My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Another thing is one coil subtends 12 poles and there are 7 sub-coils per coil. This leads to an unevenness in wrapping. So I think I will redesign to 10 poles per coil and 5 poles per subcoil making things nice and even for a 20 pole motor?


Ufo, would you have any concerns changing the wrapping style as such?

Regards,

Sampojo

PS: I ran the motor on the 6 coils and of course it went the opposite direction I thought it would!?!

Hey Sam,

Sorry for the time to respond, being very busy...

I particularly like the windings being as even as the # of rotor poles area/circumference versus Stator circumference relation allows, trying that they maintain a more or less equal measurements ...So, if that relation is pretty close by doing the 10-5 in your 20 poles rotor...I rather use that one.

On the resistance relation when using finer wire than OEM, remember that the higher the ohms per coil circuit, the more voltage it would be required but the lesser amperage it will draw, The start up will not be that strong as with lower resistance, and it will develop speed/torque at certain op time. So it depends on which application you will be using it for.

Hope this will help you...wanna see that Baldor running!!


Warm regards my friend!


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Baldor redesign contemplated

I have ground to a halt on the motor as I am rebuilding and souping up my computer and backup systems. Just killed a motherboard bios so time is a factor. Meanwhile the tankless water heater needs refurbed and cleaned, new plumbing...

So on the baldor, I have run some numbers to estimate how full the rotor gaps will be with my 5-wire 30ga multi-filar. I have an idea of the actual rate of filling as I have 6 coils wound, 3ea on opposite sides. Fill-up rate looks like I will have good room, but my calculation came in less than 50% full. And this multi-filar looks like it comes in at an equivalent of only 23ga wire. Pretty light I think. The wire that came off the motor I measure at about .028" diam. or 21ga. This comes in at 78' per ohm. Looks like I should increase the number of wires to 7 or 8 or go with a heavier gauge altogether. It looks like my winding calculation is telling me I can make my wire that heavy, and each coil resulting in a big increase in length too. If you add a strand of 30ga, ends up you simply add another 10ft of coil length. So I got to rethink it, recalc it etc. to make sure. Winding of course has stopped.

Another thing is one coil subtends 12 poles and there are 7 sub-coils per coil. This leads to an unevenness in wrapping. So I think I will redesign to 10 poles per coil and 5 poles per subcoil making things nice and even for a 20 pole motor?


Ufo, would you have any concerns changing the wrapping style as such?

Regards,

Sampojo

PS: I ran the motor on the 6 coils and of course it went the opposite direction I thought it would!?!

[ron48]

Been waiting years still hoping you will show your latest and greatest creation all my best wishes ufo ron. Hopefully you will blow my socks of lol

[Ufopolitics]

Just a Reminder of an old Video...

Hello Guys...I am still around...

Just a reminder of what an Imperial P56 N-S Pair Wind Coils could do at 12Volts, small battery...(WERKER WKDC1233 [12V/33Ah])...

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWUsugkE0sk[/VIDEO]

IMPERIAL_RPMS_TEST_12V

And some clarification about "Coils"...in general, but basically applied to Asymm Motors performance.

A Single Coil projects a Magnetic Field at a specific Space/Time for its On period

A Pair of Coils in series is nothing more than a Single Coil's Magnetic Field spread-elongated over Space/Time which depends on the Circumference Area of core (# of elements involved) generating a wider Angle of Interaction than a Single Coil, unless that Single Coil is wrapped on the same # of elements as the Pair is...

A Group of Coils in series is also a Single Coil's Field spread-elongated over Space/Time... except, more compacted and longer area-angle could be achieved...therefore, higher RPM's...speed.

I really do not have the time to Graph this out in a simple "Linear" CAD over Time...but you guys could do it yourself as an exercise...

Regards to All.


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

5 coils completed (25%), get only 2 per day max so far. Looking OK so far regards to enough room, but should definitely fill up the rotor with copper. Using 5-filar wire, strands 30ga, 52.5', something greater than 1 ohm per coil, at 9.6'/ohm-strand. At seven subcoils per coil, I mark out each subcoil at 90" with a piece of tape and roll into the next subcoil when I hit the tape. In this picture, you can see how much wire is building up between the commutator and the rotor, which you can use to estimate if you are going to be able to complete the wind.



In this photo, you can see the 5-filar wire on the side. I guess I need to do a volume estimate of wire per rotor pole gap, as Prochiro has always recommended... Showing 1.1 ohm per coil on the meter.

Excellent work Sam!!

Hoping to see it running soon!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Winding my Baldor

5 coils completed (25%), get only 2 per day max so far. Looking OK so far regards to enough room, but should definitely fill up the rotor with copper. Using 5-filar wire, strands 30ga, 52.5', something greater than 1 ohm per coil, at 9.6'/ohm-strand. At seven subcoils per coil, I mark out each subcoil at 90" with a piece of tape and roll into the next subcoil when I hit the tape. In this picture, you can see how much wire is building up between the commutator and the rotor, which you can use to estimate if you are going to be able to complete the wind.



