My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[DadHav]

Hi UFO. Thank you once again for the in depth and technical response. I feel like such a fraud as this is way past the edge of my experience but I will risk burning my fingers in the name of progress.

One thing occurs to me though. Is there a place for going old school and simply fitting a rheostat type throttle and accept some loss in heat ?

5K Ohm Electric Scooter, Bicycle, and Go Kart Throttles - ElectricScooterParts.com

No electronics to fry in the setup requiring kill switch ?

Comments in red below.

Hello Mark, I'm sure UFO will give you the info on the link, but what you're seeing at say 5K ohms is not a rheostat it's more than likely the control pot to operate the speed control. I don't always read things real close but maybe you need to think about something. If adapting your motor to the scooter for testing has become to complicated to be practical you might want to go back to square one and try testing to see if the modified motor will actually perform better than an OEM. If you have a motor that is wound correctly and the brushes all check to be energizing the coils correctly you can still test two motors without the scooter No? See what UFO says.
J
PS. There's something I like to do sometimes. After I'm sure my brushes are run-in and seated I set my power supply to an appropriately low current level, something like maybe only 200 ma. A small battery might also work. I connect one commutator to the power supply and rotate the armature to feel the energy of the coils reacting with the magnets. Sometimes I put a scope across the the motor to see how much noise or interruptions there is as the armature is turned. This is just a little different than using a continuity checker but gives you a chance to find weak or unenergized fields.
Just a few suggestions Mark, hang in there.

[HuntingRoss]

It's making more sense now

Hi UFO. Thank you once again for the in depth and technical response. I feel like such a fraud as this is way past the edge of my experience but I will risk burning my fingers in the name of progress.

One thing occurs to me though. Is there a place for going old school and simply fitting a rheostat type throttle and accept some loss in heat ?

5K Ohm Electric Scooter, Bicycle, and Go Kart Throttles - ElectricScooterParts.com

No electronics to fry in the setup requiring kill switch ?

Comments in red below.

Hello Mark,

Exactly, normally the brake handle micro switch could have two options, just kill the controller output or also to run a "regenerative braking" through a secondary circuit, in either case controller is not sending power to motor, but receiving whatever energy motor sends back. So that switch was fooling your bench tests applying the brakes...This explains why the lever got to a certain position and just stopped the wheel. I thought I was on the edge of the stall point !!

When you mentioned that controller accelerating the asymmetric motor was 'smooth'...this was fine and great but also meant controller was not sending full power from source to motor...and this ends in the lack of speed and acceleration. This is making a lot more sense now.

You could test controller output without any of the motors connected, and see how many volts it is outputting at full throttle, as well as the starting Volts when throttle is smoothly being depressed. Connect Voltmeter leads to the controller leads to the motor, are two, one is just straight positive, while the other is the Drain from MOSFET's, normally the white or blue are positive...while black is the drain...but your meter will show a minus sign if it is connected in reverse.The leads to the motor from the controller are red and black so I'll connect there. I was looking at other controllers this evening and there is a large range. The OEM fitted appears to be the simple 180w model in the controller section of that link above.

Some controllers are designed with a "smart IC" that reduces output power whenever too high reverse flow energy is detected...protecting the device. As well as you could notice a small 'delay' from the time you fully depress throttle to the time it takes to send power to motor.

Before start 'hunting' for another controller I would do some tests...

1-Try draining some unused energy out of your asymmetric motor by connecting the positive output to the positive of batteries and the negative output through a DIODE to the negative of batteries [ Motor Out (-)--l<--(-)Batt. Neg ], diode will prevent from output coils to be energized from batteries, so flow will only run back to batteries. Diode must be rated above the running Voltage/Amperage, and preferably an ultra-fast switching diode like an UF505. Please run also a kill switch to the positive wire from batteries to motor output in case diode goes bad and closes out circuit.

2-You could test with the connections you have mentioned before, by jumping the two rear connectors and feeding motor through the top terminals...the problem here is that you would not have as much power/speed as running it through normal input...but your breaker should not trip since amperage would be reduced.This would be a quick test to do...Should be able to knock that out tomorrow.

3- Some Controllers have a small sealed hole with a plug, where you could adjust the acceleration or output of controller with a flat screw like adjustment. Maybe the manual mentions that...but they have "Warnings factory settings!!" do not open or warranty void, bla,bla,bla... Exactly right...it has a sticker over the rear plate which appears to be fixed with just 4 screws.

