My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[HuntingRoss]

It's Alive

WHAT a great day.

I wound my very first motor and it worked first time…I mean. What could go wrong ?

So a couple of photos –

First one is the jig to keep the alignment through the two shafts.

IMG_2732.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The second one is insulation tape markers on the rotor because the permanent marker wasn’t that permanent. Obviously explains why there was no name on the tin. I did 3 coils per group and 4 winds per coil…and you can see there is plenty of room for more wire. I used the salvaged wire which is approx 0.5mm and just over 4m long. So as it turned out there was just enough for the 12 winds per group. Phew.

IMG_2740.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The third one is a quick and dirty video but shows the thing kick off first time which is such a thrill…this is MY Frankenstein…It’s alive !! As a bench mark, I pinched the original motor to a complete stop between my thumb and forefinger with no effort. This one took a lot more persuasion but it was possible to stall it this way. The torque needs to be measured but it is higher. I did the current test off screen but it read 1.9 amps but the rpm was way down, so I think something wasn’t correct. The original motor pulled 0.22A @ 5.22V @ 750rpm.

MOV008-Copy.mp4 Video by huntingross | Photobucket

The fourth one is after I jumped the PSU to 12V. The rpm was climbing progressively and went phut at 5600rpm. As you might be able to make out, one of the wires came off the top comm. Causing that coil to unravel in the motor and that was that.

IMG_2742.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

I had to solder the connections because I couldn’t get the tabs open and I guess I hadn’t taken all the enamel off that wire…boo.

I’m going to get a drum of similar wire with the solder through coating and increase the number of turns,

That’s it for now until I get supplies.

Thank you everyone and special thanks to UFO.

[Ufopolitics]

Perfectly Well!

I don't think I have to do much adjustment to the design.

If I'm understanding the subject...I just need to make sure that as comm G1 is coming onto the brush that G1 coil 1 bisector is past the centre of the magnet.

Updates to follow

mark

Hello Mark,


YES!!...You've got it perfectly well!!
That is the MAIN part for Machine to work perfectly timed!

Your Motor is gonna run very smooth and strong.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks UFO for the excellent advice on coil options. ... Unfortunately the brushes on this motor are centered on the magnets and would need to be turned to achieve your design here. I will take a close look and see what I need to do to compensate.

Thank you both for the help.

mark

Hello Mark,

The positioning of the Brushes related to Stators is just a "Relative" issue...all you have to do is "re-consider" the start of G1 Commutator Element, that is all.

I just "re used" the same Diagram and rotated the Commutators and Brushes...it will work exactly the same way:

[IMG][/IMG]

Always try to find/search for the pattern that would lead the way Mark...in this case, notice that the Coil Number One (1) FIRST POLE should match to the exact center of the corresponding commutator element...and this applies to ALL Groups from there on.

This will help you a lot when winding it for real on your work bench....Paint/High Light in Red the top Positive Commutator on that particular G1 Element as your starting guide.

Looking forward to see your progress!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Thought

I don't think I have to do much adjustment to the design.

If I'm understanding the subject...I just need to make sure that as comm G1 is coming onto the brush that G1 coil 1 bisector is past the centre of the magnet.

Updates to follow

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Two rotors are one

As I said, your first wind has a rough learning curve but when you add in a double rotor, MAY THE GODS HELP YOU.

Thanks Dana. Fortune favours the brave. My two rotors are now one. Tomorrow I hope to start doing a rough wind.

As you may have seen on UFO's site, I have built a 4 rotor length Goldmine.

I looked at that video and impressive it is too. I’ll maybe get there one day BUT simple is the way for the time being.

Thanks UFO for the excellent advice on coil options. Coincidentally my first sketch of how this was going to go as outlined in my first post

I'm going to try a 3 coil/group 3 pole/coil 4 winds/coil and see if this works.

is your option 4 which gives me confidence to go for it. Unfortunately the brushes on this motor are centred on the magnets and would need to be turned to achieve your design here. I will take a close look and see what I need to do to compensate. I’m going to use the salvaged wire from the two motors for a rough first wind and see how the motor performs. It looks like 0.5mm wire.