In this photo, you can see the 5-filar wire on the side. I guess I need to do a volume estimate of wire per rotor pole gap, as Prochiro has always recommended... Showing 1.1 ohm per coil on the meter.

[sampojo]

Take 2 on designing in the motor rotation

Glen, sweet looking rotors!

Redid my diagram as best I could, and this is how things came out. So I think to get a motor to rotate CW with this magnet arrangement, I need the + terminal at the rear and the windings to be mechanically wrapped CW, starting from the front comm element. Outer commutator ring would be the front of the motor.





I think I would prefer to have the front of the motor defined as the positive connection however. In that case the winding would start at bullet 1 and be CCW, and the geometry of starting the winding where the dark blue wire originates from the black dot on the outer comm changes, going to the other side of the line representing that specific sub-coil. In winding, I believe I must end up on the lightest blue single coil on top as the last coil wound. OK clear for me now I think...

[GlenWV]

P66 motor

Greetings:

At long last, after several hacks at winding ...... the P66 armature is ready to go to a 'Real' motor shop for tweaking and vacuum pressure impregnating.

I have two P56 motors waiting in the wings, and I may modify one of those. So, what is the 'final latest and greatest' winding config for the P56? (I have all those posts in my 'UFO motor notebook' somewhere, but would rather ask to see if there are any updates.)

Pics attached, and will post more pics when the armature come home for final assembly.

glen

[Ufopolitics]

@Sampojo

Hello Sam,

Sorry for taking so long, I've been swamped...

It seems you've got it right friend...except for the wire going to the red or green dots in right diag, can't see it that clear, sorry.

I have made another diagram for your set up below:

[IMG][/IMG]

Hope it looks better now.

So the way I see it, you start from top commutator (positive), then go down from the first core element to left (CW if you put watch/clock right next to core elements to be wrapped). Then you will obtain a North facing out towards stators, like I have shown on diagram.

The right Image is for Pairs of all North Coils, in series...

Please, let me know if it is clear now.


OK, in Repulsion, Motor will consume more amperage than in Attraction Sam, and you could change from Repulse to Attract just by changing the firing order timing, in order that coils fire up (energize) closer to attract stator (South in your case) than repulse one (North)...remember our "Neutral Positioning" where Main Bisector is right in between both stators?...well just move the firing sequence a bit more towards attracting South...that is it.


Thanks for keeping your faith on this Machines, Kind Regards Friend.


Ufopolitics

EDIT: Could not reply directly to your post, so had to use New Post for it to work...

[sampojo]

Rotation direction confirmation

Hi Ufo,

I want to make sure I get the polarity and direction of rotation in agreement with option (1) reference of your winding direction diagram. I converted your right hand rule diagram to a unipolar representation and then included my P20 diagram to try to nail the direction of roation. So clearly a N-pole coil will repel from the N magnet and attract to the S magnet. The green (+) and red (-) dots are also shown on the motor diagram commutator, which the convention established is the rear commutator is the inner ring.

I believe I have the direction of rotation wrong on my previous P20 winding diagram, which has been corrected below. Here is what I have put together to make it clear to me.



Ufo, please confirm if my diagram has the motor rotation correct now.

Would you consider this motor would then operate in "repulsion" mode or attraction mode? (repulsion should use less amperage?)

[Ufopolitics]

Great!

planning multifilar with 4 30ga strands, figuring about 25-30' per coil, with 20 coil groups.. Approximates the 19ga wire I took off, about 450'. I will try to put a little more wire on than I took off, although the rotor was stuffed when I dismantled it. Ufo helped with this wiring diagram a while back.



Here is the motor redesigned for assymetric operation, posted before.



I got some time on my hands again.

What I am not sure of is, do I wind CW or CCW? I guess I need to do it the same way as my GM window unipolars, which I ought to have written down or reverse engineer.

Hello Sam, great to see you as to know you also have some time now!

That would be an interesting motor when finished, am sure off.

Now remember that the terms CW or CCW are completely relative and dependent from the reference point you are setting your watch/clock...

For example take a look at this old diagram when we were winding N-S Pairs, but just focus on the North/Blue side:

[IMG][/IMG]

Normally our reference point has always been the side of shaft where we are connecting to take power off, remember?

[IMG][/IMG]

Above same image without the hand reference method.

So let's say you will start from the positive(+)commutator, which, at the same token is where power take off Shaft is, meaning on graphic, the top starting point (1). So the North Pole would be aiming towards screen, and if you set your watch with the clock needles shaft also pointing towards screen, then it would be a CW winding. However, if you set the watch shaft aiming away from screen...then that same winding direc tion would be CCW...see why it is all relative?

