IMG][/IMG]

Actually Coils do NOT look like straight lines...but like picture above...


And this is not only about a better way to fit make tight this type of windings mechanically...but, it has to do also with Magnetic Fields projection, strength, induction, etc... resulting in overall Performance of Machine.
And...finally...one way that you can NEVER DO this winding...is to do G1...then G8...then G16...meaning "alternatively" or randomly.


Thanks


Ufopolitics