My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[bobfrench@fastmail.fm]

UFO,

As I understand it, the reason that the air works in our core is that it contains oxygen which is paramagnetic. Of course, air is not very dense and only about 21% oxygen, so is it possible that a denser paramagnetic material would increase the effect? Perhaps liquid oxygen or the paramagnetic material I've use as a core would help.

I wonder what would happen if the paramagnetic material was spread in the channels of the fiberglass armature after the wire was wound. Would it enhance the field? A paste of paramagnetic material and a glue could easily be applied to the armature for a permanent application. (?)

I will send you some if you like. I have to plan a trip to get more and I don't have enough right now for that, but should get more shortly I hope.

I will get back to TN at the end of the week and hope to get started on modifying a motor.

Take care, good friend,

Bob

[thaelin]

Well, first off, the motor runs. Runs really fast too but vibrates a bit. That was at 12v and it really screams as in speed and sound at 24v . Expected that part so no problems. Bad is I must have coil wound backwards or something as such. That is not really too bad as I will be winding it again anyhow. Just a bit sad that I made the mistake after taking so much care to get it right. It runs really good if I use two bar magnets projecting a north and a south inward. That is the part that shouldn't be. My case is north on top and bottom and south on the sides. But its a learning game, right Turion?

My take on the dual rotors is like yours. I plan on cutting the long side off a bit and use a shaft collar with set screws to join in the center. Can even use the center bearings to stabilize the shaft more. End caps on both ends and you now have a motor/generator with 4 brushes on each end. Since I have no provisions to remove any of the shafts or bearings, I will try to use as is. Short shafts in the center will allow me to make nice long winds to encompass both rotors. Just have to sync the vanes.

Well, that is about all for now here. Onward.

thay

[john_g]

Dead voltmeter!

Hi UFO

Had a strange thing happen yesterday. Running my motor, 5 pole modded, no 1 batt = run, no 2 batt = charge. There is a diode from the gen +. Using an analogue voltmeter on the 0-50V scale, suddenly the reading for the charging battery doubles. What I did was to probe either side of the diode – have you ever experienced the same or is this just a coincidence?

Regards

John

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Turion

UFO,

I have several armatures from these MY1016 motors, and several motor cases that house the magnets. Those cases have nice feet on them so you could bolt several of them in a row to a solid surface. I was thinking of doing EXACTLY that, and adding three or four armatures together on a shaft to make a Looong armature wound is if it were ONE armature to use as my generator. I could cut the cases so there is minimal gap between the magnets in one case and the magnets in the next, or I could leave the 1 inch gap between the magnets that is created when you put two cases together.

First, what do you think about this idea as a whole?
Second, if you approve of the idea, what do you think about the gap between the magnets? Should I eliminate it or will it matter?

I know this is a crazy idea, but I have all these parts lying around and thought I might as will think of a way to put them to use.

If you take two motors to get the parts for one for the motor build and two motors to get the parts for one generator build, you end up with three armatures and cases you can put in a row to make the generator.

Doing too much thinking again.

Dave

Turion,

I really do not like to work like this...honestly.
I do not like to keep leaving..."open and unknown" ends, results...Your Motor testing is not concluded...I ask you in previous post to make tests...I took several post to write down what I wanted, where I showed in detail, the results from Peter Lindemann video...look for it.

And now you want to build a Generator?!...and not even sure how your motor works?...sorry, but that ain't the way.

Let's first conclude My Testings, you've got the Dyno by now right?...and Batteries charged?...so...let's do it.
As I said...I want you to fully feed the original motor to its MAX Power, 24V/ 13-15 Amps, then mine..."the Mod"...and take measurements...torque, RPM, Output, calculate Ec...Effective Armature Voltage...etc,etc.

As also I want more replications made, more work shown...not only yours...there are many I have helped...and I will be waiting to see something...and talking about heavy motors...not toys...

The other "Part" is my previous Thread...it took me a good chunk of my time to build all that...and that is part of "this part"...without a properly made oscillator-controller to pulse this Machines, including the Generator end...they simply will not work, will not perform like they should...
And no, any motor controller already build out there will not work either...I have also written related to that issue before,,,and extensive pages...and I will not spend more time re-writing it or copying pasting it like "Baby Sitting" children...

So I will "take a break" and come back whenever I see some results...I have written too much...I am tired...and not seen nothing, but bad testing and bad results...so I want good ones or nada.


Capisci?