To play safe just do one set of windings first hooked to both comm elements...then power up coils with a small battery source and read outward magnetic orientation on both cores...

Hope all this free time will allow you to complete the whole thing...it seems you have all the mechanical structure already finished...so it is just winding and connections to commutators, then fire it up...


Kind regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

starting work on my Baldor

planning multifilar with 4 30ga strands, figuring about 25-30' per coil, with 20 coil groups.. Approximates the 19ga wire I took off, about 450'. I will try to put a little more wire on than I took off, although the rotor was stuffed when I dismantled it. Ufo helped with this wiring diagram a while back.



Here is the motor redesigned for assymetric operation, posted before.



I got some time on my hands again.

What I am not sure of is, do I wind CW or CCW? I guess I need to do it the same way as my GM window unipolars, which I ought to have written down or reverse engineer.

[sampojo]

Taking a stab at the coil internals for estimating tuning needs of Asym motors

Anyways, resuming here about my answer to Sampojo...and all this discussion between you and me here...let me say that the main point which -I believe- it answers Sam question...is not about current "trying" to remain constant, but about voltage reversal in that coil example compared to asymmetric motors.

It is a very old question, which always leaves some doubts...:

If an Inductor terminals reverses Voltage when it is disconnected...does it changes magnetic polarities?

...

Ufopolitics

There are some nice scope traces on the charge and discharge of a coil at the Overunity Inductive kickback link post 7955 by SisMika. My Basic Electricity manual had those too (drawings). In my Basic Electricity NavPersMan, some interesting descriptions there which I think could be explored. So looking at gyula's scope shots:



Now looking at rising blue flyback pulse so labelled, it is a rounded knee showing some loss. My NavPersMan says this is because, from the instant voltage is applied to a coil, a Counter EMF arises to try to fight the the current. It would seem it fights the change by extracting the electrical energy and converts it to generating the magnetic field. As the current approaches steady state, the CEMF of the coil goes to zero. Then when the battery is disconnected, the CEMF must then go opposite of what it was to become a source, and at that point is maximum. It would seem that the field may not flip, whatever the mechanism is, but just decay in order to supply EMF now in the opposite direction. If the field flipped, the asym motor sweet spot would always be very near the neutral point between N & S fields. But it seems the coils are deep in the middle of one side of the magnetic dipole, as their commutator segment hits the brushes. I always have seen a broad range of performance of the motors around the best performance spot, and it only fell off significantly after moving wide angular amounts. If the field flipped, timing would be much more critical.

Here is Tinman's circuit (Almost identical to my manual again!) that goes with the trace. It has some similarities to electric motor operation, in particular Edison style. What's important is it shows the polarity flipping with the switch. Note that what is not shown clearly is that in diagram 1 the battery voltage is + on top with the coil + fighting it (CEMF). The battery on diagram 2 is out of the circuit and doesn't matter. It curious that he has reversed the battery diagram which could be confusing, but it is inconsequential.



Looking at the declining flyback pulse. the coil is now acting like a source. So in a sym motor all coils are interconnected, and the Coil CEMF fights the battery. This negative pulse is disconnected in the the asym motor.

Sound right Ufo?

[SisMika]

sampojo,

I am glad the link to inductive kickback was helpful to you.

SisMika

[bistander]

Magnetic field origin

I will tell you one simple reality...

In this "phenomena" about the coils voltage reversals and currents transitions it has always being disregarded the true magnetic field behavior. It just has being said "field collapses"...or "field is generated"...however, no one has responded "How does field -exactly- do both "operations"?"

As an example...In another Thread You could not conceive nor accept that magnetic field in a Coil is generated exactly from the center of that coil toward both extremes to form the known "poles"...no matter the size, length, width or any other spec's...Then much less I will expect you to accept it also collapses right towards that same exact point where it was generated...the gravitational center.

If this fact is not understood properly, not even accepted "as a possibility"...even to try to open your mind, just a bit...then any "electrical consequence" due to generation or collapse from any coil's magnetic field...would be based from parameter's reading with whatever we have available "on hand" -which is absolutely not enough instrumentation- plus some mathematical equations trying to reconcile the obtained results...but very far from reality.

This is the very truth about "our situation" so far...Bistander.

Ufo,

You can imagine fields coming from anywhere you want. I am fine with what I know. You have a wire. No field. Put a current through that wire and you have a magnetic field around that wire. Cease the current flow and the magnetic field disappears. The effects of the magnetic field can be measured and there are maths explaining the behavior and interactions. Works for me. If you have something useful for your gravitational center point of origin of the magnetic field, please show me. Otherwise I don't much care or have a use for it.

Regards,

bi