My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[flaviop]

my first motor

hello everyone, first of all like to thank everyone who showed their experiences in this forum , and especially to our mentor , Mr. UFO . This is my first post , I have studied this very subject. But like most , I'm just an enthusiast, and I have not knowledge to understand this whole process, besides the difficulty of the language , because I am Brazilian. Seeing the work of our mentor, wanted to try something different . If you need only a motor mechanic to move something , I figured it could remove the generator of the motor winding , and with it , the asymmetry could improve engine performance by facilitating the assembly process , leaving only a commutator. Originally my motor is a DC motor treadmill: 3HP , 90 v , 18 poles and 02 magnets. I made the winding according to the model of 12 poles . Not withstanding temptation , put to work immediately, even without having completed all .... excuse me . Result, in the brush got: 1.3 ohms , 24 V and 16 A. I got a good torque to hold the shaft with two woods . Much force was needed to try to stop the engine . Having limited knowledge on this subject , I would like to hear from you what you can expect from my testing , as well as what I could do to repay all that I learned . The fact is that I was very happy with the result . Thank you again .

[Midaztouch]

It always seems impossible until it's done... Nelson Mandela

[Ufopolitics]

Self Accelerating Process/Battery Voltage Gain.

Hello to All,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4fJEf_WRHg

Above is a Video I have been working on for a while*...it's about the same small Radio Shack Five Poles (ALL NORTH TYPE)...except this time I wound it with 26 awg (green wire from RS)...and only Eight(8) Turns per Coil in the Pair...delivering anywhere between 0.8 to 1.1 ( just wound)...and it could drop to 0.5~0.6 after a few runs... ...yes, that is correct, and that is why I keep saying it varies...depending on many factors...basically room temperature...operating temperature...our meters processor "interpretation"...copper alloy, etc,etc...but, the way to go is by 8 turns, 26 awg, or 16 total at each Pair.

*I had issues with this Motor in the beginning as you will see on vid...PLUS, also do not expect this "Effect" to manifest anytime...or just by turning On Motor it would be there, like turning the On switch of a brand new appliance ...sometimes it takes a while...and some times it just don't do it...so it is not simple to capture on video like I did...I had run SEVERAL TAKES...that were non successful guys...and finally, I am very happy I did it, capturing to be able to share it with you all...This means...this is something we need to work on...and develop it MUCH further...trying more number of turns...or lesser...and checking results...that's what "development" is all about Guys...many testing...failed and good tests...are both needed to come up with excellent results, excellent and final conclusions.

This type of winding develops/runs with LOTS of Amperage within its core for its size...and surprisingly there are NOT Sparks on commutators at all...nor motor gets hot...So if it does, something is wrong on your set up...or a huge mechanical drag.

Now, I am NOT claiming we are recharging batteries by running this way at least not on this video, not with this type of motor...this type of batteries (NiMh) have a complicated process, like a "Ritual" to be charged properly...and we are just "randomly" shutting charges back and forth from Batteries and Motor, through same Input Wires (Notice I do not have Output connected back to batteries through diodes, etc,etc)...I am just momentarily storing output on a small cap (parallel to meter) and reading them with second Meter at Left ...so we could do the Math and add those values up...to find out machine is almost using zero voltage to run...

Motor when first connected start at certain speed...then start increasing RPM's...while Voltage (at Input Meter basically) start climbing up...then comes down...then up...and so the speed...til it "settles" at a certain range.

I do not recommend to run this type of winding on too higher voltages above 3.0~4.0 Volts...unless you have a very solid build model...and pretty well aligned and secure housing when doing it!...realize on this video I am only using 2.5 Volts.

Do not use LiPo's unless you add a controller between, to regulate disbursement of charges...and keep around those voltages I have mentioned above.


Enjoy


Kind Regards


Ufopolitics

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[Ufopolitics]

Group Windings...

yes sure was, I cant say exactly which end got the positive connection, when as a generator reading, one end got 8v, I think it was + to - to + to -, but one way it would run, and the other you got an intense negative reaction, probably fighting the natural rotational forces, like it wanted to stop cold, immediately, with a sudden jerk and sparking.

Hey Sam,

Next time try to remember when this happened on the bold letters above...it is important to know in which connection this counter force effect occurred.

no can do. The dual stator was a double rotor - 4", the quad was 2". I hoped to make up for it being only a dual stator by making it longer, and of course, putting the two bodies together was easier, since you could duplicate the original motor's brush and endplate assembly to the commutator placement, no thinking and simple measurements to dupe.

