My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

UFO recommends 'hedges' to close the slots.

I have found these two options -

Slot closures

Enamelled Copper Wire,Motor Repair

Slot wedges

Enamelled Copper Wire,Motor Repair

The first one describes what I want to do...the second one sounds like 'hedges'.

The closures look like an OK price considering I'm getting 99m of stuff I'll never use and the wedges are way expensive.

Helpful hints welcome

mark

Hello Mark,

The second link , the "U" Shape "Wedges" are the ones we use...(sorry, I always spell it wrong as Hedges)

I have cut them to use them in smaller applications. but I mainly bought it for Imperial winding:

[IMG][/IMG]

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Very Interesting Indeed!

Thank you both for the extra info.

Now. Applications for the beast I've built.

Two things which I consider important, transportation and energy.

Applications need to be practical and/or fun.

I have an old 500w petrol generator which I'm considering taking the engine off and seeing if this little thing can spin it up. It would produce 240v AC and it also has 12v DC output for battery charging. An obvious circular connection here.

But I have elected to purchase the scooter that the original motor drives. This should be a pretty straight forward plug out / plug in. The little original motor is quoted at driving this thing (depending on terrain) at 20km/h and 20km on one charge. That seems impressive considering the quoted low torque and 2500 rpm top end speed at 24v.

The new beast already has more torque and revs at 5v. This should be interesting. The scooter should be with me within a week. Stay tuned.

mark

Hello Mark,

Those are VERY interesting proposals you are planning there...and yes, it would be very exciting to see that!

A 500 Watts Generator Head should not be such an ambitious Test or too heavy of a load for an Imperial All North.

I love Scooters, small little vehicles that could haul A** and get you everywhere...very practical.

Very soon I will be disclosing -through another Thread, since I don't want to bring more controversy here- a completely different set up for "A Completely different structured Generator"...no visible Lenz Effect ...and more and more......What am trying to say is...do not spent too much money in an Imperial just to run a very "Toxic Generator Type"...if you decide to buy an Imperial, plan to use it on a small EV or even an Electric Super Bike...

We have learned many WRONG Concepts for so many years...that add more than a Century...for example expressing that : "A Motor is a Generator...as well as a Generator could be used as a motor..." WRONG!!!

A Motor IS a Motor...and a Generator IS just a Generator...this wrong concepts have created -over so many years- a FIRM visualization of what a Generator MUST look like from a DEAD END point of view.

If We look at Tesla's Patents...we will see other types of Generators* Concepts...different structures...different kind of magnetic interactions, different winding configurations...therefore, different type of results from whatever we all have up to now, which is "conveniently" very "toxic" generators that only a "Herculean" Gas or Diesel Engine could turn...in other words...so far in our History...to run a Generator is similar to watching a Zumo Fight or a Heavy Weight Wrestling Fight...

Pathetic...

Anyways, sorry about deviating from your future projects...I guarantee that Scooter is gonna blow out any "original" ones...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Another question

UFO recommends 'hedges' to close the slots.

I have found these two options -

Slot closures

Enamelled Copper Wire,Motor Repair

Slot wedges

Enamelled Copper Wire,Motor Repair

The first one describes what I want to do...the second one sounds like 'hedges'.

The closures look like an OK price considering I'm getting 99m of stuff I'll never use and the wedges are way expensive.

Helpful hints welcome

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Application

Thank you both for the extra info.

Now. Applications for the beast I've built.

Two things which I consider important, transportaion and energy.

Applications need to be practical and/or fun.

I have an old 500w petrol generator which I'm considering taking the engine off and seeing if this little thing can spin it up. It would produce 240v AC and it also has 12v DC output for battery charging. An obvious circular connection here.

But I have elected to purchase the scooter that the original motor drives. This should be a pretty straight forward plug out / plug in. The little original motor is quoted at driving this thing (depending on terrain) at 20km/h and 20km on one charge. That seems impressive considering the quoted low torque and 2500 rpm top end speed at 24v.

The new beast already has more torque and revs at 5v. This should be interesting. The scooter should be with me within a week. Stay tuned.

mark

[prochiro]

Mark
Dyann is her name and you can search for all info by searching Dyann. Post 2709 has contact information and post 2685 has her e-mail.
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks Dana and UFO.