The casing is taped with insulation tape at present to check fit and alignment for the rotor. It is around 150mm long and feels nice and heavy in the hand. I hope it turns out to be a strong motor.

Thank you both for the help.

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Sorry about that Friend!!

IndianaBoys

Hello, from your neighbor, MichiganBoy. That rotor should be OK once it is cleaned up and re-coated. I thought that we were past the bad shipping from Imperial. Maybe we are getting there seconds. All is well that ends well. I am still waiting for my orders but now even when they come, will have to wait eight week to wind the new rotors. I was crossing a bridge Thursday morning with a wood trailer and it slipped off the side of the bridge with the two left wheels. Got some help with pulling it back on but while doing that, the trailer wheel hit a rock and turned 90 degrees, pushing me into a large rock and breaking my left hand and thumb. Cant wind coils that way as well as do buttons on my shirt. But as I said earlier, all is well that ends well. We will all get there in our time. Good luck with your winding and have fun.
Dana

Oh Dana!!...Got to be MORE careful Friend!!

You are breaking bones all over Man!....and I still do not have ready those Electrodynamic Servo Robotic Exo Skeleton Joints!!...

Sorry about your accident friend!...but think it could have been much worst!

Glad you are recuperating fast.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Imperial Kit...

Ufopolitics,

Great to hear from you!

Both UFO Kits from Imperial arrived!
https://imageshack.com/i/id4wSDKpj



They could use some help in the packaging department.

Parts just thrown in one of the boxes with little packaging.

Lots of scuff marks/cosmetic damage.

One of the armatures has a little damage.

UFO, will this cause a problem with what we are getting ready to do?
https://imageshack.com/i/f0ogdZYcj



Looking forward to the surprise as well as new winding instructions!

Thanks for all you do,

IndianaBoys

Hello IB!

Great to see your Kit arrived!, you are right, their packaging dept. needs some BIG HELP!

My rotor also came with a small chipped epoxy luckily just in one pole...yes it needs to be re-coated with epoxy covering that section, or you could use the heavy duty paper used for this purposes as rotors insulator and sticking it with some heavy glue, just to hold it during winding.

They just "throw" the commutators loose inside the casing!...no wrapping, or bubble wrap!!...so I got some minor dents on elements that could be sanded/filed down.

No Fragile signs on box...so UPS just, literally just dropped the heavy box at my door making a noise like someone was breaking in at my front steel fence...

Call Dyann friend, and tell her about that poor wrapping!...I did also...so future packaging do not have this issues.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Similar to a Torque Master Motor...

Hi UFO. Apologies if I am using the incorrect terminology. You're correct in what you describe. I am joining two casings bottom to bottom as this seems simpler to me as a novice compared to trying to release the commutator from the donor motor and correctly aligning it on the re-build motor. Alas, despite this there is insufficient room on the back end shaft.

Here's a few photos to try and describe a little better -



If the stator magnet in view is the north magnet then the top edge is north and the bottom edge is south. When the two casings are turned to join, the two north magnets are facing south to south. I checked the field (?) with a magnet lowered down the axis and there is an amount of disruption at the adjacent edges but it is minimal and not much more than the field variation across the face of the curved magnet nearing the centre. So I'm going t bash on with this method.



You can see in this photo the rear shaft is too small to fit a commutator. The blue dots appear to be a hot melt glue to stabilise the windings (?) they seem to serve no other purpose. The poles are already numbered.

Thanks. mark.

Hello HuntingRoss,


Ok, first, that Motor looks a lot like a Torque Master made in China that is used as Starter Motor for R/C Gas Helicopters. I have bought so many of this Motors...till I found out they make another more "Elongated" version which does not require to cut one casing ring to be added/welded to main casing...so, if you could, try searching for another "model" within same brand that would offer such attributes...it will save you a great deal of work and time.

[IMG][/IMG]

On a second part...if it is your first Asymmetric Build, and you do not have any experience in transforming motors before...meaning cutting and welding cases, and getting pretty good shaft/bearings alignments...then I recommend to go for the easier way, meaning, just one set of stators magnets...and just one rotor.

