My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Dear Bob

Hi Guys,
I have 2 nice 5-pole DC motors to convert. First, I thought I'd try 2 cheap 3 pole motors from 2 identical dollar store toys.
I wired 'em up as per UFO's specs, modded the housing and put the commutators at each end.
But no movement at all, even with a 9 V battery.
I thought it could be:
- rotor stuck against a stator magnet (should I grind rotors it down for more clearance?)
- magnets reversed/backwards (is this possible?)

I'm bummed out; thought I had this in the bag. I can post pics as well. Any troubleshooting suggestions appreciated.

Otherwise, I'll start on the 5 pole.


Bob

Hello Bob,

What does it do?...it "Humms"...or just absolutely noting happens?
It does a huge difference in this answer being Y/N

Check the motor for rotation freedom...is it moving?...beside magnetic pulse feeling...it does move?
If it would be touching a magnet it will make a noise...a different sound...

Possible faults
1- Commutators not aligned in a linear fashion and/or at the ANGLES related to Armatures POLES, as indicated in Drawing...

See Bob...the Commutator spaces and the contact elements create a pattern, either one (gap or metal contact) should line up either with very center of Pole or Gap between Poles...and that relates to BOTH COMM.

Make sure you do not have an inverted winding...it will humm but won't move...

Don't move to 5 yet...it is more complex...let's fix this one...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[lamare]

Connection with Edwin Gray machine?

Hi all,

Just posted a comment on the Gray tube thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post202002

It may be that Ufo's work finally enables us to unlock Gray's secret.

If Gray indeed used the same magnetic principle in his motors to get COP>>1, then it may be very interesting to experiment with Ufo's design in combination with pulsed discharge of high voltage capacitors, be it relatively low voltage (several 100 Volts) trough semiconductors, or high voltages trough spark gaps.

In the case one wants to work with spark gaps, one may consider using triggered spark gaps, a.k.a. Trigatrons:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post196764

Trigatron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A trigatron is a type of triggerable spark gap switch designed for high current and high voltage, (usually 10-100 kV and 20-100 kA, though devices in the mega-ampere range exist as well). It has very simple construction and in many cases is the lowest cost high energy switching option. It may operate in open air, it may be sealed, or it may be filled with a dielectric gas other than air. The dielectric gas may be pressurized, or a liquid dielectric (e.g. mineral oil) may be substituted to further extend the operating voltage. Trigatrons may be rated for repeated use (over 10,000 switching cycles), or they may be single-shot, destroyed in a single use.

The idea is that the strength of a magnetic field created by an electric current depends on two factors:

1) the current going trough the coil;
2) a sudden change in the electric field.

This originates from the well known Maxwell equations:

Maxwell's equations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ampère's law with Maxwell's correction states that magnetic fields can be generated in two ways: by electrical current (this was the original "Ampère's law") and by changing electric fields (this was "Maxwell's correction").

When you suddenly discharge a capacitor into a coil, you first get a changing electric field, and subsequently a current starts flowing trough your wire.

So, both this Maxwell principle and Gray's stuff suggest that you can get some extra (magnetic) bang for the buck by using (relatively) high voltages in combination with fast-swithed pulsed discharges from a capacitor (bank).

If you want to experiment with this principle, you would need some way to trigger the discharge at the the desired angle in the rotation cycle of the motor. It should be possible to mount a dish with a number of holes on the shaft and then use a slotted optical switch ( Slotted optical switch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - often found in computer mouses ) to get a trigger signal.

This is just an idea which may be interesting to experiment with...

Today, I have ordered two of these motors for a replication attempt:
Igarashi n2738-48gf buy now - Conrad Electronic SE Multipurpose electric motors Electronics Online Store

There are also 5 pole versions:
Igarashi n2738-51g-5p buy now - Conrad Electronic SE Multipurpose electric motors Electronics Online Store

I chose this one, because it appears to have a reasonably long shaft.


Update: Had a night's sleep over this...

Of course it is obvious that you can discharge a certain amount of energy either quickly or slowly. If you want to discharge, say, 1 Joule of energy within 1 micro second, you need a much higher voltage and current than when you want to discharge the same amount of energy within a second.

Leedskalnin's experiment suggests that it is possible to "lock" a magnetic field inside a(n almost) closed magnetic loop and thus you can in principle create a much stronger magnetic field for the same bang in terms of energy by pulsed (short duration), high voltage, high current discharge instead of using D.C..

More on the Gray thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post202066

[zapzap]

dc brushed motor break-in trick

I recall brushed, "witch based" RC motors being run in water for some time and dyno output being increased up to 20%. Ring a bell?

