My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[HuntingRoss]

Rebuild complete

Evening All.

So. We have been busy playing with our new toy...my testing assistant (daughter) was very eager to further science by trying out the scooter (un-modified). She loves it, and I'm extremely surprised at its abilities.

Living in Scotland, there is not much that is flat so it got some real 'terrain' as they describe it in the manual. Now depending on terrain it can do 20km (12miles) between charges. We did 4 mile journey today up some hills I didn't think it would even touch. But 4 miles was pretty much it. It still could handle flat bits but slopes were now beyond its reach. Recharge was 6 hours, so not completely flat which would be 8 hours.

The new motor is wound with 0.425mm 0.121 ohm/m.
12 groups
3 coils per group
3 poles 12 winds per coil

By application of math, the resistance for one group should be in the region of 1.2 - 1.4 ohm...but my meter was reading 0.012...so I think I need to figure out my meter !!

The benchmark 5v test -
5.39v no load
5.11v load (v in)
3.95v out rising to 4.0v out
1175 rpm rising to 1190 rpm
0.73A @ 945 rpm (again as before the revs drop when I do the amp reading...I have no explanation for anomalies like this)

The PSU has a rated 12v output but this checked at 10.35v
10.35v no load
10.24v load (v in)
8.75v out rising to 8.9v out
2619 rpm rising to 2670 rpm
0.84A @ 2200 rpm (why does the meter drop the speed down ?)

The torque in both tests were stronger than the original motor but less than my original build which threw a wire at 5600 rpm.

Also the motor ran a lot smoother than the 'beast'.

Still waiting for my longer bolts to clamp the end plates at which point I intend to weld the two bodies together to complete the build.

Happy hunting

mark

[Lightworker1]

Dual Pentagon Motor

Hi lightworker!

I have done 2 motors of this UFO pentagon Y wiring, one on a dual stator 5 pole and one on a Quad stator 10 pole. This style is noted for having to dangle spools of wires because you have to do 1/2 coil at a time and winding them sequentially. If I remember right I had up to 5 spools dangling (at least on the 10 pole motor) as I overlapped the wiring for each pole. Looking at your pictures I see you seem to have wound both N and S poles at one time for one coil. I went over the winding pretty well and posted some video on the Quad 10-pole that shows the process. Winding one complete coil in one step on the Y Pentagon styles will leave a big air gap in the 2-pole portion of the Y, losing the ability to pack the rotor with copper wire. This is the cause for you having to shorten your amount of wire and will cause power loss and higher amp draw problems.

Although the pentagon Y style may be the most powerful of Ufo's N-S windings (and the most difficult to wind), the Radio Shack cores of this style got about 26000 rpm max, while the unipolar got 44000 rpm in Ufo's videos. Not sure if it was on 9 or 12 volts. Either way, unipolar N-N windings look more powerful and are easier to do.

Hello sampojo
The picture of armature with a rubber band, without brushes and 1 N pole coil and 1 S pole coil was an attempt to guess how much wire one might be able to use for winding the real dual pentagon motor.
As I chose to use #28 AWG wire and I felt this exploratory step was important.



I discovered yesterday something of a surprise was the resistivity figures of my coils was somewhat out.
So I measured the average wire diameter = 0.37mm

That implied our 28 AWG wire (as per spool label) is really 27 AWG wire.



The actual method I used is well described in the UFOPOLITIC'S posts #

Ufopolitics's
08-19-2012, 12:38 PM #1466 and #4171



I too used five separate spools




and here is completed armature with two commutators etc.



This motor seems to run great. Here is a prelude video.
Right now I am working on the real part1 video of my Dual Pentagon Asymmetric Motor.
The snapshots that are shown in my previous post, are from that part 1 video.

UFOPOLITICS 5 Pole Dual Pentagon Asymmetric Y Wind Motor - YouTube

Thanks for the inquiry.

Warmest regards to all

lightworker1


Free Energy is energy that is free of charge but it must come from somewhere and be transferred to Electrical energy using some kind of Tesla circuit.