In this research and development we are all in... it is great to be able to switch models...like having a solely housing assy, where a few armatures/rotors fit perfectly...and maybe of different pole numbers would be even better....but still being same number of poles, like in your case 10...to make a Group and a Pair config all north...then run tests on the same housing...saves time, money...and come up with results much faster...all we need to do is to film them separate...then add a video with both comparisons.

It would clear all doubts right now...as which one of the windings works out better.

yes absolutely no adjusting. I think a big drawback now to these motors is the magnet's are shorter in width as I posted earlier on this page. The motors are made to be narrow to fit in a door Bad for doing real work as I have some plans on seeing how much energy it can make. But I am happy with the ohms per group and heating seems very under control and will look at 24v. I think I used 26ga on the quad and it had .6-.7ohms per coil, and the brush assemblies are just not heat tolerant, failed a brush set fast (haven't disassembled yet to find out exactly). Pretty sure its best to pursue your unipolar windings though instead. I would rather rewind it that way, before I do anything serious with it. I might try to repair it just to get good comparisons to the unipolar. I would almost say that I should go up a gauge to 27ga on it also, since it ran so hot. But maybe need to get the pulsers working to see how they help.

Yeah, that's a draw back on the window regulator motors...this motors need adjustments...not only at neutral timing everything is gonna work out just fine...plus, the other thing is...this motors have a pretty small sized circumference...if you notice the commutators are almost same size as rotor...not good either, in order to have high RPM's we need the rotor drum to be pretty wide...taking it to any scale...small or large types.

For example, look at the Radio Shack motor...pretty big circumference rotor for its size...then look at its commutators...very thin...small timing there...

I have enough rotors and commutators to make a new motor core methinks pretty quickly. Many serious home front priorities now however. Yes could there be a possibility that your original RS unipolar pairs is a better design? A new rotor winding of that type would be the ticket to answer that!

The Group Windings favors the Generating side of this Machines...not as much the Motoring side...

The ideal deal, would be to obtain a way to please both worlds without the need to do separate windings for each operation (motor and generator)...and I believe we are closer to achieve this in Group windings, rather than Pairs.

But definitively the "All North" design prevails over the North-South old concept...there is absolutely no doubt about that fact.

In order to understand why Groups benefit generation of electricity is simple.

In Pairs we have exactly Four Columns of vertical wires that Generate electricity passing in front of stators magnetic fields...no matter what configuration or number of poles we have...and out of those four columns, we have two that are exactly within same space-time sweeping the magnetic field.

All those attributes above are not good for generating electricity...however, for motors they are excellent.

In Groups...we could bring your ten pole as an example...then realize we have Four Coils in each group...that have Eight vertical columns of wires...where only TWO(2) are sharing same slot (Coil 1 end & 3 start)...and all those seven columns are running through the magnetic fields at different times...which enables a huge generating gaining potential through time (RPM's)...actually typical generators are wound exactly like this.

On the Motor side, like I said on my previous post...Groups winding widens what is a very centered/compact in Pair type, related to bisectors/center of the rotor magnetic fields...this weakens the strength of each interacting motoring field...

But I already figured out a possible solution...an alternative to favor both worlds, using same type of coils modules...and that is to wind them with heavier gauge trying to add as many turns as we could, per each coil in the group...depending on each different configurations allow Us to do, of course.

Heavier Gauge wire will generate a stronger field for motoring, even with lesser turns than we may have had in Pairs configuration...plus heavy gauge will generate pretty high currents (amperage), electricity.

Anyways Sam...I believe until we build a Four Stator system with Groups in a large motor...we will not know for sure if they will be successful or not...We need Systems that are "compatible" with all kind of configurations...either Two, Four or Six Stators (MAG3)...

Take care


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Re: Ufo comments to GM unipolar group winding replication

Good job Sam!
When you powered both brush sets...you meant like parallel connect?...or with a rear jumper and top feed?
That's a lot of amps drop off

yes sure was, I cant say exactly which end got the positive connection, when as a generator reading, one end got 8v, I think it was + to - to + to -, but one way it would run, and the other you got an intense negative reaction, probably fighting the natural rotational forces, like it wanted to stop cold, immediately, with a sudden jerk and sparking.

One question...are this two motors (Quad and G-10) same spec's as rotor wise?...If so, could you run the G-10 Rotor inside the Quad Stators/Brushes housing?

no can do. The dual stator was a double rotor - 4", the quad was 2". I hoped to make up for it being only a dual stator by making it longer, and of course, putting the two bodies together was easier, since you could duplicate the original motor's brush and endplate assembly to the commutator placement, no thinking and simple measurements to dupe.