I have done a reasonably thorough search for DC motor parts here in the UK and it is driving me insane. ‘Parts’ appears to mean brushes and bearings…I found one supplier for (one radius size only) arc magnets which are slightly smaller on the radius to my motor and about half or less on the arc angle…and that’s it. No comm supplier or laminates. I even had problems today finding M3 bolts so will be making my own to hold the casings together. Magnet wire is in abundance, nothing comes up for hedges and those nifty plastic stars at the top and bottom of the stack…who knows ?

So any helpful clues on where to source this stuff would be gratefully received…especially hedges as I had a suspicion it could have been leakage out the slot that pulled the wire off.

I also checked out Imperial motors and find no reference to kits so a link would be good please.



I shall rewind this motor with more finesse using 0.425mm (solderable) so I can ensure proper connection and lever those tabs up for a good mechanical fix. I should be able to get 10m of wire per group. The wire is quoted at 0.121 ohms/m. Hopefully that sounds good ?



Apologies UFO, When you say add these…do you mean add them after the heavier wire or at the same time…bifilar style ?



You will not be surprised that I didn’t do this…but I will next time.



Thanks UFO…I had a clear idea of what I wanted to achieve and I had studied your videos to try and embed this completely different methodology. When you consider that I did this with no background in the subject, no tools apart from a screwdriver to take the original motor apart and a soldering iron to put the new one back together…AND…copious amounts of insulation tape. It shows what can be achieved once the hard work has been done. The hard work being your invaluable input to this subject.

Thank you all.

Now I knocked this up at work today just to show the minor differences in UFO’s diagram and my motors geometry. This is how I wired it –

12polemotor.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

A described before the G1 comm is coming onto the brush with G1 Coil 1 bisector past the midpoint of the magnet.

mark

Hello Mark,

Yes, it is not a simple deal to search for motor parts...your best bet is to go to any motor repair shops around your area...they should have the source where to get some parts...also they may even give you some hedges or other parts that you will have to buy in cases from the wholesaler.

A Couple of pages back is the Imperial Kit links...I will look for it.

Another source are the "Goldmine Motors"...but they have smaller types than yours.

The 0.4 mm wire should be fine, and yes, getting as much as you could per coil...of course, calculate that you will have enough room whenever wrapping and meeting each sides of the Spiral.

When I said "adding several strands of much finer wire", I meant, yes, like "Multi-Filar" wires....and not on top of bigger wire.


Good luck in your search around town...

@ All the Members here: If any of you guys have handy the Imperial Link Kit, please post it here...as well as the Goldmine Motors Link...Thanks Guys!

...but make sure Mark, to tell Dyann (at Imperial) to pack it very well and tight, NO LOOSE SMALL PARTS INSIDE please!

Still you will need a wire supplier near by...Imperial Kit comes without wires.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Search for parts

Thanks Dana and UFO.

I also noticed you did not used wire retaining hedges at slots, between two poles.

I have done a reasonably thorough search for DC motor parts here in the UK and it is driving me insane. ‘Parts’ appears to mean brushes and bearings…I found one supplier for (one radius size only) arc magnets which are slightly smaller on the radius to my motor and about half or less on the arc angle…and that’s it. No comm supplier or laminates. I even had problems today finding M3 bolts so will be making my own to hold the casings together. Magnet wire is in abundance, nothing comes up for hedges and those nifty plastic stars at the top and bottom of the stack…who knows ?

So any helpful clues on where to source this stuff would be gratefully received…especially hedges as I had a suspicion it could have been leakage out the slot that pulled the wire off.

I also checked out Imperial motors and find no reference to kits so a link would be good please.

For next winding, you could use a bit finer wire and add as many turns as you could fit there per each coil in the Group.

I shall rewind this motor with more finesse using 0.425mm (solderable) so I can ensure proper connection and lever those tabs up for a good mechanical fix. I should be able to get 10m of wire per group. The wire is quoted at 0.121 ohms/m. Hopefully that sounds good ?

Also could add several strands of even finer wire and that would strengthen your rotor magnetic fields without high amp draw.

Apologies UFO, When you say add these…do you mean add them after the heavier wire or at the same time…bifilar style ?

Please check on each group as you attach them at both commutator elements (upper-lower) with a continuity meter for ground short with the rotor metal between any of the two elements. They must be isolated from ground.

You will not be surprised that I didn’t do this…but I will next time.