[HuntingRoss]

Baby Batteries

So. Not having a 24v supply at present, I decided to wire up 3no. 9v batteries in series...They weighed in at 30v.

Hoping to emulate UFO's baby battery demonstration I felt confident to get some useful data.

Alas they didn't auto start the motor. I spun it by hand and it was running but slowing all the time. The volts dropped within seconds.

I feel despondent.

mark

[DadHav]

LED Draw

So. Not having a 24v supply at present, I decided to wire up 3no. 9v batteries in series...They weighed in at 30v.

Hoping to emulate UFO's baby battery demonstration I felt confident to get some useful data.

Alas they didn't auto start the motor. I spun it by hand and it was running but slowing all the time. The volts dropped within seconds.

I feel despondent.

mark

Hello Mark, I doubt if this observation necessarily pertains to your video but it might be something to think about from time to time: Providing the red meter was reading the generator voltage and running the LED's, you might have experienced some current draw on your output that didn't help at your higher RPM's. You might want to try measuring current draw of your load and use two arrays in series instead of having just one. Just a thought Mark. I'm sure UFO will help you get things figured out. What I think I saw was the LED's flickering at about 2 volts. That's a little low for them to come on but there may be some radiant. When you hit 2.8 volts the bulbs looked normal then increased in brightness. At one point it looked like they reached maximum but you increased voltage to them after that. I don't think you would normally go into the 4 volt range, probably not even much into the 3 volt range. In this range you may have had some excess current draw and maybe even drag on the motor. None of what I said may even apply because I don't know where you have the capacitors but I just thought I'd mention it.
John

[HuntingRoss]

The learning curve

OK. So I add to my things 'that you should learn something new every day' , the fact that not all 'baby batteries' are born equal.

9v batteries have no amp hour rating to speak of.
AA batteries have around 2.5 Ah and
AAA batteries have around 1.0 Ah.

So I taped some AA batteries together. 2no wouldn't quite do it but 3no worked.

3no. AA -
4.76v no load
4.2v and falling slowly under load.
0.68A @ 353 rpm.
1.16v out
Stall - 0.9A 3.83v

Then I learned something else (so that's technically two things today which takes the pressure off tomorrow). When I connected V (out) to V (in) the RPM jumped way up.

3no. AA -
4.29v no load
3.62v 0.66A @ 290 rpm
Connect V (out) to V (in)
3.78v 0.31A @ 685 rpm

So back to the power supply -

10.35v no load
10.16v 0.81A @ 2030 rpm
Connect V (out)
10.15v 0.36A @ 2530 rpm

5.39v no load
5.10v 0.68A @ 677 rpm
Connect V (out)
5.09v 0.32A @ 1090 rpm

If I take the Amp meter out of the circuit the rpm for 10.35v no load is -
2655 rpm jumping to 2750 rpm connecting V (out).

And I think I have figured out why the revs dropped when I did an Amp reading. The cables must be adding resistance to the circuit. Geeze I wish I studied this more at school.

Not despondent

mark

Hi John...I think you're thinking of Lightworker's video with the LED array.

[DadHav]

OK. So I add to my things 'that you should learn something new every day' , the fact that not all 'baby batteries' are born equal.

9v batteries have no amp hour rating to speak of.
AA batteries have around 2.5 Ah and
AAA batteries have around 1.0 Ah.

So I taped some AA batteries together. 2no wouldn't quite do it but 3no worked.

3no. AA -
4.76v no load
4.2v and falling slowly under load.
0.68A @ 353 rpm.
1.16v out
Stall - 0.9A 3.83v

Then I learned something else (so that's technically two things today which takes the pressure off tomorrow). When I connected V (out) to V (in) the RPM jumped way up.

3no. AA -
4.29v no load
3.62v 0.66A @ 290 rpm
Connect V (out) to V (in)
3.78v 0.31A @ 685 rpm

So back to the power supply -

10.35v no load
10.16v 0.81A @ 2030 rpm
Connect V (out)
10.15v 0.36A @ 2530 rpm

5.39v no load
5.10v 0.68A @ 677 rpm
Connect V (out)
5.09v 0.32A @ 1090 rpm

If I take the Amp meter out of the circuit the rpm for 10.35v no load is -
2655 rpm jumping to 2750 rpm connecting V (out).

