My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[HuntingRoss]

Asymm Output to Input

Hi John

I've just been doing some more tests as coincidence would have it.

I think I need to get a DC clamp on meter to read amps because I keep getting anomalous readings depending where I break the circuit...but thinking about it, maybe that's right. Anyway, at least the readings above where all in the same place for comparison.

I think you're right about the motor/generator aspect being interchangeable...I was coming to this conclusion tonight when I considered where the connections were going. I got the idea from UFO's 'dual penta' video where he drilled the block of wood...I just didn't understand how the connections where working.

The boost in speed/torque and drop in amps looks worthy for my scooter project...I haven't rigged up the Prony test yet but the trick of grinding a stick works a treat and measuring the stall voltage / amps and the advantage seems to rest with the parallel connection.

I haven't built the goldmine motor. My choice was the 120w scooter motor which is a little bit bigger and less fiddly for my hands. The sloppy video I bashed up shows the output shafts from the original motors...which means I could share the output over two drive belts if needs be. The two shafts have been joined so there is no weird physics going on in the motor.

I've been trying to improve my general understanding of motors, coils etc and there is some interesting bits...one bit I found interesting is the relationship of the area of the coil to the performance of the motor...only problem is these are written for the classical model and I can't figure out how to apply this to 3 coils in a group.

So if anyone has a source for 'motors for dummies' please post links.

happy hunting

mark

[DadHav]

OK. So I add to my things 'that you should learn something new every day' , the fact that not all 'baby batteries' are born equal.

9v batteries have no amp hour rating to speak of.
AA batteries have around 2.5 Ah and
AAA batteries have around 1.0 Ah.

So I taped some AA batteries together. 2no wouldn't quite do it but 3no worked.

3no. AA -
4.76v no load
4.2v and falling slowly under load.
0.68A @ 353 rpm.
1.16v out
Stall - 0.9A 3.83v

Then I learned something else (so that's technically two things today which takes the pressure off tomorrow). When I connected V (out) to V (in) the RPM jumped way up.

3no. AA -
4.29v no load
3.62v 0.66A @ 290 rpm
Connect V (out) to V (in)
3.78v 0.31A @ 685 rpm

So back to the power supply -

10.35v no load
10.16v 0.81A @ 2030 rpm
Connect V (out)
10.15v 0.36A @ 2530 rpm

5.39v no load
5.10v 0.68A @ 677 rpm
Connect V (out)
5.09v 0.32A @ 1090 rpm

If I take the Amp meter out of the circuit the rpm for 10.35v no load is -
2655 rpm jumping to 2750 rpm connecting V (out).

And I think I have figured out why the revs dropped when I did an Amp reading. The cables must be adding resistance to the circuit. Geeze I wish I studied this more at school.

Not despondent

mark

Hi John...I think you're thinking of Lightworker's video with the LED array.

Mark you're probably right about the LED, the comment was only trivial anyway. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this. The term "connecting the output to the input" means you have both the generator coils and the motor coils connected in parallel right? In fact aren't they interchangeable? With that being said, while used in this manner aren't both coils motor coils? In this setup the motor should run much stronger and pick up some rpm's because the resistance should go down a little bit. The savings in current draw would require some further tests right? I'm gad you're not despondent anymore. You might have something there to investigate. On the other hand doesn't your video show a separate generator on the end of the shaft. You are talking about the output from the Goldmine assembly and not a separate generator right?
J

[HuntingRoss]

The learning curve

OK. So I add to my things 'that you should learn something new every day' , the fact that not all 'baby batteries' are born equal.

9v batteries have no amp hour rating to speak of.
AA batteries have around 2.5 Ah and
AAA batteries have around 1.0 Ah.

So I taped some AA batteries together. 2no wouldn't quite do it but 3no worked.

3no. AA -
4.76v no load
4.2v and falling slowly under load.
0.68A @ 353 rpm.
1.16v out
Stall - 0.9A 3.83v

Then I learned something else (so that's technically two things today which takes the pressure off tomorrow). When I connected V (out) to V (in) the RPM jumped way up.