I thought that your OEM Motor when loaded will increase to 8 A...but sometimes readings are not accurate...and could be less in OEM or more in the asymmetric type...Also correct...One of my bench tests took the OEM above 8A very easily as it neared stall speed...

For a last option before getting another controller...If the controller is not completely and heavily sealed, in order that opening it would not have to destroy it...you could open it and look at the type of FET's it have and how many?...then look on line for FET's specifications...since it is a pretty low power wattage controller, factory normally installs just two or three Parallel FET's...and by increasing the FET's Bank...you will be 'upgrading' your controller to deal/handle higher amperage than normally rated by two or three FET's would do.This does sound a little past my skills but taking a look inside is worth it and only voids the warranty.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[DadHav]

Hi John



Right. I didn't know that. Which makes me wonder about the figures I've been reading off...Doh...I should stick to my day job.



In a very dim and distant past I vaguely remember shunts...I feel the need to read more on the subject...

Thanks for the tips John

mark

Mark, don't beat up on yourself, You're here to learn and teach as well. I can contribute small things that you should know or will find out yourself and I'm here to learn from what you will find out with your testing.
J

[HuntingRoss]

Learning all the time

Hi John

you should know to check the resistance of your leads and subtract it from your total resistance readings right?

Right. I didn't know that. Which makes me wonder about the figures I've been reading off...Doh...I should stick to my day job.

On the amp meter situation there's also something you could try. In many of my videos you will see a 1 ohm resistor in a heat sink in series with the load. you can buy these for a few bucks ready to go. I use this as a current shunt that will give you an exact current reading if you connect your meter and have it on the millivolt range. If you want even less resistance in the circuit you can use a strip of old junk steel material and adjust to length to be something convenient like maybe .1 ohm or something.

In a very dim and distant past I vaguely remember shunts...I feel the need to read more on the subject...

Thanks for the tips John

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Yes, that was what I was referring to...

Hi UFO. To give an accurate answer to this earlier I referred to the user manual.

However. On taking a closer look at the brake lever there is indeed a micro switch running down to the controller.

That is now disconnected and new brake test conducted. At around 8A the breaker tripped...I tested again and tried to hold it just below 8A. The breaker held BUT I nearly fried the multimeter leads, it was quite an extended run. Still I would expect something designed to test 10A would have leads capable of same.

I presume this means the need for a new controller and circuit breaker...but this doesn't seem to explain the lack of speed and acceleration on the down gradient ?

Thank you for trouble shooting this UFO.

best regards

mark

Hello Mark,

Exactly, normally the brake handle micro switch could have two options, just kill the controller output or also to run a "regenerative braking" through a secondary circuit, in either case controller is not sending power to motor, but receiving whatever energy motor sends back. So that switch was fooling your bench tests applying the brakes...

When you mentioned that controller accelerating the asymmetric motor was 'smooth'...this was fine and great but also meant controller was not sending full power from source to motor...and this ends in the lack of speed and acceleration.

You could test controller output without any of the motors connected, and see how many volts it is outputting at full throttle, as well as the starting Volts when throttle is smoothly being depressed. Connect Voltmeter leads to the controller leads to the motor, are two, one is just straight positive, while the other is the Drain from MOSFET's, normally the white or blue are positive...while black is the drain...but your meter will show a minus sign if it is connected in reverse.

Some controllers are designed with a "smart IC" that reduces output power whenever too high reverse flow energy is detected...protecting the device. As well as you could notice a small 'delay' from the time you fully depress throttle to the time it takes to send power to motor.

Before start 'hunting' for another controller I would do some tests...

1-Try draining some unused energy out of your asymmetric motor by connecting the positive output to the positive of batteries and the negative output through a DIODE to the negative of batteries [ Motor Out (-)--l<--(-)Batt. Neg ], diode will prevent from output coils to be energized from batteries, so flow will only run back to batteries. Diode must be rated above the running Voltage/Amperage, and preferably an ultra-fast switching diode like an UF505. Please run also a kill switch to the positive wire from batteries to motor output in case diode goes bad and closes out circuit.