And I think I have figured out why the revs dropped when I did an Amp reading. The cables must be adding resistance to the circuit. Geeze I wish I studied this more at school.

Not despondent

mark

Hi John...I think you're thinking of Lightworker's video with the LED array.

Mark you're probably right about the LED, the comment was only trivial anyway. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this. The term "connecting the output to the input" means you have both the generator coils and the motor coils connected in parallel right? In fact aren't they interchangeable? With that being said, while used in this manner aren't both coils motor coils? In this setup the motor should run much stronger and pick up some rpm's because the resistance should go down a little bit. The savings in current draw would require some further tests right? I'm gad you're not despondent anymore. You might have something there to investigate. On the other hand doesn't your video show a separate generator on the end of the shaft. You are talking about the output from the Goldmine assembly and not a separate generator right?
J

[HuntingRoss]

Asymm Output to Input

Hi John

I've just been doing some more tests as coincidence would have it.

I think I need to get a DC clamp on meter to read amps because I keep getting anomalous readings depending where I break the circuit...but thinking about it, maybe that's right. Anyway, at least the readings above where all in the same place for comparison.

I think you're right about the motor/generator aspect being interchangeable...I was coming to this conclusion tonight when I considered where the connections were going. I got the idea from UFO's 'dual penta' video where he drilled the block of wood...I just didn't understand how the connections where working.

The boost in speed/torque and drop in amps looks worthy for my scooter project...I haven't rigged up the Prony test yet but the trick of grinding a stick works a treat and measuring the stall voltage / amps and the advantage seems to rest with the parallel connection.

I haven't built the goldmine motor. My choice was the 120w scooter motor which is a little bit bigger and less fiddly for my hands. The sloppy video I bashed up shows the output shafts from the original motors...which means I could share the output over two drive belts if needs be. The two shafts have been joined so there is no weird physics going on in the motor.

I've been trying to improve my general understanding of motors, coils etc and there is some interesting bits...one bit I found interesting is the relationship of the area of the coil to the performance of the motor...only problem is these are written for the classical model and I can't figure out how to apply this to 3 coils in a group.

So if anyone has a source for 'motors for dummies' please post links.

happy hunting

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Embarrassing admission

Apologies one and all for the misleading figures quoted last night...I blame inexperience and poor method.

Connecting the two ends of the motor in parallel does give a jump in revs and torque...BUT...there is no appreciable difference in the amp reading.

The impressive fall in amps was a result of connecting one side through the meter and the other side not.

When I did this with more rigor tonight, the mistake was obvious. Too many leads and exuberance...

However as I work my way up the voltage scale, 12.62v got the motor to 3400 rpm tonight.

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Tonights fun...

Tonight I 'got under the bonnet' of the scooter for a look see.

Two sealed lead acid batteries 12v @ 4.5Ah. Total 25.9v on the meter.

First I tested the OEM motor in situ, back wheel off the floor and amp meter connected. A small spike in the amps when the throttle was rolled open and settled to 0.85A.

Stalling this motor is very easy and the stall amps was a massive 8.5A.

Then I pulled out the batteries to connect to my new pride and joy.

With only the amp meter connected the 'beast' took 1.28A @ 5825 rpm.

Removing the amp meter and connecting to volts in and volts out the 'beast' read 23.7v in and 21.3v out @ 6400 rpm within a few revs either side.

Holding on to a piece of spinning metal doing that on the kitchen table was a first for me. And despite the speed it still runs cool.

I think with a prop connected to this motor it would haul something into the air with no trouble...it certainly felt like it was going to lift off.

WHAT a buzz.

happy hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

I am very glad , Mark.

Tonight I 'got under the bonnet' of the scooter for a look see.

Two sealed lead acid batteries 12v @ 4.5Ah. Total 25.9v on the meter.