Now related to the type of winding of a 12 pole...it gives you many alternatives, like you just posted above...so I will give you the different results.

1- Three Pole, single wind, by grabbing 4 poles (12/3=4) and wrapping three single, independent coils. This is the simplest winding, however, since you have 12 commutator elements...then you would have to "bridge" also 4 elements together, which would expand too much the firing time per coil, this fact would increase the torque and speed of this motor...BUT also would increase the Amp Draw to max, so it is recommended to use finer wire gauge and much more turns in order to raise resistance, then lowering the amps draw.

2- The Star of David you have referenced before is just a Three Pole type, except that those three single coils are expanded now to both 180º of the rotor, so now it would be 3 North and Three South Coils, naming it correctly it would be a Three Pairs or P3.

3- The P12 Alternative, is a more complex design, however you will obtain much better results in performance all over, like higher speed, higher torque, and more output, but, still it is a North South older design, this will bring quite big arcing at commutators when higher power is applied...I made a diagram, where brushes do not need to be turned 90º shown below:

[IMG][/IMG]

4-All North Groups...Now, if you wanna go for "the Gold"...since you have started on this Thread at this stage...then do this type:

[IMG][/IMG]

I have just made this Diagram, since I realized I never did it when we started making conversions to All North Windings...it is easy, although it may look complicated...

You start by G1 (True Blue) and start turning first Coil 1 (1), then (2), then (3), all turned same direction, in series and at the final one (3) you attach it to the matching lower commutator element.

Then wind G2 (Light Blue), Coil (1), (2) then (3)...and so on till you reach G12 (Purple) which would be your final Group that would close sequence.

I did it also in order that brushes do NOT need to be rotated.

When pressing commutators in shaft, make sure comm elements line up as shown on Diagram related to poles.

Now, if you like to compare types, you could do also number 3 or any of the above (1,2) then run tests on all of them supplying same source of power...

Hope this helped you to make a decision where to go.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[prochiro]

IndianaBoys

Hello, from your neighbor, MichiganBoy. That rotor should be OK once it is cleaned up and re-coated. I thought that we were past the bad shipping from Imperial. Maybe we are getting there seconds. All is well that ends well. I am still waiting for my orders but now even when they come, will have to wait eight week to wind the new rotors. I was crossing a bridge Thursday morning with a wood trailer and it slipped off the side of the bridge with the two left wheels. Got some help with pulling it back on but while doing that, the trailer wheel hit a rock and turned 90 degrees, pushing me into a large rock and breaking my left hand and thumb. Cant wind coils that way as well as do buttons on my shirt. But as I said earlier, all is well that ends well. We will all get there in our time. Good luck with your winding and have fun.
Dana

[IndianaBoys]

Both UFO Kits from Imperial arrived!

Ufopolitics,

Great to hear from you!

Both UFO Kits from Imperial arrived!
https://imageshack.com/i/id4wSDKpj



They could use some help in the packaging department.

Parts just thrown in one of the boxes with little packaging.

Lots of scuff marks/cosmetic damage.

One of the armatures has a little damage.

UFO, will this cause a problem with what we are getting ready to do?
https://imageshack.com/i/f0ogdZYcj



Looking forward to the surprise as well as new winding instructions!

Thanks for all you do,

IndianaBoys

Hello to All,

I just wanted to come by and say...am still here...

I received my UFO Kit...plus I have also the rotor kit...so I have my hands full...(I wanna do one rotor with Groups while another with Pairs..."ALL NORTH"...they need some work before any winding could be done.

But, but...that is not the main reason I have been busy...I have a surprise coming very soon...I find it fascinating...and I love it...and so I believe you also will...

Kind regards to all.

@ my Australian Guys...(Cornboy and Kogs)...I see you are having fun swapping Real State there!...

Is Ok, I know you will be back whenever you are ready to go...

Wish You the very best of luck!


Ufopolitics

[prochiro]

Goldmine Motor

OK. I'm heading WAY out of any comfort zone, so I run the risk of annoying some experienced builders.