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Thaelin,

Well, first off, the motor runs. Runs really fast too but vibrates a bit. That was at 12v and it really screams as in speed and sound at 24v . Expected that part so no problems. Bad is I must have coil wound backwards or something as such. That is not really too bad as I will be winding it again anyhow. Just a bit sad that I made the mistake after taking so much care to get it right. It runs really good if I use two bar magnets projecting a north and a south inward. That is the part that shouldn't be. My case is north on top and bottom and south on the sides. But its a learning game, right Turion?

My take on the dual rotors is like yours. I plan on cutting the long side off a bit and use a shaft collar with set screws to join in the center. Can even use the center bearings to stabilize the shaft more. End caps on both ends and you now have a motor/generator with 4 brushes on each end. Since I have no provisions to remove any of the shafts or bearings, I will try to use as is. Short shafts in the center will allow me to make nice long winds to encompass both rotors. Just have to sync the vanes.

Well, that is about all for now here. Onward.

thay

Hello Thaelin,

Vibration could be loose coils...bad windings connection in one or two coils... or a physically unbalanced armature or mechanical error...

This Motors if wound-built properly will not stall, will not bounce...will not vibrate...look at all my Motors running...very smooth, and fed linear...which is a "loose" way...to full speed...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Great Netica Thanks!

Hello Ufo,

With regard to the capacitors I used small ones to start with then added more, I noticed the more I added the better the performance of the motor, It just kept speeding up, until it reached a point where adding the capacitors made no difference. The one I ended up with was 10uf 250v. And yes it is connected in parallel with the motor from coil output.
The 2 small caps I think were 3.3uf 250v each,in series but then in parallel with the other cap and motor. I don't think these smaller caps made much difference once I had the bigger 10uf one attached.
The capacitors were Metallised Polypropylene.

I have no idea what the frequency was, I just dialed it in till it worked the best, same with the duty cycle. at a guess the duty cycle was around 60-70%.

The oscillator I used was from RMCybernetics - RMCybernetics - DIY Homemade Power Pulse Controller
I used this because I just found it the easiest to build and it worked with no problems I just put about 5 different value caps for C1 which are switchable to change the frequency range.


I wanted to re-check this first but may take awhile now because I have crap everywhere. I done another test after making the video, just a little while ago measuring the volts and amps on the motor side (cold side) of the coil.
The video shows the amps on the hot side of the coil and remains constant with load and the volts are 36v.
Now if I remember correctly, on the motor side when the load was applied the amps did go up (on the cold side) but the voltage went right down. Now the hot side showed no change as you see in the video.
So there seems to be one thing happening on the hot side and another thing happening on the cold side.
On the cold side the amps, volts, speed, and load all seemed to be related, they all were changing interrelated to each other but the draw on the hot side would stay constant and unchanging.
The cold side seemed to be isolated from the hot in the way it was behaving.

Regards
netica

Hello Netica,

That was great info, and yes both sides are isolated through Coil-Diodes...
It would have been great to have measured as many parameters as possible whenever you re-do that test again...You have not taken that motor apart to modify right?... ...I hope not...lol

Like I wrote in my previous thread at some point there...to read Voltages spent-gain at both ends (Input to Coil or Hot, and Cold side, after diodes), as Amps and Frequencies for both sides...

Normally the Hot side will be at low spending...at Volts and Amps, as Frequency is in the 800-1000 Hz...while we get at Cold Higher V, A and Frequency...and like you have written...they will keep balancing...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Vincevl]

Wire size

Hello Vince,

Normally a Five Pole Symmetric Machine, each coil comprehends two poles...is that right in your motors?

The reason to "Match-Balance" Coils, is in order to set both machines (Original and Mod) in a standard and common grounds to be tested evenly...However, this windings to match Original not necessarily means that is the way to wind Asymmetrical Machines in order to perform better, but, only for purposes of testing related to Amps-Volts Draw and RPM development. I wanted to make that clear to you before proceeding here.

Now if Original Coils wrap around two poles, then Modified will do also, except that it will have Double the amount of Coils. Your original comes with exactly Five(5)Coils...and the Mod will have Ten(10) Coils or Five Pairs...However, the Mod will energize just One Pair per "Momentum", while Original will energize the whole Five Coils within same "Momentum"...That is why Original will show less Amp draw (more resistance in total, Ohm Law I=V/R, the bigger "R" the lower "I") when idling (no load), besides forced C EMF by Symmetry, will also create a Counter Resistance that will reduce heavy electron positive flow...reflecting in even less amperage draw. I am saying this because we will never get a very low amp draw on Asymmetry...besides by rotation we get back flow at input if no load is applied to Asymmetrical Machine. The advantages are when Machines are at load...then the opposite happens...and Motors are designed to work...not to stay at idle all times...