3no. AA -
4.29v no load
3.62v 0.66A @ 290 rpm
Connect V (out) to V (in)
3.78v 0.31A @ 685 rpm

So back to the power supply -

10.35v no load
10.16v 0.81A @ 2030 rpm
Connect V (out)
10.15v 0.36A @ 2530 rpm

5.39v no load
5.10v 0.68A @ 677 rpm
Connect V (out)
5.09v 0.32A @ 1090 rpm

If I take the Amp meter out of the circuit the rpm for 10.35v no load is -
2655 rpm jumping to 2750 rpm connecting V (out).

And I think I have figured out why the revs dropped when I did an Amp reading. The cables must be adding resistance to the circuit. Geeze I wish I studied this more at school.

Not despondent

mark

Hi John...I think you're thinking of Lightworker's video with the LED array.

[DadHav]

LED Draw

So. Not having a 24v supply at present, I decided to wire up 3no. 9v batteries in series...They weighed in at 30v.

Hoping to emulate UFO's baby battery demonstration I felt confident to get some useful data.

Alas they didn't auto start the motor. I spun it by hand and it was running but slowing all the time. The volts dropped within seconds.

I feel despondent.

mark

Hello Mark, I doubt if this observation necessarily pertains to your video but it might be something to think about from time to time: Providing the red meter was reading the generator voltage and running the LED's, you might have experienced some current draw on your output that didn't help at your higher RPM's. You might want to try measuring current draw of your load and use two arrays in series instead of having just one. Just a thought Mark. I'm sure UFO will help you get things figured out. What I think I saw was the LED's flickering at about 2 volts. That's a little low for them to come on but there may be some radiant. When you hit 2.8 volts the bulbs looked normal then increased in brightness. At one point it looked like they reached maximum but you increased voltage to them after that. I don't think you would normally go into the 4 volt range, probably not even much into the 3 volt range. In this range you may have had some excess current draw and maybe even drag on the motor. None of what I said may even apply because I don't know where you have the capacitors but I just thought I'd mention it.
John

[HuntingRoss]

Baby Batteries

So. Not having a 24v supply at present, I decided to wire up 3no. 9v batteries in series...They weighed in at 30v.

Hoping to emulate UFO's baby battery demonstration I felt confident to get some useful data.

Alas they didn't auto start the motor. I spun it by hand and it was running but slowing all the time. The volts dropped within seconds.

I feel despondent.

mark

[Lightworker1]

Dual Pentagon Motor

Hi lightworker!

I have done 2 motors of this UFO pentagon Y wiring, one on a dual stator 5 pole and one on a Quad stator 10 pole. This style is noted for having to dangle spools of wires because you have to do 1/2 coil at a time and winding them sequentially. If I remember right I had up to 5 spools dangling (at least on the 10 pole motor) as I overlapped the wiring for each pole. Looking at your pictures I see you seem to have wound both N and S poles at one time for one coil. I went over the winding pretty well and posted some video on the Quad 10-pole that shows the process. Winding one complete coil in one step on the Y Pentagon styles will leave a big air gap in the 2-pole portion of the Y, losing the ability to pack the rotor with copper wire. This is the cause for you having to shorten your amount of wire and will cause power loss and higher amp draw problems.

Although the pentagon Y style may be the most powerful of Ufo's N-S windings (and the most difficult to wind), the Radio Shack cores of this style got about 26000 rpm max, while the unipolar got 44000 rpm in Ufo's videos. Not sure if it was on 9 or 12 volts. Either way, unipolar N-N windings look more powerful and are easier to do.

Hello sampojo
The picture of armature with a rubber band, without brushes and 1 N pole coil and 1 S pole coil was an attempt to guess how much wire one might be able to use for winding the real dual pentagon motor.
As I chose to use #28 AWG wire and I felt this exploratory step was important.



I discovered yesterday something of a surprise was the resistivity figures of my coils was somewhat out.
So I measured the average wire diameter = 0.37mm

That implied our 28 AWG wire (as per spool label) is really 27 AWG wire.