The second draw back on this type (rectangular housing) is that you could not adjust brush timing...and all this motors need a "final tuning" after first run...I do it while running...and meters on...to check best point at RPM's and Output.

yes absolutely no adjusting. I think a big drawback now to these motors is the magnet's are shorter in width as I posted earlier on this page. The motors are made to be narrow to fit in a door Bad for doing real work as I have some plans on seeing how much energy it can make. But I am happy with the ohms per group and heating seems very under control and will look at 24v. I think I used 26ga on the quad and it had .6-.7ohms per coil, and the brush assemblies are just not heat tolerant, failed a brush set fast (haven't disassembled yet to find out exactly). Pretty sure its best to pursue your unipolar windings though instead. I would rather rewind it that way, before I do anything serious with it. I might try to repair it just to get good comparisons to the unipolar. I would almost say that I should go up a gauge to 27ga on it also, since it ran so hot. But maybe need to get the pulsers working to see how they help.

Edit 1: Sam, after reading your mail...I realized something...on the Group Windings...we are spreading the magnetic fields...not as compact as in Pairs all north...therefore, we need to either add same wire than pairs, per coil...or use heavier gauge to make fields stronger (per coil) at Group Winding.

I have enough rotors and commutators to make a new motor core methinks pretty quickly. Many serious home front priorities now however. Yes could there be a possibility that your original RS unipolar pairs is a better design? A new rotor winding of that type would be the ticket to answer that!

[Ufopolitics]

Good job Sam!

exploded view shows rotor winding completed, how I balanced rotor, and endplates. Just used those letter openers as steel rails for the motor to roll frictionless on a level surface. stuck 18ga wrapped steel wire on one site to get it balanced, as wire hedges, fit snug and glued. use wood hedges on the other slots, glued.



Estimate 1.1 ohms per coil. Ran the motor, on 12v. one brush set 3200 rpm powered, 8v out of the other, 1.5A, ran at hottest point 110degF

Good job Sam!

Powered both brush sets the same battery: 3900 rpm, amps on the firsts coil dropped to .7A.

When you powered both brush sets...you meant like parallel connect?...or with a rear jumper and top feed?
That's a lot of amps drop off

Couldn't get a reading on the amps on the other coil for some reason. (Multimeter issues?, tried 2 or 3), but even so looks like rpm went up and amps stayed the same if you figure both coils were taking the same amperage. I could stop the motor with my fingers on one coil, probably not on 2. Pretty interesting how much the amps dropped on the one pair. Try to get some video soon

My Quad stator pentagon winding motor did 7500 rpm on one brush set if I remember right, drew 2.5A, 8600 with 2 brushes. I think I had .7 ohms per brush set though, got up to 130 dF the day I blew a brush set, used solder. so it needs reworked.

One question...are this two motors (Quad and G-10) same spec's as rotor wise?...If so, could you run the G-10 Rotor inside the Quad Stators/Brushes housing?

This motor is too stiff to turn yet, no where as loose as my QP10. Gotta look at brush tension again, pretty sure it isn't binding. If the brushes are sharing the amperage equally then I got more rpm for the same load when running both sets in parallel. The commutators are looking kinda dirty too.

Mechanical drag, due to misalignment or rubbing parts is a killer for performance my friend...

You can see my QP10 run on UFO's site where I earned honors for that job!

So working toward some better results...

That housing (on video) looks much better than the smaller magnets circumference/semi-rectangular type...you must realize that even powering just one brush set within four magnets you will get assisting on the reversing coils right after collapse...you do not have that option on the latest one.

The second draw back on this type (rectangular housing) is that you could not adjust brush timing...and all this motors need a "final tuning" after first run...I do it while running...and meters on...to check best point at RPM's and Output.


Regards


Ufopolitics

Edit 1: Sam, after reading your mail...I realized something...on the Group Windings...we are spreading the magnetic fields...not as compact as in Pairs all north...therefore, we need to either add same wire than pairs, per coil...or use heavier gauge to make fields stronger (per coil) at Group Winding.

[Holbi]

Junkyards as DC motor source

Does Europe have junkyards? Window regulator motors are a nice size to work with, large not just a toy, might be able to do real work with it. I can actually actually get them shipped to my door in the US cheaper than if I go to a junkyard here in the USA and try to buy it from a u-pull-it yard. (I got it less once when I got the right guy and bought several at once). Having to go to 32ga on the toy motors is like working with hair. I think the RS motors are 28ga, and at the beginning of the thread I think Ufo recommended 30ga, and now I believe he even recommended 32ga there. And my experience with those motors at 30ga tell me they had a heat problem. So I would concur with the 32ga recommendation.

Also we could make arrangements to make purchases for you here and ship them to you. Paypal could be used as it allows payments to individuals, no extra charge. Shipping and handling fairly affordable, $5-15 usd. I have done this for Cornboy, we ordered in bulk and split things, shipped to Australia. That took awhile there, 3 wks? for him to get them.