Mark

The radio Shack motor is small for a first motor but the Goldmine motor is not. There are many issues that one must learn to overcome when building your first motor. I have not noted that anyone has built there first motor and was happy with it. The Goldmine is much larger and as a five pole, has all the information available here to get it done. As I said, your first wind has a rough learning curve but when you add in a double rotor, MAY THE GODS HELP YOU.

As you may have seen on UFO's site, I have built a 4 rotor length Goldmine but could not have done it without first building many singles and doubles. Please consider your first to be the Goldmine as others who have tried there own motors first have not only taken severe time and help for each step from many of us, and have failed in the attempt.

Dana

[HuntingRoss]

3 pole or 12 pole

OK. I'm heading WAY out of any comfort zone, so I run the risk of annoying some experienced builders.

My motor is 12 pole which I was going to wind all north 3 coils per group. I have no idea if it will work but it sounds like a simple build...BUT...the 3 pole build - http://www.energeticforum.com/201571-post96.html - sounds even simpler (I like the sound of that for my first experiment)

So if I wind that model, I presume I grab 4 poles per coil and rotate the brushes 90 degrees...job done ?

Or does it manifest itself as this - http://www.energeticforum.com/201972-post301.html - which I confess is confusing me a little. I understand the description to be in my words -

Dark blue is tied off on the top comm, grabs 4 poles and ties off on the bottom comm (ie "all blue colours are isolated north poles") then same for light blue and the green.

Or (as they are pairs) does it mean the dark blue is tied to the top comm grabs 4 poles then crosses over to the red and grabs 4 poles then ties off on the bottom comm.

If it is the 3 pole model, I would tie 4 comm elements together and be in business...simple.

Or...did I make no sense ?

thanks. mark

[HuntingRoss]

Hi Dana. Thank you for taking the time. This is a lot clearer for me now.

This motor is rated at 2500rpm, so I hadn't even considered balancing would be an issue for such a small motor. It is 66mm diameter across the laminates. Add that to the fine tolerances of rotor and stator and I appreciate the engineering in these units. I think to replicate this tolerance without some engineering equipment would be more luck than judgement for me.

Are you planning to use just the one rotor or put two together as one.

I'm putting the two rotors together. The reason I'm going that way is my concern to recreate the tolerances as described above but mostly I had no confidence in separating the elements from the shaft without irreparable damage. Based on your rule of thumb '1.5 times the length' there definately wasn't enough length on the single shaft.

My experience of cutting cylinders (drainage/plumbing pipes) is the difficulty of making the cut perpendicular to the axis...and they're easy to cut compared to 2mm steel. I'm hoping that the route I've gone is simpler for a beginner although perhaps not ideal.

Have you built the small RS motor or the Goldmine motor as above? Look closely at the small size of the case on the right side.

I thought about trying out on one of the smaller units but small fiddly motors for my stubby builders hands struck me as a bad idea. I chose this motor for being reasonably cheap and reasonably large to literally 'get to grips with'

One pertinent question as I push on...how does one ensure stripping down a motor without trashing everything as you try to pull it apart. Can you use heat to break the adhesive bonds to the shaft ?

I have searched for motor component suppliers but no one seems to sell a kit of parts for easy mounting on to a new shaft.

Best regards. mark

[prochiro]

Mark
Are you planning to use just the one rotor or put two together as one. If you are just going to use the single rotor then you may have enough shaft length, it will take calculation to know. Then you will cut one case short enough and weld the two together. It usually is close to one and one half the the length of the standard motor. By moving the commutator and laminates to a more central position on the shaft and adding the second commutator, you would have it.
If you do not have enough shaft length, a new shaft is in order and then assemble as above. This would require only one set of magnets and one set of laminates. If you however want to use both laminates sets, you will need a longer shaft and all the magnets from both cases. Typically we use only one set of laminates, one set of magnets, one whole case and one part of the other case.

I am not sure if I have helped or confused you, ether way, keep asking questions. Have you built the small RS motor or the Goldmine motor as above? Look closely at the small size of the case on the right side. See how much of the second case was used.

Dana

[prochiro]

Mark
Good to see you moving forward. Those blue dots as you call them are actually weights to fine tune the final balance of the rotor. You notice that they are only in one area and not smeared all over the coils as one would do to hold wires.
Dana