Now if you set a diagram to Original Input related to its armature coils...Input brushes divide the whole series array in two all times, meaning Resistance Total will be Parallel Formula of Half and Half ...meaning, You said Half way (half coils of total armature) resistance is 3.4 Ohms, so adding and divided by two, we will have same value of 3.4 Ohms

So a close "match" will be...One Pair of Coils in the Modified to have around 3.4 Ohms...
Now, normally for an Asymmetric Machine that will be a bit high R per Pair, as I recommend to be above or equal to One Ohm per Pair...(1.0 to 1.8, 2.0)

Try winding them with 30 awg...finer wire to get a bit more room and gain resistance with lesser turns...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi UFO,
You are correct Sir, my 5 pole coil spans 2 poles each. I understand what you mean, we have to fit both the motor and generator coils into the same slot. I will start with about 10 feet of 30 awg which should give a bit more than 1 Ohm and see how much room is left.
Thanks!!
Vince

[Vincevl]

Pulse circuit

Now...I will just render One Video in this Intermezzo ...from a great Member that we have been working together since My First Thread here...His Name is NETICA.
(And, Netica, please let me borrow your nice video to show it here for all to enjoy... )

Ufopolitics Project Replication with DC brushed motor. by netica. Video 2 - YouTube


Now so you all have "An Idea" what we are dealing here...I will explain...Netica is just using My Coil Set Up (And an AIR CORE Coil)...oscillating it with my Arrangement...and Two Diodes from Coil are feeding that Symmetrical Motor...nothing more...no changes to Motor...just ran by My Radiant Energy Source from Coil, regulated by two Diodes...Pulsed by my simple 555 timer...

Now, something "not explainable" by "Your Classic Physics" happens here...No Matter how much Netica tries to press with two pieces of wood against shaft, almost bringing it to a stop!!...Amperage will NOT increase even a decimal count...but decreases !!??

Now, if we go back to Peter Lindemann Calculations...what is the "Typical, Normal" behavior of any Symmetrical Motor when "Under Load"?

Well , only a "small drop" of 371 RPM (2235-1864), will create an increase from 1.1 Amps at Idle...to 7.0 Amps (which is exactly the total Max Amps from battery )


This is just so you have an idea...of the "difference"...


Thanks a million Netica, excellent video!!


Regards to all


Ufopolitics

Hi UFO,

What a great video! You have another winner with this circuit!

I trolled around your other thread and found this circuit. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post179093. This very cool and I'd like to build one! I couldn't find reference to the air core in your post like in the video. Is it required?

I couldn't find reference to a 555 timer circuit to drive the MOSFET. Do you have a complete schematic or will any 555 timer do the job?

Cheers
Vince

[Rl2003]

Seven Pole Motor

All,

I finished the seven pole as drawn by UFO. See post #1288.
Spec's.
Seven pairs of coils, wire is awg#32 at 10 feet long. That came out to
be 35 turns per coil/ 70 turns per pair. Each pair is about 2.9 to 2.7 ohms.
Measured thru the brushes, I am not sure but don't think they add any resistance.
Modified motor runs at 12.4v(linear) and starts at just over 3 amps and drops
to just under 3 amps when up to speed. motor get hot quick so I didn't have time
to do many tests. I does not seen to have as much torque as the five pole, but the dia.
of the seven pole is smaller than the five pole. This may be the
difference, so I am happy with the outcome. I would use larger wire and lower
the amount of turns, if I were to rewind it, But I am going to go to a larger motor.
I found some older 10 pole motors about 2 inch's in dia. that had about 10
feet per coil when unwraped. So I would get about 10 turns of wire per coil
if wound like the five pole arrangement.
I wound like to try the two pairs per group but not sure on the details of that.
Is it wound two norths in series and then two souths or
north /south, north/ south in series, to create one pair??

If some of you have not tried this modified motor by UFO or don't understand
whats going on I would recommend, just do it. It has become clearer as I rebuild
the different motors. This is the motor I used (below). It comes apart real eazy and the
brushes slide in and out just like that...I used a small metric shaft from an old
printer (4 mm) to make it double ended. The only thing is to glue the magnets
into the housing or use something else to put them on.

You may find these cheaper else where, I did not look.
Buhler Motor 24 Volt DC 3000 RPM 1.13.018.086 NEW | eBay


Mark

[prochiro]

Vincevl

Hi Vincevl
It is likely that you rushed thru that thread as there is within it all the information you need. You must read from the beginning and do not skip around. There are 552 referances to coil in that thread. Build eather UFO's 555 circuit or John S's modular system. Also Bob French's wind circuit works as well.
Your Friend
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

You got it wrong Rl2003...

