My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Midaztouch]

Midas, In the early posts several people including myself wound the first motor all north and it didn't work and we where made fun of for making the mistake, but it all makes sense. 4 legs all producing the same pole is to many to work right?
John

Hi John

Yes, I think 4 legs will not work properly. To clarify things. How did you wind the 5pole with 4 legs? One big coil or two coils or...?


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[HuntingRoss]

Once again, thank you UFO

I stripped the beast this morning and wound it with my wrong assumptions. Just completed it about 30 minutes ago and then plugged it in to 5v.

There was a small kick but that was it...apart from heat build up.

On the up side though. My coil pairs are wound just as you describe (all north) with 14 turns per coil (28 the pair) giving about 0.8 ohms. And there is room for maybe 20 per coil.

I connected each pair to its respective comm element and jumped 4 together so I just need to undo that bit and it might work.

My timing looks just about the same...the P1 comm aligns with the P1 slot 180 degrees apart.

I shall adjust this, probably by tomorrow night.

Best regards

mark

Edit. Nope....actually my timing is wrong...the brushes are on the magnet bisector...so I will adjust accordingly.

[Ufopolitics]

Negative Mark...

OK. So I've been trawling for 'all north pairs' and found this from UFO on north-south pairs. If I understand this I just need to wind the south in the other direction to make them both north...seems obvious.

Hello Mark,

Sorry about this, ...but your assumptions are wrong my friend...

It is not just about changing all the South Coils to North Coils and vualá it will do the All North Pairs conversion...nope...it will work...but not as expected.

On the other assumption :

It also seems to be that 4 (four) comm segments are connected as 1 (one).



still hunting

mark

Not right either, all commutator elements are SEPARATED to each INDEPENDENT PAIR...I did this Color Legend (below on Graphic) just to notice which Groups are at Generating side and which at Motor Stage in the Timing sequence.

In the All North Pairs is much easier...

[IMG][/IMG]

Above is a P-10 All North...and in your 12 Pole:

[IMG][/IMG]

So, I do not want you to keep struggling all by yourself here, and going wrong ways...so, You get rid of Coil Number Two (2) PLUS expand to SIX TOTAL POLES in the Pair (3+3) (instead of FIVE TOTAL in your previous Group), and...just a bit of "tweaking"...to get the timing right

Here you will have a wider North (and so a wider South on the other end at 180º, but don't stop thinking here about what is not shown...)

Use ALL the wire you could split in half between each two poles...and start playing with the alignment towards more repulse, here on diagram is set at Neutral Fire, right between both stator poles bottom gap....and your needle to adjust timing here is based on the common slot at Pairs Center, where P# are written.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

OK. So I've been trawling for 'all north pairs' and found this from UFO on north-south pairs. If I understand this I just need to wind the south in the other direction to make them both north...seems obvious.

It also seems to be that 4 (four) comm segments are connected as 1 (one).

[IMG][/IMG]

still hunting

mark

[Lightworker1]

Hello to All,

Like I have written before...I have been very busy working on a fascinating material I will be displaying very soon on a separate Thread...not related to Motors, but to Generators...and actually, not even specifically about Generating Machines...but, about a very new, novel way to Induce Electricity from Magnetic Fields...yes, another type of Induction.

This Induction is completely different from all we know so far...so, Machines that uses this concept are also very different...

I am working on building small scale Models to demonstrate all it could do...plus all related written Diagrams and Graphic/Visual Material.


This is a reason why I have not been that "active" on this Thread as before...

At the same token, I really do not have the time either -at this stage- to be that active, on simple structured Motor Designs explanations and responses.


...and I hope you will understand when you all see what am talking about...


All I recommend is to tighten your seat belts, for the ride is coming soon...


Kind Regards to All


Ufopolitics

Hello Our Dear Friend UFO, take as much time you need and we are waiting patiently. It is the first wave of project that takes most of time.

Best of very good luck.


WARMEST REGARDS

lightworker

Nikola Tesla quote:
“If the genius of invention were to reveal to-morrow the secret of immortality, of eternal beauty and youth, for which all humanity is aching, the same inexorable agents which prevent a mass from changing suddenly its velocity would likewise resist the force of the new knowledge until time gradually modifies human thought.”

[HuntingRoss]

Beast #3.1

Thanks UFO

I was about to post the following when I noticed your post.

My problem is being able to build a motor to exact spec as I have no equipment to press out shafts and replace with longer ones. The OEM motor has no space at the bottom for an extra comm. My very first 'quick and dirty' build used the salvage wire from the OEM but only four turns per coil (12 per group) so the resistance was way down. It did work as you may remember...it ran like a horse and when I stepped it up from 5v to 10v it threw a wire and met its demise.

I understand your concern about rotor mass, but the mass runs quickly up to full speed and after a stall test accelerates back to max almost instantly. So I'm not sure the mass is as much of an impediment to performance as you think.