2-You could test with the connections you have mentioned before, by jumping the two rear connectors and feeding motor through the top terminals...the problem here is that you would not have as much power/speed as running it through normal input...but your breaker should not trip since amperage would be reduced.

3- Some Controllers have a small sealed hole with a plug, where you could adjust the acceleration or output of controller with a flat screw like adjustment. Maybe the manual mentions that...but they have "Warnings factory settings!!" do not open or warranty void, bla,bla,bla...

I thought that your OEM Motor when loaded will increase to 8 A...but sometimes readings are not accurate...and could be less in OEM or more in the asymmetric type...

For a last option before getting another controller...If the controller is not completely and heavily sealed, in order that opening it would not have to destroy it...you could open it and look at the type of FET's it have and how many?...then look on line for FET's specifications...since it is a pretty low power wattage controller, factory normally installs just two or three Parallel FET's...and by increasing the FET's Bank...you will be 'upgrading' your controller to deal/handle higher amperage than normally rated by two or three FET's would do.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[DadHav]

Hi UFO. To give an accurate answer to this earlier I referred to the user manual.

However. On taking a closer look at the brake lever there is indeed a micro switch running down to the controller.

That is now disconnected and new brake test conducted. At around 8A the breaker tripped...I tested again and tried to hold it just below 8A. The breaker held BUT I nearly fried the multimeter leads, it was quite an extended run. Still I would expect something designed to test 10A would have leads capable of same.

I presume this means the need for a new controller and circuit breaker...but this doesn't seem to explain the lack of speed and acceleration on the down gradient ?

Thank you for trouble shooting this UFO.

best regards

mark

Hi Mark, I hear Ya on the test leads which reminds me, you should know to check the resistance of your leads and subtract it from your total resistance readings right? On the amp meter situation there's also something you could try. In many of my videos you will see a 1 ohm resistor in a heat sink in series with the load. you can buy these for a few bucks ready to go. I use this as a current shunt that will give you an exact current reading if you connect your meter and have it on the millivolt range. If you want even less resistance in the circuit you can use a strip of old junk steel material and adjust to length to be something convenient like maybe .1 ohm or something. Corrections welcome on those ideas.
J

[HuntingRoss]

Brake micro switch

Some Scooters have the brake connected through a micro switch to the controller, in order to turn it off, or decelerate it...if your Scooter have that...then applying brakes won't do it.

Hi UFO. To give an accurate answer to this earlier I referred to the user manual.

However. On taking a closer look at the brake lever there is indeed a micro switch running down to the controller.

That is now disconnected and new brake test conducted. At around 8A the breaker tripped...I tested again and tried to hold it just below 8A. The breaker held BUT I nearly fried the multimeter leads, it was quite an extended run. Still I would expect something designed to test 10A would have leads capable of same.

I presume this means the need for a new controller and circuit breaker...but this doesn't seem to explain the lack of speed and acceleration on the down gradient ?

Thank you for trouble shooting this UFO.

best regards

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Still exploring. Pursuing the single commutator asymmetric motor.

This was the bench test for today.

The notation is such that V1 in (+ve) and V2 out (-ve) are the top comm and V1 out (-ve) and V2 in (+ve) are the bottom comm. This is the method for achieving + volts in AND + volts out in the two comm asymmetric motor.

So connecting V1 out to V2 in as both (-ve) simulating all bottom wires wound on to the bottom shaft (no second commutator).

PSU Volts no load = 10.32v.

Motor connected.

Voltage between V1 in (+ve) top comm and V1 out (-ve) bottom comm = 10.11v.

Note : V1 out (-ve) connected to V2 in (-ve) both are currently on the bottom comm.

Voltage between V2 in (-ve) bottom comm and V2 out (+ve) top comm = -7.40v.

Note : The V2 in (-ve) bottom comm is MORE (+ve) then the V2 out top comm.

Voltage between V1 in top comm and V2 out top comm = 17.40v.

Motor speed = 2186 rpm.

Connecting the OEM motor between V1 in and V2 out (top comm) 17.40v no load.

OEM runs under load at 15.98v / 0.22A @ 2252 rpm.

Curious n'es pas ?

So I'm going to get a single sacrificial scooter motor and wind it with one comm and earth all bottom wires to the shaft and see what can be achieved.

Under this test one can either take out 7.40v or 17.40v if desired AND take the torque from the shaft.