The actual method I used is well described in the UFOPOLITIC'S posts #

Ufopolitics's
08-19-2012, 12:38 PM #1466 and #4171



I too used five separate spools




and here is completed armature with two commutators etc.



This motor seems to run great. Here is a prelude video.
Right now I am working on the real part1 video of my Dual Pentagon Asymmetric Motor.
The snapshots that are shown in my previous post, are from that part 1 video.

UFOPOLITICS 5 Pole Dual Pentagon Asymmetric Y Wind Motor - YouTube

Thanks for the inquiry.

Warmest regards to all

lightworker1


Free Energy is energy that is free of charge but it must come from somewhere and be transferred to Electrical energy using some kind of Tesla circuit.

[HuntingRoss]

Rebuild complete

Evening All.

So. We have been busy playing with our new toy...my testing assistant (daughter) was very eager to further science by trying out the scooter (un-modified). She loves it, and I'm extremely surprised at its abilities.

Living in Scotland, there is not much that is flat so it got some real 'terrain' as they describe it in the manual. Now depending on terrain it can do 20km (12miles) between charges. We did 4 mile journey today up some hills I didn't think it would even touch. But 4 miles was pretty much it. It still could handle flat bits but slopes were now beyond its reach. Recharge was 6 hours, so not completely flat which would be 8 hours.

The new motor is wound with 0.425mm 0.121 ohm/m.
12 groups
3 coils per group
3 poles 12 winds per coil

By application of math, the resistance for one group should be in the region of 1.2 - 1.4 ohm...but my meter was reading 0.012...so I think I need to figure out my meter !!

The benchmark 5v test -
5.39v no load
5.11v load (v in)
3.95v out rising to 4.0v out
1175 rpm rising to 1190 rpm
0.73A @ 945 rpm (again as before the revs drop when I do the amp reading...I have no explanation for anomalies like this)

The PSU has a rated 12v output but this checked at 10.35v
10.35v no load
10.24v load (v in)
8.75v out rising to 8.9v out
2619 rpm rising to 2670 rpm
0.84A @ 2200 rpm (why does the meter drop the speed down ?)

The torque in both tests were stronger than the original motor but less than my original build which threw a wire at 5600 rpm.

Also the motor ran a lot smoother than the 'beast'.

Still waiting for my longer bolts to clamp the end plates at which point I intend to weld the two bodies together to complete the build.

Happy hunting

mark

[sampojo]

Pentagon Y vs unipolar style

Hello My Dear Friend UFO, I was working through this video about Part 1 of the Goldmine Y Wind Dual Pentagon Motor, I noticed that you originally specified the following:

1) The first thing that we need, is to have five spools of the wire Gauge to be used, We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs, then transfer each wire into separate spools (this, in order not to buy all new five spools...) As to be very precise, We can also measure the exact "Half Way" of that wire and mark it with a piece of tape, in order to use its First Half in the First South Coils.

and my slide for the video is:





But looks like I made a mistake presenting some previous readings, thinking these were the real armature readings.
The keyword that alerted me to my mistake was that this was just the Prototype Exploratory Coil (shown in the picture below),
trying to figure out how much wire possibly could be put on the armature with the Dual Pentagon Y wind asymmetric motor configuration.
Furthermore, this earlier prototype winding was NOT even half way equal between N and S poles, as required by the proposed theory. Sorry about that.





Prototype Exploratory Coil

Wire Gauge #28 AWG and with fresh measurements made

Resistance N Coil (Bigger Coil) 1.9 - 0.6 = 1.3 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Resistance S Coil (Smaller Coil) 1.6 - 0.6 = 1.0 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Eariler on, I had not actually intended to publish this picture as I thought it was not useful.



I also measured the resistance of a 27 ft segment of 28 AWG wire to 1.3-1.4 ohms.
So each of the five coils has resistance of the order of 1.3-1.4 ohms


The motor seems to work OK.
Real data analysis about the performance will be in the part 2 video to follow the part 1.