The reduction in wire length from #2 to #3 is one turn per coil (3 per group) which is not ideal but has not had a huge impact on the figures. If I was getting better figures on these tests I would wind them to 15 or 16 per coil which is the max I can achive for this gauge (refer to 1 comm asym build).

I am interested in your alternative 'Pairs' build although I have never been clear what that means when seen it mentioned in other posts. I have an idea but it's not as clear as the groups of 3 to me. I also understand you have many other things going on behind the scenes with limited time to fault find results. So I appreciate your time on this.

So to my latest result.

From above -

A 10v PSU torque test between OEM and Beast #2.

OEM. 0.655kg @ 100mm. Stall amps 9.6
Beast #2. 0.200kg @ 100mm. Stall amps 8.3

Beast #3 (2 stators) -

10.34v PSU no load
10.21v @ 1.60A @ 3210 rpm with 8.45v out
0.220kg @ 100mm. Stall amps 9.0.

For clartity then. OEM is 1 (one) stator. Beast #1 and #2 are 2 (two) stators in the the original OEM body welded back-to-back.

Beast #3 above is 2 (two) stators with the middle gap between the laminations removed to make one contiguous lamination stack.

Beast #3.1 (now) is 1 (one) stator in the original OEM body with the second stator removed. The overall armature / body length has not changed from Beast #3.

10.31v PSU no load
10.13v @ 1.98A @ 4975 rpm with 8.2v out
0.220kg @ 100mm. Stall amps not measured.

Timing for all these motors is as illustrated in UFO's post -

4-All North Groups...Now, if you wanna go for "the Gold"...since you have started on this Thread at this stage...then do this type:

[IMG][/IMG]

And confirmed -

Originally Posted by HuntingRoss. I don't think I have to do much adjustment to the design.

If I'm understanding the subject...I just need to make sure that as comm G1 is coming onto the brush that G1 coil 1 bisector is past the centre of the magnet.

YES!!...You've got it perfectly well!!
That is the MAIN part for Machine to work perfectly timed!

Happy hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

About me now...

Hello to All,

Like I have written before...I have been very busy working on a fascinating material I will be displaying very soon on a separate Thread...not related to Motors, but to Generators...and actually, not even specifically about Generating Machines...but, about a very new, novel way to Induce Electricity from Magnetic Fields...yes, another type of Induction.

This Induction is completely different from all we know so far...so, Machines that uses this concept are also very different...

I am working on building small scale Models to demonstrate all it could do...plus all related written Diagrams and Graphic/Visual Material.


This is a reason why I have not been that "active" on this Thread as before...

At the same token, I really do not have the time either -at this stage- to be that active, on simple structured Motor Designs explanations and responses.


...and I hope you will understand when you all see what am talking about...


All I recommend is to tighten your seat belts, for the ride is coming soon...


Kind Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Testing comparisons...

After much re-engineering and rebuilding. I introduce Beast #3.

No middle gap in the armature, 11 turns 3 poles per coil, 3 coils per group, 12 groups. This is salvaged wire from the 12 turn Beast #1 which built #2 with 9 turns...so I'm losing length each time !!

From above -


Todays results -
10.34v PSU no load
10.21v @ 1.60A @ 3210 rpm with 8.45v out
0.220kg @ 100mm. Stall amps 9.0.

The only thing that would distinguish this build from other replications is I have the stators from both original motors welded back to back.

To remove that anomaly I would have to either remove one set of magnets from the build or turn them around to be front to back and thereby eliminating the repulsion force in the middle.

I need to ponder how to achieve that.

mark

Hello Mark,

It seems you still have Two rotors and two stators attached/stacked vertically on all your "Beasts" testings...while having every time much less wire to wrap coils...

One thing you most realize: Symmetrical Motors Energize ALL Coils in the Armature/Rotor every second of rotation, meaning, at all time...they divide N-S through the plane derived from the brushes position. So, every time one coil passes this plane it will reverse polarity from previous one.

Second, You are using MORE MASS of Rotor for about the same type of wire, with lesser turns.


Why don't you try the following:

Build an Asymmetrical Motor with SAME, EXACT sized Rotor as OEM, and SAME, EXACT STATORS LENGTH as OEM. This way You will have the same Steel Mass to rotate as OEM.

Use as many turns as you could possible be able to fit on the Rotor Space allowance per each Coil/Group.

Try to use SAME or Higher Gauge wire (coarser, thicker) than OEM.

If this still will keep Asymmetric under OEM in your tests...then we will move to All North Pairs, not Groups of Three, but just Two Coils, and I will give you detailed Diagrams...but using same space, except you will be wrapping Two Coils using the spacef your previous Three Coils took...this will strengthen concentrate the magnetic field bisector/higher density ...while you could use more wire.