When I tried to stall the OEM motor the 'beast' slowed in tandem but the amps draw looked somwhere in the 2A - 3A range (fluctuating).

Happy hunting

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Journey to discovery

Thanks UFO. I've clipped my responses in red next to your questions / comments.

Good idea Mark, I will do the same...





Some Scooters have the brake connected through a micro switch to the controller, in order to turn it off, or decelerate it...if your Scooter have that...then applying brakes won't do it. The scooter has a hub brake on the rear wheel. So no electronics involved.

Some rubber strap (a heavy duty one) could be wrapped around rear wheel and to a tensioner or "come along" tool, then attached to a firm hook on the other side.







The difference seems not to be an issue then...Probably not. Your original description was to calculate half the resistance of the total wire in the OEM motor...unfortunately I had already chopped it. If 4m approx is one coil the 24m would be half the motor (4m x 6 coils). My wind has around 12m of higher resistance...how much higher I'm not certain. At 1.2 - 1.4 ohms it is likely to be less than the OEM but I agree...not likely to be an issue.





Yes, that is a great advantage!

Then disregard the rear bracket as possible misalignment between gears...







That is great! (the response from throttle)
And, yes, just the Input while Output not connected is a better way to start.

When you add both, Input plus Output the Machine has no way to 'exhaust' the excess of energy...so heating and rising amp draw starts. Normally Output could be switched momentarily into input via a manual switch to boost speed.Like the old 'kick down' or overdrive switches on sports saloons. Neat.



Just go over again in the "mounting end"...make sure the motor is freely rotating when you tight all mounting bolts and the ones that attach to scooter plate.Checked...all was good and free running.

Run a ground leak test from each coil group, and you do not need to take motor apart, just rotate it slowly, while marking the starting side on shaft, so it would be a terminal to ground and the other to one input terminal.Apologies. Now I'm going to sound green. Do I disconnect the motor from the battery...or do I disconnect one lead from the motor and put the meter in line like an amp test ?

Another test is to see if you have any open coils... rotating it while having the continuity meter attached to just both input terminals.Checked this several times and all checks out. I actually did this after the first bench test to make sure no wires had been thrown.

There must be something wrong there Mark, that is not normal at all.

I have driven my BOSCH/BADSEY Scooter with just an R/C Lithium Pack that fits in my pocket...and hauling it.For clarity, you have run a scooter with the Bosch motor ? ... Damn...now I NEED to get this thing working and we can both burn some rubber.

So, be patient till we find what's wrong.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks UFO. I've clipped in previous posts with my response so I can try and keep a trail going in my mind as this thread stands at 239 pages so far...very long.

Good idea Mark, I will do the same...

I tried a wood block for resistance but it started to burn under the load and it was starting to shred the PU tyre, so the applied load was under braking pressure hovering just above stall speed.

Some Scooters have the brake connected through a micro switch to the controller, in order to turn it off, or decelerate it...if your Scooter have that...then applying brakes won't do it.

Some rubber strap (a heavy duty one) could be wrapped around rear wheel and to a tensioner or "come along" tool, then attached to a firm hook on the other side.

The OEM wire is 0.5mm or slightly more but I never tried to check the resistance before I chopped it out. However the sacrificial wire from one coil was about 4.3m long. The first build of my motor used almost exactly the same amound per group which was 4 turns per pole, 12 turns total per group. The current build was summarised -



My math being : 3 coils of 4 winds = 12 turns = 4m therefore 3 coils of 12 winds = 36 turns = 12m therefore 12 x 0.121 ohms = 1.4 ohm. My meter seemed to be in 'the ball park' although I had some problem with decimal point !!

The difference seems not to be an issue then...

The beauty of this experiment is plugging in the new for the old is a straight swap. Same three (3) mounting bolts with the same spacers keeping exact same belt alignment. So no added tension or resistance in the drive train. The rear of the OEM motor projects slightly through a tolerance fit circular hole cut in the left of the chassis. The effect of this is the motor is supported by cantilever and no additional bracket is required to support the eccentric weight...which is really neat...I didn't want to start hacking or modifying the scooter.

Yes, that is a great advantage!

Then disregard the rear bracket as possible misalignment between gears...

The bench test seemed to equate very closely to the OEM figures which gave me confidence to 'go for it'. The performance and response of the throttle was actually very smooth which pleasantly surprised me given your comment, which again gave me hope that it was all within tolerance.