I really enjoy seeing members like you!...that just get the hints, no matter what, goes for it... and get it DONE, and on top of that it runs excellent...

Thanks UFO…I had a clear idea of what I wanted to achieve and I had studied your videos to try and embed this completely different methodology. When you consider that I did this with no background in the subject, no tools apart from a screwdriver to take the original motor apart and a soldering iron to put the new one back together…AND…copious amounts of insulation tape. It shows what can be achieved once the hard work has been done. The hard work being your invaluable input to this subject.

Thank you all.

Now I knocked this up at work today just to show the minor differences in UFO’s diagram and my motors geometry. This is how I wired it –

12polemotor.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

A described before the G1 comm is coming onto the brush with G1 Coil 1 bisector past the midpoint of the magnet.

mark

[DadHav]

John...I was just writing my last post coincidentally touching on the temperature thing....

If that scenario is possible it certainly wasn't a cause of failure in this case....BUT...I sure would like to know how to get those troublesome tabs open, it would have saved me a lot of time today.

mark

Hi Dana, Mark, don't take me wrong, I wan't suggesting the solder might be the reason wires came loose. I was just saying in general for all brushed motors it might not be a good idea to depend on solder as a long term solution. I've soldered worn out crimps on the commutator myself and felt safe because my application was lower speed and lighter duty. If the NN runs cooler that's a good thing especially if the effect is constant while drawing the higher current. I have some dental tools and one of them is like a little scoop. I sharpen the end almost like an exacto blade and I can dig right under the little tabs and pry them right up but on some bigger motors you have to get them with pliers.
Take care
John

[Ufopolitics]

WHAT a great day.

I wound my very first motor and it worked first time…I mean. What could go wrong ?

So a couple of photos –

First one is the jig to keep the alignment through the two shafts.

IMG_2732.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The second one is insulation tape markers on the rotor because the permanent marker wasn’t that permanent. Obviously explains why there was no name on the tin. I did 3 coils per group and 4 winds per coil…and you can see there is plenty of room for more wire. I used the salvaged wire which is approx 0.5mm and just over 4m long. So as it turned out there was just enough for the 12 winds per group. Phew.

IMG_2740.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The third one is a quick and dirty video but shows the thing kick off first time which is such a thrill…this is MY Frankenstein…It’s alive !! As a bench mark, I pinched the original motor to a complete stop between my thumb and forefinger with no effort. This one took a lot more persuasion but it was possible to stall it this way. The torque needs to be measured but it is higher. I did the current test off screen but it read 1.9 amps but the rpm was way down, so I think something wasn’t correct. The original motor pulled 0.22A @ 5.22V @ 750rpm.

MOV008-Copy.mp4 Video by huntingross | Photobucket

The fourth one is after I jumped the PSU to 12V. The rpm was climbing progressively and went phut at 5600rpm. As you might be able to make out, one of the wires came off the top comm. Causing that coil to unravel in the motor and that was that.

IMG_2742.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

I had to solder the connections because I couldn’t get the tabs open and I guess I hadn’t taken all the enamel off that wire…boo.

I’m going to get a drum of similar wire with the solder through coating and increase the number of turns,

That’s it for now until I get supplies.

Thank you everyone and special thanks to UFO.

Great Mark!

So, do you believe in UFO's now?...

Excellent and very fast work, and I know it was done with the scrap wire from old motor...and not even a secured casing...but it worked, and that's what matters.

When the commutator elements tabs are fused with an Electric Fusor it is kind of hard to get them open...but as Dana said, by slightly twisting tab, side ways (towards both, right and left neighboring elements) with some needle nose pliers will crack the fusing, then some fine and sharp blade or small flat screw drive will open them.

I particularly feel more secure by attaching elements to wires mechanically and not using solder...although the NN does not arc/spark and no heat, so it can afford to be soldered. However guys, we must realize in longer times of operation, just the mechanical friction between brushes/commutator copper, will do raise temperature. On the other hand, adding too much heat to each element individually could weaken the mica that holds them together.

I also noticed you did not used wire retaining hedges at slots, between two poles...and this motors blow the original speed they were designed for...I believe that is what happened in your case...wire come out through slots, get tangled between stators and rotor metal and pull its way from element or just brake apart. I did it with my first Imperial run.

With my small 5 Pole Radio Shack Motor I have reached over 40,000 RPM's with the NN winding...and that motor was conceived to go top 20,000... I had to add hedges on slots...otherwise, wires would have come out of rotor.