Hello Mark,

Ok, I think you've got it wrong...

I wound like to try the two pairs per group but not sure on the details of that.
Is it wound two norths in series and then two souths or
north /south, north/ south in series, to create one pair??

Never Two pairs "per group"there is no group..each pair is independent from the rest...

Each "P#" is a Pair, and each Pair MUST have one North Coil and one South Coil in series...both magnetic poles meaning, to be projecting outwards to stators. They are independently connected to just ONE Commutator element above, the other at bottom comm element...and ALL PAIRS are exactly the same way around the whole 360 degrees...

Blue is North, Red are South...each P# has ONE N- ONE S...

Did you leave a pole in between like I did in my last drawing?...or you did it like the five pole, one Coil in Pair right next to each other?

Never Two North in series...never two south in series...all wrong...I have no idea how it turned...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Rl2003]

Op's

UFO,
Sorry about that. I changed subjects in that last post..
I did exaclly what you drew in post #1288 for the seven pole.
It's turns fine. I am moving along , to a larger motor.


Now you re_ posted this about the Generator Part of you design. Post #1332

The Asymmetrical Generator winding of your Motor:

Figure you will wind instead of One Pair (let's say "P1")...You will divide that Pair in Four Coils, instead of Two (like you have now in your wound machine)
Meaning, you will have two North Coils and two South Coils, each coil wrapped around Two Poles instead of Four Poles. Now, you will do that sequence at all Now "Groups" and not "Pairs" anymore...so let's call this used to be "P1"...now "G1".

In G1, You could wind the Pairs of Norths and South Coils in series one after the other...or in parallel...and same Old Ohm laws apply here as for Capacitors or Batteries connections...Parallel will deliver higher Amps, average Voltage, less Resistance...and series will add more resistance, added Voltage and less Amps...So that is completely up to the desired application.
At the end you will have either way the same amount of ending terminals as in your previous Machine...meaning sixteen above sixteen lower commutator terminals...same exact areas of interactions...comprehending Four Poles Norths, Four Poles Souths...You just have changed the Magnetic Patterns of Coils.
Now...why this?...Ok, for those who do not know...Now we have more number of vertical (elongated) wires...and much less "horizontal ones"...The Horizontal wires do..."Absolutely nothing, nada...but be the conductors of induced energy by the vertical ones"

I will explain: I always consider the Shaft (Axis) of Machine as being in the Vertical Plane (for sake of reference, and no matter how you turn that motor in space... )
What we are doing here is having double of wires running "Parallel to Machine Axis"...meaning "Vertical Wires"...This wires are the ONLY ONES that actually cut the Magnetic Field Perpendicular to Flux Lines...therefore, they are the ones who really generate electrical induction. And the "Secret Formula" is very simple according to Faraday Induction Laws from the 1800's..."The More Wires you guys have cutting perpendicularly the magnetic field lines ....the higher the energy induced..."
So, if you still want MORE ENERGY...then go One Coil per One Pole...(Meaning you will fraction Four Norths and Four Souths per Group) and you will have now four times the amount of VERTICAL wires as your previous wound motor...


This is what I would like to understand a little better..

Mark

[Ufopolitics]

Yeah, but please do not mix them...

UFO,
Sorry about that. I changed subjects in that last post..
I did exaclly what you drew in post #1288 for the seven pole.
It's turns fine. I am moving along , to a larger motor.


Now you re_ posted this about the Generator Part of you design. Post #1332

The Asymmetrical Generator winding of your Motor:

Figure you will wind instead of One Pair (let's say "P1")...You will divide that Pair in Four Coils, instead of Two (like you have now in your wound machine)
Meaning, you will have two North Coils and two South Coils, each coil wrapped around Two Poles instead of Four Poles. Now, you will do that sequence at all Now "Groups" and not "Pairs" anymore...so let's call this used to be "P1"...now "G1".

In G1, You could wind the Pairs of Norths and South Coils in series one after the other...or in parallel...and same Old Ohm laws apply here as for Capacitors or Batteries connections...Parallel will deliver higher Amps, average Voltage, less Resistance...and series will add more resistance, added Voltage and less Amps...So that is completely up to the desired application.
At the end you will have either way the same amount of ending terminals as in your previous Machine...meaning sixteen above sixteen lower commutator terminals...same exact areas of interactions...comprehending Four Poles Norths, Four Poles Souths...You just have changed the Magnetic Patterns of Coils.
Now...why this?...Ok, for those who do not know...Now we have more number of vertical (elongated) wires...and much less "horizontal ones"...The Horizontal wires do..."Absolutely nothing, nada...but be the conductors of induced energy by the vertical ones"