As advised for the first run the output wires were not connected to simplify matters...had they been connected I not certain this would have improved the situation.

That is great! (the response from throttle)
And, yes, just the Input while Output not connected is a better way to start.

When you add both, Input plus Output the Machine has no way to 'exhaust' the excess of energy...so heating and rising amp draw starts. Normally Output could be switched momentarily into input via a manual switch to boost speed.

I'm at a loss myself to explain the lack lustre response of the 'beast'. If one can't reasonably project the performance of bench tests to field tests, it makes it hard to know what motor configuration will give the best performance.

I know at times I have over simplified by hypothesis...but faced with superior torque alone, I can't explain why it didn't out erform the OEM even if it drained the batteries faster (for example).

Still curiously hunting

mark

Just go over again in the "mounting end"...make sure the motor is freely rotating when you tight all mounting bolts and the ones that attach to scooter plate.

Run a ground leak test from each coil group, and you do not need to take motor apart, just rotate it slowly, while marking the starting side on shaft, so it would be a terminal to ground and the other to one input terminal.

Another test is to see if you have any open coils... rotating it while having the continuity meter attached to just both input terminals.

There must be something wrong there Mark, that is not normal at all.

I have driven my BOSCH/BADSEY Scooter with just an R/C Lithium Pack that fits in my pocket...and hauling it.

So, be patient till we find what's wrong.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Baffled

Thanks UFO. I've clipped in previous posts with my response so I can try and keep a trail going in my mind as this thread stands at 239 pages so far...very long.

1- Did You run a test on the Asymmetric Motor, like I recommended previously, mounted ON Scooter, using Scooter controller-throttle-batteries in a bench and applying a mechanical load to the lifted rear wheel (meaning, trying to stop it with a piece of wood or something else) ?

I tried a wood block for resistance but it started to burn under the load and it was starting to shred the PU tyre, so the applied load was under braking pressure hovering just above stall speed.

Gear ratios first. The motor has a 16 tooth 8mm D bore cog, the rear wheel has an 88 tooth cog...giving a gear ratio of 5.5 : 1.

The wheel is 140mm diameter 440mm circumference (these figures will be rounded). With the back wheel off the floor the OEM motor, on full throttle, spins at 640 rpm...I make that 16.896 km/h...not 20 km/h as stated in the spec which must be an 'under load' spec to be meaningful ! The controller heat sink was a cool 21.9C with braking load.

The 'beast' is now installed ready for 'road' testing later this weekend. The figures for that are, on full throttle...1060 rpm which works out to be 27.984 km/h (no load). The heat sink starting temp was 20.1C rising to 21.3C under braking load.

2- I have noticed on your above picture of the rotor...that the wire is pretty thin gauge...compared to original motor wire...is this true or am I mistaken?...but if I am correct...what is your total resistance per Group?

The OEM wire is 0.5mm or slightly more but I never tried to check the resistance before I chopped it out. However the sacrificial wire from one coil was about 4.3m long. The first build of my motor used almost exactly the same amound per group which was 4 turns per pole, 12 turns total per group. The current build was summarised -

The new motor is wound with 0.425mm 0.121 ohm/m.
12 groups
3 coils per group
3 poles 12 winds per coil

By application of math, the resistance for one group should be in the region of 1.2 - 1.4 ohm...but my meter was reading 0.012...so I think I need to figure out my meter !!

My math being : 3 coils of 4 winds = 12 turns = 4m therefore 3 coils of 12 winds = 36 turns = 12m therefore 12 x 0.121 ohms = 1.4 ohm. My meter seemed to be in 'the ball park' although I had some problem with decimal point !!

You have to realize that one thing is to test a motor when attaching the chain, sprockets plus the wheel etc (or let's say 'Drive-train')...and another is just a free, loose motor. Normally the chain must have some play, meaning not to be too tight, and typically there must be some adjustment or some kind of chain tensioner/roller/guide adjustment.

Since you have elongated the whole motor assembly (and pretty much so in your case, since you have used two rotors and double stators) make sure the two sprockets/gears (Rear Wheel Gear and Motor Gear) are in a perfect line setting alignment, and not angled, which will put lots of drag on motor.