For next winding, you could use a bit finer wire and add as many turns as you could fit there per each coil in the Group.

Also could add several strands of even finer wire and that would strengthen your rotor magnetic fields without high amp draw.

Please check on each group as you attach them at both commutator elements (upper-lower) with a continuity meter for ground short with the rotor metal between any of the two elements. They must be isolated from ground.

I really enjoy seeing members like you!...that just get the hints, no matter what, goes for it... and get it DONE, and on top of that it runs excellent...it means a lot, it means you clearly understand the main principle and set up of this asymmetrical methodology.

I am pretty sure your next models would be even better and so on...


Thanks a lot for sharing your results!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

I guess people are starting to smell & see the smoke around the NN!
Yes, there is a fire!


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[prochiro]

Mark
The best way to get those tabs open is to take a small set of pliers and grasp the top of the tab on the sides and flip the end up. Then a small screwdriver will lift it easily.
Dana

[prochiro]

John
The NN wind seemingly does not produce any appreciable heat that would unsolder a wire that was well soldered. I don't know why but no spark's and cool running to the end. It probably was just a bad connection and with 5600rpm at 12v that is hauling. Can we all guess what 24v might be (?) or even if mike adds the full amount of wire in his coils.
Mike
Great work and keep notes as you go. Another excited UFO believer, YES?
Now Mike, finish what your doing and just think what an imperial will do. Take the output, measure it and think how to get it back in a battery. You are using a power supply so you cant put it there. Later, when using a battery, See UFO's diagrams to feed the battery. You can also do what RomeroUK did and send it into a cap, convert to DC, then into a DC/DC converter and use it for what you want. Further study will help you understand how to get higher voltage and amps from what you produce.
Dana
Dana

[HuntingRoss]

While I was drafting

Guys just a quick question, You may know I'm more familiar with brushless motors than I am with brushes and commutators. I always thought you couldn't depend on soldered wires on the commutator pieces because there could be enough heat to melt the solder. Is this not the case?
John

John...I was just writing my last post coincidentally touching on the temperature thing....

If that scenario is possible it certainly wasn't a cause of failure in this case....BUT...I sure would like to know how to get those troublesome tabs open, it would have saved me a lot of time today.

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Also

What I forgot to mention is the amount of wire used was from one motor only...AND...if the wire hadn't detached I would have done a temperature reading. However the increase (if any) was small.

Happy Hunting

mark

[DadHav]

WHAT a great day.

I wound my very first motor and it worked first time…I mean. What could go wrong ?

So a couple of photos –

First one is the jig to keep the alignment through the two shafts.

IMG_2732.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The second one is insulation tape markers on the rotor because the permanent marker wasn’t that permanent. Obviously explains why there was no name on the tin. I did 3 coils per group and 4 winds per coil…and you can see there is plenty of room for more wire. I used the salvaged wire which is approx 0.5mm and just over 4m long. So as it turned out there was just enough for the 12 winds per group. Phew.

IMG_2740.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The third one is a quick and dirty video but shows the thing kick off first time which is such a thrill…this is MY Frankenstein…It’s alive !! As a bench mark, I pinched the original motor to a complete stop between my thumb and forefinger with no effort. This one took a lot more persuasion but it was possible to stall it this way. The torque needs to be measured but it is higher. I did the current test off screen but it read 1.9 amps but the rpm was way down, so I think something wasn’t correct. The original motor pulled 0.22A @ 5.22V @ 750rpm.

MOV008-Copy.mp4 Video by huntingross | Photobucket

The fourth one is after I jumped the PSU to 12V. The rpm was climbing progressively and went phut at 5600rpm. As you might be able to make out, one of the wires came off the top comm. Causing that coil to unravel in the motor and that was that.

IMG_2742.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

I had to solder the connections because I couldn’t get the tabs open and I guess I hadn’t taken all the enamel off that wire…boo.

I’m going to get a drum of similar wire with the solder through coating and increase the number of turns,

That’s it for now until I get supplies.

Thank you everyone and special thanks to UFO.

Guys just a quick question, You may know I'm more familiar with brushless motors than I am with brushes and commutators. I always thought you couldn't depend on soldered wires on the commutator pieces because there could be enough heat to melt the solder. Is this not the case?
John