I looked into some general information so far:

From your video: DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING

DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING - YouTube

In that video, it appears to be radio shack motor with possiblly 30 AWG magnet wire.



Here is a photo of Goldmine Massive Motor (unmodified) and my previous RS Asymmetric Motor.





Now comparing with a different type of Imperial Asymmetric Motor, from

post #6128 from machinealive 01-25-2014, 03:26 PM

Hey kogs

The motors I wound last, had 25 turns of 20.5 ga. I think each coil was like
1 - 1.2 ohms.

Midas it will be interesting to see imperials testing results.
Machine



So UFO, Am I correct on assuming that


"We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs"

was meant for Radio Spare Motor using 30 AWG wire and these Dual Pentagon Motors theoretically can go down to 1.0 - 1.2 ohms, depending on the size and number of poles, for example, 20 poles?



and from post #4171
03-12-2013, 11:56 PM Ufopolitics
...
I had to wind it almost completely twice to get it right. I couldn't get the RS 30ga red wire to fit, even though I shortened it a couple feet from my previous standard winding replication, and I broke a wire due to fatigue as I went for the second layer. No where near 4 ohms. Went to 32ga, fit good, ~12', 2.5ohm. Gave myself more room between the commutator and the rotor, 1/8" total, couldn't reuse my other motor body, hadda make a new one drat


May be, we can generalize the statement to also cover all sizes and poles of Dual Pentagon Motor.

I came back to add more of these thoughts. I hope they are useful.

I will be very appreciative for any suggestions. Many thanks

Once this project is over together with its several very useful facets that needed to be learnt such as Ardunio, Live Data Acquisition and Plotting , I am planning on ALL NORTH IMPERIAL MOTOR as I have said before.
That will be another time.

Warmest regards to all

lightworker

Hi lightworker!

I have done 2 motors of this UFO pentagon Y wiring, one on a dual stator 5 pole and one on a Quad stator 10 pole. This style is noted for having to dangle spools of wires because you have to do 1/2 coil at a time and winding them sequentially. If I remember right I had up to 5 spools dangling (at least on the 10 pole motor) as I overlapped the wiring for each pole. Looking at your pictures I see you seem to have wound both N and S poles at one time for one coil. I went over the winding pretty well and posted some video on the Quad 10-pole that shows the process. Winding one complete coil in one step on the Y Pentagon styles will leave a big air gap in the 2-pole portion of the Y, losing the ability to pack the rotor with copper wire. This is the cause for you having to shorten your amount of wire and will cause power loss and higher amp draw problems.

Although the pentagon Y style may be the most powerful of Ufo's N-S windings (and the most difficult to wind), the Radio Shack cores of this style got about 26000 rpm max, while the unipolar got 44000 rpm in Ufo's videos. Not sure if it was on 9 or 12 volts. Either way, unipolar N-N windings look more powerful and are easier to do.

[marxist]

prochiro's program for download

Hi all,
prochiro's program mentioned in his posting #7113 on page 238 of this thread
http://www.energeticforum.com/265639-post7113.html
can be downloaded as a zipped file from:
http://www.rivertreestar.net/asymmetric/HP&E.zip

[Dfortune]

Sending .exe file are almost always stop and prevented, try to change the extension of the file ,examplerogram.exe to program.exe1 or you might try to compress the file using winrar or another compression program.

Hope it helps

I am following your progress with great interest...

[prochiro]

Mark
No, it is an '.exe' file. I works all by itself. Photobucket will not upload it. The only way I think that I can send it is by regular email as an attachment. I am not sure if UFO has the ability to host the file on his system or not. A private email with your contact information should work.


Dana

[Lightworker1]

Hello My Dear Friends,

I am very glad we have a lot of successful replications going on so far, now we need to keep making the Electrical and Mechanical Output testing for all this Machines in order to make sure we have very efficient Motors and excellent Generators within one assembly...

Now, please allow me to introduce this excellent Asymmetrical Pattern...here it is displayed on a Five Pole Configuration (the simplest we can deliver), however it could be scaled up to higher poles structures like a Twenty Poles or more...a Ten, even being multiple of five...will not render the "key" pattern, due to Geometrical Symmetries.