Also, this elongation of the asymmetric motor normally requires an extra rear bracket to be bolted to scooter frame , this way the heavier weight will not be resting only on front mounting plate/bolts.

The beauty of this experiment is plugging in the new for the old is a straight swap. Same three (3) mounting bolts with the same spacers keeping exact same belt alignment. So no added tension or resistance in the drive train. The rear of the OEM motor projects slightly through a tolerance fit circular hole cut in the left of the chassis. The effect of this is the motor is supported by cantilever and no additional bracket is required to support the eccentric weight...which is really neat...I didn't want to start hacking or modifying the scooter.

And just to add. The bench test for the 'beast' was 6400 rpm...at 5.5 : 1 ratio gives a theoretical 1164 rpm...with an actual 1060 rpm...so not too much lost through transmission.

And ...like I wrote before...some of the Controllers for typical Symmetric Motor EV's can not take the fast and higher kick backs of an 'Upgraded' Asymmetric Motor...imagine your Scooter had a 200 Watts Motor, then your controller was rated, say at -maybe- 250 Watts...then you are installing a 500 Watts Asymmetric 'Beast' ..then OEM controller would not be able to handle it Mark. However, this issue should have come up when you did the load bench testing with the rear wheel lifted up and secured.

The bench test seemed to equate very closely to the OEM figures which gave me confidence to 'go for it'. The performance and response of the throttle was actually very smooth which pleasantly surprised me given your comment, which again gave me hope that it was all within tolerance.

Finally my third (3) question...did you connect all four cables to input from batteries, meaning Input-Output?...or was just One Input and you left output disconnected?

As advised for the first run the output wires were not connected to simplify matters...had they been connected I not certain this would have improved the situation.

I'm at a loss myself to explain the lack lustre response of the 'beast'. If one can't reasonably project the performance of bench tests to field tests, it makes it hard to know what motor configuration will give the best performance.

I know at times I have over simplified by hypothesis...but faced with superior torque alone, I can't explain why it didn't out erform the OEM even if it drained the batteries faster (for example).

Still curiously hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Failed Road Test...

Thanks Dana, UFO. A slight glitch before I move on to the generator.

Fully briefed on the protocols for operation and control of the modified scooter...the test pilot (daughter) took to the park where there are good paths with gentle slopes, excellent for getting used to the new setup.

On a gentle grade down, the scooter was barely faster and on the up grade it tripped the circuit breaker.

We re-engaged the breaker but the same thing continued to happen.

Despite the lowly ratings of the OEM motor it out performed the beast by a significant margin.

Putting it back in the car, the motor was warm to the touch compared to the previous run with the OEM which was nearly too hot to touch. Next time I shall take the laser temp meter.

Returning home, the batteries took a 2 hour recharge (so they were not too depleted).

Stripping the motor expecting to find some problem or failure...the motor was in perfect operational condition...no failures...no shorts.

Not sure how to improve this situation, but it demonstrates that good static tests count for nought compared to actual field testing.

So. All in all, confused. The beast demonstrates superior speed and torque. Couldn't be forced to show excessive current on a bench test yet it tripped the breaker on a modest incline.

Still hunting

mark

Hello Mark,


Sorry about the failed trip... ...I've got some questions before starting diagnosis.

1- Did You run a test on the Asymmetric Motor, like I recommended previously, mounted ON Scooter, using Scooter controller-throttle-batteries in a bench and applying a mechanical load to the lifted rear wheel (meaning, trying to stop it with a piece of wood or something else) ?

2- I have noticed on your above picture of the rotor...that the wire is pretty thin gauge...compared to original motor wire...is this true or am I mistaken?...but if I am correct...what is your total resistance per Group?

If you did perform bench mechanical load tests with the motor mounted on scooter and it did not tripped the breaker...then am lost here.

You have to realize that one thing is to test a motor when attaching the chain, sprockets plus the wheel etc (or let's say 'Drive-train')...and another is just a free, loose motor. Normally the chain must have some play, meaning not to be too tight, and typically there must be some adjustment or some kind of chain tensioner/roller/guide adjustment.

Since you have elongated the whole motor assembly (and pretty much so in your case, since you have used two rotors and double stators) make sure the two sprockets/gears (Rear Wheel Gear and Motor Gear) are in a perfect line setting alignment, and not angled, which will put lots of drag on motor.