Dear Sampojo,

Thank you very much for the idea.
Of course there are several junkyards in Europe, even int the central and eastern part of Europe. It is traditional form here to find parts to the cars because a decade ago there was not part supply chain to the "western" cars.

I could find here local junkyards online with window regulator DC motors starting from $9.0 for a FIAT, and around me here in the 1000 m circle there are 3 junkyards also.

The small DC motors like G18945 at the Electronic Goldmine - 12VDC Motor
or this below on the image from our local electric store are really toys and too small (for me).


Junkyards, and used car parts, window regulator motors are really good idea.

Regards:
Holbi

[sampojo]

Completed GM G10 unipolar winding completed, tested

exploded view shows rotor winding completed, how I balanced rotor, and endplates. Just used those letter openers as steel rails for the motor to roll frictionless on a level surface. stuck 18ga wrapped steel wire on one site to get it balanced, as wire hedges, fit snug and glued. use wood hedges on the other slots, glued.



Estimate 1.1 ohms per coil. Ran the motor, on 12v. one brush set 3200 rpm powered, 8v out of the other, 1.5A, ran at hottest point 110degF

Powered both brush sets the same battery: 3900 rpm, amps on the firsts coil dropped to .7A. Couldn't get a reading on the amps on the other coil for some reason. (Multimeter issues?, tried 2 or 3), but even so looks like rpm went up and amps stayed the same if you figure both coils were taking the same amperage. I could stop the motor with my fingers on one coil, probably not on 2. Pretty interesting how much the amps dropped on the one pair. Try to get some video soon

My Quad stator pentagon winding motor did 7500 rpm on one brush set if I remember right, drew 2.5A, 8600 with 2 brushes. I think I had .7 ohms per brush set though, got up to 130 dF the day I blew a brush set, used solder. so it needs reworked.

This motor is too stiff to turn yet, no where as loose as my QP10. Gotta look at brush tension again, pretty sure it isn't binding. If the brushes are sharing the amperage equally then I got more rpm for the same load when running both sets in parallel. The commutators are looking kinda dirty too.

You can see my QP10 run on UFO's site where I earned honors for that job!

So working toward some better results...

[sampojo]

Holbi what if

Does Europe have junkyards? Window regulator motors are a nice size to work with, large not just a toy, might be able to do real work with it. I can actually actually get them shipped to my door in the US cheaper than if I go to a junkyard here in the USA and try to buy it from a u-pull-it yard. (I got it less once when I got the right guy and bought several at once). Having to go to 32ga on the toy motors is like working with hair. I think the RS motors are 28ga, and at the beginning of the thread I think Ufo recommended 30ga, and now I believe he even recommended 32ga there. And my experience with those motors at 30ga tell me they had a heat problem. So I would concur with the 32ga recommendation.

Also we could make arrangements to make purchases for you here and ship them to you. Paypal could be used as it allows payments to individuals, no extra charge. Shipping and handling fairly affordable, $5-15 usd. I have done this for Cornboy, we ordered in bulk and split things, shipped to Australia. That took awhile there, 3 wks? for him to get them.

[Holbi]

Hello Ufopolitics,
Hello Zardox,

Thank you for the suggestion.
Unfortunately the Electronic Goldmine is located in the US and shipping goods to Europe cost about ~ $110 - $150, and for the $3.49 piece, it is not the best deal.

But using the Electronic Goldmine and Radio Shack data I have found some local distributor of small size DC motors with price between $1.5 - $20. The size is usually too same like G18945 at Electronic Goldmine - 12VDC Motor

Unfortunately there are no data available on-line about these DC motors but for the $1.5 I think possible to try what is inside.

I will purchase a few pieces and will post the results of conversion into asymmetrical type.

Regards:
Holbi

[Zardox]

One more time

Electronic Goldmine - 12VDC Motor

[Zardox]

forgot the link

Electronic Goldmine - 12VDC Motor

[Zardox]

5 pole

Here is the link to the 5 pole motor. I am working on this one in my spare time. However for a beginner I would recommend the radio shack motor. I believe it is a little easier.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Ufopolitics and Hello all members on this thread.

There are different type of DC motors. With brush, brush less, etc.

What is the suggestion, what type of and what size of motor should be the first subject of reconstruction into Asymmetrical type electric machine?

So, how to start as a beginner?

Thank you for the answer for advance, and kindest regards:
Holbi

Hello Holbi,

I recommend to start by a low number of poles motor...basically a simple Three Pole, then do a Five Pole All North.

There is a place called Goldmine Motors, where you could find very cheap prices in packs.

Some of the guys here know which ones are the Three and the Five types.

Good luck


Regards


Ufopolitics