[IMG][/IMG]

The Main Electromagnetic Pattern here per Pair of Coils denotes a "Y" Architecture, it is "very Asymmetric", since One Coil is smaller than the second Coil. In this Graphic I have conceived ALL the South Poles to be in the inner smaller Pentagon, while the Norths are ALL located in the Outer Pentagon.

The way to Wind this Motor is a bit "clever" and more complicated than others so far rendered here...and the reason is due to "Space and Areas" not conflicting when expanding into other Layers.

But the "Outcome" of this Pattern is wonderful, it will Generate excellent enhanced results related to all other patterns rendered here so far, Plus We will obtain readings that are "not possible"...so it is very worth the try...

1) The first thing that we need, is to have five spools of the wire Gauge to be used, We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs, then transfer each wire into separate spools (this, in order not to buy all new five spools...) As to be very precise, We can also measure the exact "Half Way" of that wire and mark it with a piece of tape, in order to use its First Half in the First South Coils.

2) We need to mark-number each single Armature pole as 1,2,3,4 and 5, as represented in Diagram, this will be our reference to wind the First Layers of South Poles, then We also mark each Spool of Wire in the same fashion, and we are ready to start winding.

3) We start by attaching end of wire (previously stripped off insulation) of our Spool marked #1 to Upper Commutator Element P1 (Outer Commutator on Diagram) , then start winding Pole 1 CCW looking at front of Pole 1 (marked as P1 in Red on Diagram) Now, very important, Try to go as far in, within pole nearest area closer to shaft as possible when winding, in order to leave room for the Second Layer of Norths to be applied later on.

3a- Now, since the Areas of Pairs are NOT Even, We will try to keep a "Balance" as to have more turns in Inner than Outer Coils, but always keeping in mind a Second Layer still will need to be wound. This Number of Turns we adopt in first South Coil 1, will have to keep it for the whole other South Coils. And for those who marked the "Half Way" of wire, this will not be difficult to do at all...

4) So We do ALL our South Coils with our Five Spools, following exactly same winding direction (CCW Looking at front of Pole) til We finish All Five South Coils. This represents All bottom of the "Y" Pattern are finished.

5) Then We proceed to Wind our Outer Layer of Norths, starting by N1 Coil that comprehends the Two Poles completely opposite to Pole 1 , or Upper Portion of the "Y", with our Spool number 1, We turn ALL this North Layers of Coils, with Pole facing Us at CW Direction. So the same fashion when finished the terminal wire of N1, goes exactly to the linearly aligned bottom commutator element of P1 (Inner Commutator on Diagram).

6) We do ALL Five North Coils the same exact direction and Turns using our numbered Spools respectively ordered. N2, N3, N4 and N5...And We are finished.

PLEASE NOTE THIS SET UP HAVE THE BRUSHES ALIGNED EXACTLY PARALLEL TO STATORS BISECTORS OR DEAD CENTER OF THEIR MAGNETIC FIELDS, NOT LIKE THE RADIO SHACK PATTERN WE DID LATELY AND WE HAD TO MODIFY...NOT HERE!

Meaning, considering the "S" of South Pole Stator as 12:00 O'clock, then Brush alignment line runs from 12 to 6, However, to tune for better performance... Brush line could be moved towards 1:00 O'clock until "Firing" N1 right centered between N-S Opening.

I have some working Models of this Magnetic Pattern, one of them is in a Five Pole 550 Body (Bigger than the Radio Shack type), However I will be turning the RS Motor very soon.
The Outcome is excellent as they deliver just in the isolated electrical output more than Input, meaning not jumping the rear terminals...and as always, a very robust torque and speed Machine...
But something very interesting happens here...beyond certain logical and simple explanations...


Regards to All...