Also, this elongation of the asymmetric motor normally requires an extra rear bracket to be bolted to scooter frame , this way the heavier weight will not be resting only on front mounting plate/bolts.

And ...like I wrote before...some of the Controllers for typical Symmetric Motor EV's can not take the fast and higher kick backs of an 'Upgraded' Asymmetric Motor...imagine your Scooter had a 200 Watts Motor, then your controller was rated, say at -maybe- 250 Watts...then you are installing a 500 Watts Asymmetric 'Beast' ..then OEM controller would not be able to handle it Mark. However, this issue should have come up when you did the load bench testing with the rear wheel lifted up and secured.

To put some mechanical load on the rear wheel while accelerating I know is not a simple task, it requires at least of two people, one running the controller-throttle while the other sets the load...and Scooter rear wheel must be securely mounted to triangular lift....

Finally my third (3) question...did you connect all four cables to input from batteries, meaning Input-Output?...or was just One Input and you left output disconnected?


This are things I could think off at first glance and just "guessing"...but there could be more.


Please, let Us know...


Kind regards



Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

The 'beast' is a wimp

Thanks Dana, UFO. A slight glitch before I move on to the generator.

Fully briefed on the protocols for operation and control of the modified scooter...the test pilot (daughter) took to the park where there are good paths with gentle slopes, excellent for getting used to the new setup.

On a gentle grade down, the scooter was barely faster and on the up grade it tripped the circuit breaker.

We re-engaged the breaker but the same thing continued to happen.

Despite the lowly ratings of the OEM motor it out performed the beast by a significant margin.

Putting it back in the car, the motor was warm to the touch compared to the previous run with the OEM which was nearly too hot to touch. Next time I shall take the laser temp meter.

Returning home, the batteries took a 2 hour recharge (so they were not too depleted).

Stripping the motor expecting to find some problem or failure...the motor was in perfect operational condition...no failures...no shorts.

Not sure how to improve this situation, but it demonstrates that good static tests count for nought compared to actual field testing.

So. All in all, confused. The beast demonstrates superior speed and torque. Couldn't be forced to show excessive current on a bench test yet it tripped the breaker on a modest incline.

Still hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Generator...

I stripped my aging generator tonight to see what is required to spin the generator once the engine is detached...seems to be not much force is required.

But I find myself in a quandary...the stator is not permanent magnets but windings.

Where does the power come from to energize the stator when there is no battery ? Presumably the stator has to be energized to create the field for the engine to rotate the armature to generate the electricity.

I feel like I'm missing the point. The only slight hint I found in my search is the need to field flash portable generators that have not been used for a long time...implying they have a residual field to make the process start.

If I can work this bit out, my fast spinning motor might spin up a 500w AC generator with a bit of gearing.

Curiously hunting

mark

Hello Mark,

Like you have searched, a magnetic residual on the core of the spinning stator or exciter is required to start the process.

Now, your Generator maybe a brushed type or brushless type...the difference is easy to be determined if your rotor have at least two continuous copper slip rings, and the corresponding outer casing has the two brushes, then it is a brush excited type.

But, if your Rotor/Exciter is not connected to absolutely nothing, no brushes, no slip rings...and coil(s) are just looped through diodes and a Varistor...as well as another coil in the static fields connects to a Running Capacitor...then it is a Brushless Type.

Although, there are some other type of old Generators, and still used nowadays for industrial power output, that have a separated smaller "brushed motor look alike" in front of the main head, which is a "pre-exciter" that sends energy to the main exciter once is charged up....however, I doubt very much that for such small power output, your gen would be like this.

Pls, shut a pic of it and post it, that way we all could see what we have here...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[prochiro]

Mark
I can not recall a motor as you describe but you may be talking about the symmetric version often shown with a number of asymmetric versions. Te be asymmetric there must be commutators on both ends.
Your generator may not pull hard now but when you start to draw even a small load it will pull and by 100w will pull hard and may stall your motor.
Your stator will have to be powered by the battery as well as is. You may find some magnets just the right size but we have not had much luck in doing so and those that would fit your motor would cost way way too much. If your motor already has a start capacitor well then you may not need it. If not then you are OK as is.
Wish I had some better news for you. Many in the past have come up with a motor that just will not cooperate. Lets see if UFO has an idea...
Dana