First I tested the OEM motor in situ, back wheel off the floor and amp meter connected. A small spike in the amps when the throttle was rolled open and settled to 0.85A.

Stalling this motor is very easy and the stall amps was a massive 8.5A.

Then I pulled out the batteries to connect to my new pride and joy.

With only the amp meter connected the 'beast' took 1.28A @ 5825 rpm.

Removing the amp meter and connecting to volts in and volts out the 'beast' read 23.7v in and 21.3v out @ 6400 rpm within a few revs either side.

Holding on to a piece of spinning metal doing that on the kitchen table was a first for me. And despite the speed it still runs cool.

I think with a prop connected to this motor it would haul something into the air with no trouble...it certainly felt like it was going to lift off.

WHAT a buzz.

happy hunting

mark

Hello Mark,

I am very glad you are having fun with your new 'Beast', that you have build on your own

Now, I would like to insist, in order to take all possible measures of safety here, basically because your daughter would be driving this little scooter, this All NN Asymmetric motors have a very fast response, faster than the old symmetric types, therefore, the controllers designed for symmetry are conceived to "accelerate" according to this slower responses...but, with your new motor the acceleration would be not that smooth...so be careful...on a standing scooter type, a too fast acceleration could have the person driving it to fall backwards, unless is prepared to, balancing herself by tilting her body forward.


Kind Regards


Ufopolitics

[sim]

twisted rotor

Can a twisted rotor like the one in the picture be wound like a straight one?
Unfortunately this is the only motor i can lay my hands. (of course 2). Thanks.

[Ufopolitics]

Yes and No...

Can a twisted rotor like the one in the picture be wound like a straight one?
Unfortunately this is the only motor i can lay my hands. (of course 2). Thanks.

Hello Sim, welcome here,

A twisted shaped Rotor like that could be wound with the all North Method.

With the Pairs North South it will work, but will tend to stall/jump, cause the twisted magnetic field projection towards straight stator fields.

One main thing you should keep in mind is to wind it following the 'twisted Spiral" to go "forward" towards your desired direction of rotation, in order to take advantage of the twist and not disadvantages.

Thanks for joining in, I believe that looks like an automotive window motor, typically 10 poles...

Good luck!


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Thanks UFO...always safety first.

...on a standing scooter type, a too fast acceleration could have the person driving it to fall backwards, unless is prepared to, balancing herself by tilting her body forward.

Thanks UFO. The motor is still stuck together with tape because the longer bolts haven't arrived...grrr...But the plan is to fit the 'beast' to the scooter and do the tests you mentioned previously for heat build up in the controller and battery wires with full 24v potential. Given the OEM draws 0.9A flat out and the 'beast' draws 1.3A flat out I'm inclined to think heat build up will not be an issue.

Because of the serious amount of torque generated my next plan is to consider fitting it for field testing at 12v only which would appear to be sufficient for the moment and allow everyone to become accustomed to the capability of this motor and it's control. I could either do this by running on one battery or connecting them in parallel and doubling my rated Amp hours to 9Ah.

Despite the OEM motor's lack of torque my daughter has already commented on the backward shove...I hate to think what kind of kick the 'beast' will give.

I've also been trying to source supercaps but the choice is bewildering. Has anyone got advice on the ideal size for this kind of application ?

Best regards

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Supercaps - Hybrid battery

Finally.

Lasersaber has some good info on this -

Mini BoostPack 12V Capacitor Car Battery Update - YouTube

A small 12v pack which would fit in the existing battery area of the scooter.

mark

Zippy battery link -

Batteries & Accessories>ZIPPY Lipoly

[sim]

Thanks Ufopolitics,
Forgive me for asking too much, its because i have not worked so much on winding motors in my past working life and even after going through the threads, i seem to have missed the all North method. However i have gone back to see what i missed behind. Please point me to a particular thread if you remember it.
I have studied Mechanical Engineering with a bit of electrical, Electronics and computer science. Also English is not my first language, so please correct me if i say something the wrong way.

Best regards
Sim.