To me it seems an issue with very weak magnetic fields on rotor what is rendering those results, it could be due to few issues...One and main...too little wire (too small amount of turns per coil(s))...and on top of that you have more mass/weight to rotate due to double rotor attached together...while STRONGER Magnetic Fields coming from Dual, vertically stacked together Stators. That is why I suggested to go for same structure as OEM.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

Ufo

I'm bored! I want to build something but I only motor I have is the huge Imperial. Copper wire and test equipment are super expensive & special order in Japan!

The used stuff is just a few dollars less but very outdated and witten in all Japanese. Japan is run by giant tech companies and Universities.


Don't worry, I will reread you answer several more times

[Ufopolitics]

Very short answer/question for a very long explanation......

Ufo,

I'm learning as we go but... Let me see if I'm getting this straight. If P1 is wind north using 2 poles then connected to the comms using the factory brush settings then P2, P3 - P5 the same... the motor won't work

It doesn't make sense to me


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Midaz,

On your previous post you wrote:

Why didn't the 5pole have five separate Uni-Polar coil, just like the 3Pole? Why did you make pairs? How is the gen action affected?

I understood that question as making Five SEPARATE Coils, One Coil per each Pole (Unipolar Coil), as the Three Poles is built.

Am I right up to here?

I made "Pairs" because of the SIZE LENGTH in Rotor Coils versus Stators LENGTH...are you reading me or just trying to get your answer(s) while ignoring my explanations?

And if you are referring to wrapping just One Coil per Two Poles, STILL, you will be forced to Overlap them.


But, I have a better suggestion Midaz...why don't You build it, then test it and compare it to the Typical build?


Is the only and real way to know.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

Ufo,


I'm learning as we go but... Let me see if I'm getting this straight. If P1 is wind north using 2 poles then connected to the comms and using the factory brush settings then P2, P3 - P5 the same... the motor won't work

It doesn't make sense to me

It seemed to me that the motor should run fine the way I propose... Well, the only motor I've built is the Imperal NS. Yes, I need more building experience


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Ufopolitics]

Wrong understanding...leads to wrong conclusions...

Ufo,

I asked questions about this statement before but they weren't answered...

Hello Midaz,

Sorry, I missed those questions...thought I did respond...but let's do it now.

(1)3pole has three separate Uni-Polar Coil. It's focused on repulsion, attraction is secondary. Plus you got max turns.... 5pole has Uni-Polar Coil "Pairs". Paris focuses in on attraction and repulsion. Attraction takes coil turns away from repulsion. Attraction is weak?!

(1)That is a WRONG Understanding Midaz:

The Three Pole has 50/50 Attract/Repulse

If you look again at the N1 being fired, plus the circumference of the commutator element....then you realize N1 starts with majority of Repulse....then as it gradually moves towards the CENTER/NEUTRAL POINT as IS SET IN DIAGRAM ABOVE, then N1 starts (from that point on) to Higher Percentage of ATTRACT Mode, while Repulsion decreases because getting further from Source.

As long as We have North-South Stators in ANY given Motor, We'll ALWAYS have at least a portion of Attract Mode.


I have tested ALL NORTH STATORS as well (In order to be based ONLY on Repulse)...it DON'T WORK.

Attraction is NOT weak at all, Attract-Repulse are Two completely different forces.

Repulse is an ENDLESS, NOT LIMITED Force while Attraction IS LIMITED by the attraction SOURCE, reaching too close this "Space Limitation" renders bad or weak Motor performance.

Attraction REQUIRES to be turned OFF, BEFORE reaching the Attract Source Space.
Repulsion is a PUSH FORCE that is born from the Source, so, it is not limited at all.

Using BOTH FORCES with proper Timing is an advantage to obtain better performance...In the case of our ALL NN Motors, REPULSE is our starting or "Ignition" Force and Attract is our Assisting or Secondary Force. Both Forces are ALWAYS utilized.

Why didn't the 5pole have five separate Uni-Polar coil, just like the 3Pole? Why did you make pairs? How is the gen action affected?

If You look at the CIRCUMFERENCE LENGTH of the Three Pole COMPARED to the CIRCUMFERENCE LENGTH of the Stators, You will realize they are exactly or about the SAME OR VERY CLOSE LENGTH.

Unfortunately, this ratio does NOT happen on the Five Pole...due to its Geometry...and so on...the more number of poles Machines...the more teeth/poles we will need to include/comprehend in our coils,pairs or groups to EQUALIZE the LENGTH OF STATOR(S). Then We are FORCED to OVERLAP Coils, Pairs or Groups... in order to reach ROBUST and CONSTANT Rotation, Power and Speed in smaller Time Frames.

The Protocols of Motor's Magnetic Interactions MUST comply with this rule, meaning, EQUAL or about the same CIRCUMFERENCE LENGTH between STATORS and ENERGIZED/INTERACTING ROTOR COILS.