I will explain: I always consider the Shaft (Axis) of Machine as being in the Vertical Plane (for sake of reference, and no matter how you turn that motor in space... )
What we are doing here is having double of wires running "Parallel to Machine Axis"...meaning "Vertical Wires"...This wires are the ONLY ONES that actually cut the Magnetic Field Perpendicular to Flux Lines...therefore, they are the ones who really generate electrical induction. And the "Secret Formula" is very simple according to Faraday Induction Laws from the 1800's..."The More Wires you guys have cutting perpendicularly the magnetic field lines ....the higher the energy induced..."
So, if you still want MORE ENERGY...then go One Coil per One Pole...(Meaning you will fraction Four Norths and Four Souths per Group) and you will have now four times the amount of VERTICAL wires as your previous wound motor...


This is what I would like to understand a little better..

Mark

Hello Mark,

Yes, that was the Generator windings, where armatures are the generating fields...and you were winding A Motor...please do not mix them...Motors are not wound in Groups, but Pairs, there is no need to...if we are going to be winding whether in same armature or other one, a Group of smaller coils...So Figure "G" for Generator...

It can bring confusion along...

What worries me is that even having a pretty high resistance, the motor got hot...so, something must be wrong there somewhere...this motors work very cool...unless is a Star of David...or has too low resistance...or you are exceeding power source related to windings...

The Diameter...does not matter as long as stators are "embracing" the right amount of poles...How many poles every coil had in original?...that is important to achieve good torque...plus their positioning related to brushes...The Magenta line in center is where brushes supposedly go...or you have to take the wires to the specific elements to achieve that firing angle...or it will be "off timing"...

I will go further on in detail about Generators...let's complete the different motors first...and have control over that part...please.

And, by the way those motors look excellent, very rough built...the shaft is long enough to get other comm?

Thanks for posting them!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Bob sorry...

UFO,

As I understand it, the reason that the air works in our core is that it contains oxygen which is paramagnetic. Of course, air is not very dense and only about 21% oxygen, so is it possible that a denser paramagnetic material would increase the effect? Perhaps liquid oxygen or the paramagnetic material I've use as a core would help.

I wonder what would happen if the paramagnetic material was spread in the channels of the fiberglass armature after the wire was wound. Would it enhance the field? A paste of paramagnetic material and a glue could easily be applied to the armature for a permanent application. (?)

I will send you some if you like. I have to plan a trip to get more and I don't have enough right now for that, but should get more shortly I hope.

I will get back to TN at the end of the week and hope to get started on modifying a motor.

Take care, good friend,

Bob

Hello Dear Friend,

I am sorry I did not get back at you, but I did read you...you are right about air...but also think about "Space and Magnetic Field"...like I explained to you before...That Paracore should be an excellent material to try, for sure!


Warm regards my friend!!


Ufopolitics

[pmazz850]

7 pole winding

Hello Mark,

I re-arranged your motor...to two poles per coil/four per Pair...now note it has more play to the point Motor Angle (Magenta) goes from P1 (Center) .is where You have to trigger P1, right at that Bisector-Angle related to Stators...
P7 is at dead center to south...not a good point to trigger it...so it remains between P1 to P2 and could extend to P3...(I edit prior description, so Trigger Angle is from P1,P2,P3...NOT P7, therefore you could trigger Motor anywhere there or adjust it ( set correct timing )
Please note I ended Pair Coils definition lines right at Pole, in order to set there the <-P#->, but they comprehend the two poles before.




I just displayed Input (Motor) Angle, however note that P4,P5 will be at Opposite Generating Stage while you trigger P1...they are Ok...no intersect at 180...it should work fine.
Wow!!, it is a "Very Asymmetrical One"...
Please let me know.

Regards


Ufopolitics

P.D: I believe Member Bbem (Bert) had a Motor like this one (7 Pole)...weird breed!!...and I did not had the time to figure it out for him when He ask me a while back...well here it is Bert!!

UfO,
In regards to the seven pole diagram you posted. Are the coil pairs jumping 2 poles? It looks like the way the coil pairs are numbered, that they originate from the center of the pole. Just want to be sure. I got my hands on two small seven pole motors I want to convert to replace my three pole that I broke the commutator on. They seem like well built motors. Ball bearing, screwed together and brush assy. slips right out.

Still have to re drill my stator core for the delrin motor so I can wind it up. Been very busy lately and not much free time. I also have to order some mosfets for my pulse circuit.

Just wanted to check with you on the seven pole wind. Also, how about the comm hook ups and the brush placement?

Regards,
Pmazz.