Ufopolitics

Hello My Dear Friend UFO, I was working through this video about Part 1 of the Goldmine Y Wind Dual Pentagon Motor, I noticed that you originally specified the following:

1) The first thing that we need, is to have five spools of the wire Gauge to be used, We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs, then transfer each wire into separate spools (this, in order not to buy all new five spools...) As to be very precise, We can also measure the exact "Half Way" of that wire and mark it with a piece of tape, in order to use its First Half in the First South Coils.

and my slide for the video is:





But looks like I made a mistake presenting some previous readings, thinking these were the real armature readings.
The keyword that alerted me to my mistake was that this was just the Prototype Exploratory Coil (shown in the picture below),
trying to figure out how much wire possibly could be put on the armature with the Dual Pentagon Y wind asymmetric motor configuration.
Furthermore, this earlier prototype winding was NOT even half way equal between N and S poles, as required by the proposed theory. Sorry about that.





Prototype Exploratory Coil

Wire Gauge #28 AWG and with fresh measurements made

Resistance N Coil (Bigger Coil) 1.9 - 0.6 = 1.3 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Resistance S Coil (Smaller Coil) 1.6 - 0.6 = 1.0 ohms (meter reads 0.6 ohms when the leads are shorted)
Eariler on, I had not actually intended to publish this picture as I thought it was not useful.



I also measured the resistance of a 27 ft segment of 28 AWG wire to 1.3-1.4 ohms.
So each of the five coils has resistance of the order of 1.3-1.4 ohms


The motor seems to work OK.
Real data analysis about the performance will be in the part 2 video to follow the part 1.

I looked into some general information so far:

From your video: DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING

DUAL PENTAGONS/550 MOTOR BODY TESTING - YouTube

In that video, it appears to be radio shack motor with possiblly 30 AWG magnet wire.



Here is a photo of Goldmine Massive Motor (unmodified) and my previous RS Asymmetric Motor.





Now comparing with a different type of Imperial Asymmetric Motor, from

post #6128 from machinealive 01-25-2014, 03:26 PM

Hey kogs

The motors I wound last, had 25 turns of 20.5 ga. I think each coil was like
1 - 1.2 ohms.

Midas it will be interesting to see imperials testing results.
Machine



So UFO, Am I correct on assuming that


"We can measure a length of wire that reads the 3.5 to 4.0 Ohms required by Pairs"

was meant for Radio Spare Motor using 30 AWG wire and these Dual Pentagon Motors theoretically can go down to 1.0 - 1.2 ohms, depending on the size and number of poles, for example, 20 poles?



and from post #4171
03-12-2013, 11:56 PM Ufopolitics
...
I had to wind it almost completely twice to get it right. I couldn't get the RS 30ga red wire to fit, even though I shortened it a couple feet from my previous standard winding replication, and I broke a wire due to fatigue as I went for the second layer. No where near 4 ohms. Went to 32ga, fit good, ~12', 2.5ohm. Gave myself more room between the commutator and the rotor, 1/8" total, couldn't reuse my other motor body, hadda make a new one drat


May be, we can generalize the statement to also cover all sizes and poles of Dual Pentagon Motor.

I came back to add more of these thoughts. I hope they are useful.

I will be very appreciative for any suggestions. Many thanks

Once this project is over together with its several very useful facets that needed to be learnt such as Ardunio, Live Data Acquisition and Plotting , I am planning on ALL NORTH IMPERIAL MOTOR as I have said before.
That will be another time.

Warmest regards to all

lightworker

[HuntingRoss]

but more testing and building is needed.

Hi Midaz

Needless to say I'm way behind the curve to be useful but I'm glad to be part of it and learn from the shoulders of giants.

Dana. Is that an Excel / MS Access programme ? It looks nifty and simple to use which I immediately like. Maybe the quickest and simplest way to share it is email ?

Good hunting

mark

[DadHav]

Wow, nice job Dana. I'll use this one too when you figure out how to get it out.
John
You mean you can't upload files here?

[prochiro]

Motor Testing

[/IMG]

Hello All
This is a small program I made to, well, the picture says it all. The problem is that I am not sure how to get it to anyone here. If anyone has an idea, well, you know, let me know.

Dana