This Protocol rule obeys to TWO MAIN facts:

1- The Intensity/Strength of Both Interacting Magnetic Fields (Rotor and Stators) MUST BE BALANCED, towards EQUAL FORCES.

2- The TRAVELING CIRCUMFERENCE from ON to OFF (Energizing On to Turning Off Coils, Pairs or Groups), MUST comply with the Commutator's Elements Circumference, in order to apply this Actions at the perfect Timing. This will prevent from Rotor to "tend" to approach too much to a LOCKING POSITION (BISECTORS MATCH), that will kill performance, even if Rotor does not get to lock position, but close enough.

So, if We wrap the Five Pole Motor (as an example) with Individual Coils (per each pole, or five SMALLER coils)...it simply will NOT work because the two facts written above.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Hope You understand all this post/explanation Midaz.

Only experience/practice in building several motors of different sizes, poles, etc...leads you not to assume, nor get to wrong conclusions..."this way could be better" or "could it be done this way...?"...etc,etc.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Some activity to report

Hey gang, been hanging out on the my-motors thread building my AMC (Asym. Motor Controller). Burnt out a mosfet pretty quick going to a 30v power supply on a broke motor not-ready-for-prime-time, hung brush, and brush hanging by a copper strand. Left the power up at max when I switched off the 12v supply, fried a FET in an instant.

SOOOO patching my boards to do quad FETs, note this pic has the one board on the left with TWO heat sinks. That will go on the inside. Then I will put two FETs on the bottom of the other board and cut a hole in the side of the cover. Note the fan at the bottom on the left. Only room for three heat sinks there when reconfigured.



New panel meter on the front, will just measure one circuit, up to 20A.



Planning a Quad unipolar on my GM window motors. This one ran hot around 8000 rpm on the Bent Y Quad Pentagon 10-pole winding (blue rotor), under one ohm per coil, hit 130deg. Planning to litz the white rotor on 2-32ga about 16", wound kinda tight to get more resistance, maybe over 1 ohm. Gotta build two more boards too...



Will use this winding

[Midaztouch]

Midas, referring to the 2 five leg drawings above, are you saying the top drawing shows 4 legs wound north and south to form 4/5 of the armature having two legs each north and south? while the second picture shows 3 legs wound to form 3/5 of the armature to form a single pole? There's a big difference between the two windings.

That is correct

4 legs all producing the same pole is to many to work right?

I think so

By the way when I wound the RS motor all north as shown back around the 6957 post I had similar results to what I think Mark mentioned as it pertained to less power than the original. I will admit, as you say, it was smooth but the power wasn't there for me.

By the nature of this NN wind & timing, it looks like it should be less torque than the NS

This is the same winding on the 6957 and here right? UFO, no one would dispute your build so why don't you provide the comparison between the two motors? All you need is a small propeller and a prop adapter along with about 15 minutes of your time to test the two motors.
John

Hi John

Looking at P1 on both 5pole images above

The NS and NN motors have two winds at P1. I think that P1 should be one north wind that covers two poles/legs.
One wind would give more space to use a thicker gauge wire with about the same number of turns
focused on the repulsion force. Also staying near the specs of .7 ohms resistance.
P1 ~ P5 should have one coil wind each.

*For "fair testing", use the same wire gauge as the factory motor
*This would be a third option for asymmetric motors @ 2/5

RPMs under load? More torque under load? Does it still generate comparable power/voltage?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[DadHav]

Ufo,

I asked questions about this statement before but they weren't answered...

3pole has three separate Uni-Polar Coil. It's focused on repulsion, attraction is secondary. Plus you got max turns.... 5pole has Uni-Polar Coil "Pairs". Paris focuses in on attraction and repulsion. Attraction takes coil turns away from repulsion. Attraction is weak?!

Why didn't the 5pole have five separate Uni-Polar coil, just like the 3Pole? Why did you make pairs? How is the gen action affected?


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Midas, referring to the 2 five leg drawings above, are you saying the top drawing shows 4 legs wound north and south to form 4/5 of the armature having two legs each north and south? while the second picture shows 3 legs wound to form 3/5 of the armature to form a single pole? There's a big difference between the two windings. In the early posts several people including myself wound the first motor all north and it didn't work and we where made fun of for making the mistake, but it all makes sense. 4 legs all producing the same pole is to many to work right? By the way when I wound the RS motor all north as shown back around the 6957 post I had similar results to what I think Mark mentioned as it pertained to less power than the original. I will admit, as you say, it was smooth but the power wasn't there for me. This is the same winding on the 6957 and here right? UFO, no one would dispute your build so why don't you provide the comparison between the two motors? All you need is a small propeller and a prop adapter along with about 15 minutes of your time to test the two motors.
John