[DadHav]

Center coil connection

[IMG][/IMG]

UFO. Check and see if I have this right. By making this connection you have the input voltage across one of the windings then you connect the second wind in series to the first. At this time you have a voltage drop across the first wind with the addition of whatever you can generate on the second winding. Sounds exactly right about 18 volts I can get the same thing with a standard generator setup and either way you cannot use the increase voltage without the input current going up. I have explained the same exact connection dozens of times on the Monopole forum and on my videos. I use an extra coil of a window motor in series with the power coil. The output is taken from the start of the power coil to the end of the added coil. the result is about an 80% increase in voltage. I never had the nerve to call this a COP of 1.8 because I don't have .8 volts over unity to add back to anything or us it in any way that would prove over unity. Take a look at this video to see what I'm talking about:
Window Motor Runs Window Motor. - YouTube
You will see much more stuff on the output running at more voltage than the input. But this is still not over unity no matter what the COP on a piece of paper says. The young experimenters here and on most other forums are looking for something they can see in reality. Over Unity = Self Run or Charging several batteries from one. If your over unity is only on paper then you need to explain this to everyone who is following you here.
Here is a video for the benefit of the two inventors who did the generator test and it may also interest others. This is a video that I was going to save to show how much better the modification was but now I can see I wont need it for that.
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edi...id=VwRmkYhxqXE
That's right I was going to try the same test the others did and I may have even encouraged them so I'm the one who should take it on the chin not them.
John H

[citfta]

Not how you calculate COP!

[IMG][/IMG]

COP is a measure of input power versus output power. It is NOT a measure of input voltage versus output voltage. Power is voltage times amperage. If you don't include the amperage along with the input and output voltage your readings mean nothing.

Your output voltage is only 8 volts anyway. The way you have it drawn you are adding the battery voltage to get the 18 volts. So 18 volts is not your true output.

The last time I asked questions or commented about your circuits you proceeded to just call me names. This time would you please address the technical issues I have raised and forget the name calling.

Respectfully,
Carroll

[prochiro]

Bob Smith

If your motor makes just a hum, you must find the bind in motor. It must turn freely and aslo when you move the shaft back and forth in the motor you want just a little play and a free "feel" of movement. If no hum, take your contact testor on the + and - tabs on one side and turn the rotor by hand. You should get electrical contact all the way arround but with a tiny skip where contacts change. Do the other side as well. If nothing or a skip in the pattern your brush patterns are not lined up. Even if one coil is shorted, you should get a hum. My guess is brushes are not correct allignment.
Dana

[Turion]

Finished all the testing on the standard motor setup.
Radio Shack model 273-257
9-18 volt DC motor
1.98 Amps max

With the motor connected to another motor it showed 12,204 RPM
at .82 amps running on 12.3 volts

The output of the second motor (under the load of the bulb) was 7.2 volts at .7 amps lighting a Sylvania 211-2 Bulb rated at 12.8 volts 12.4 watts

When that bulb was connected as load, the RPMs of the motor decreased to 10,200 at 1.4 amps and 12.3 volts.

So. The basic motor with a second motor attached runs on 10.08 watts
under load (with light connected to generator) it runs on 17.08 watts while producing 5.04 watts.
Can we all agree that this is an accurate method for determining what the motor is producing? Because these are the standards of measurement I will be using when I test the converted motor.

The conversion motor showed 14,462 RPM's but when I went to check the amp draw, I got some really irregular readings. I disassembled the motor and discovered that my second commutator had rotated slightly on the shaft, so I have they epoxy drying now, and will post the data when I have a chance to run it again, which may not be until the morning. Meanwhile, I will be assembling another motor and generator.

I can say for sure that the RPM's of the motor are higher than the standard motor. Just the facts ma'am.

Sorry I don't have ALL the data to report, but this is the kinda crap you live with doing this stuff, and I am pretty careful about making sure things are working correctly before reporting incorrect data.

Dave

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Dear Carroll

COP is a measure of input power versus output power. It is NOT a measure of input voltage versus output voltage. Power is voltage times amperage. If you don't include the amperage along with the input and output voltage your readings mean nothing.

Your output voltage is only 8 volts anyway. The way you have it drawn you are adding the battery voltage to get the 18 volts. So 18 volts is not your true output.

The last time I asked questions or commented about your circuits you proceeded to just call me names. This time would you please address the technical issues I have raised and forget the name calling.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Hello Dear Carroll,

Your output voltage is only 8 volts anyway. The way you have it drawn you are adding the battery voltage to get the 18 volts. So 18 volts is not your true output.

Please, may I ask where did you read, in what part, did I write the word..."Total Output=18 Volts"?

A Motor Armature Power is given by Ea-Ec=Effective Voltage (not output)
Effective Voltage is our Rotor Voltage Power, given by Counter EMF, which, since it is a reverse value to our Input...is then subtracted..to our Source Input...are we right til now?

In Peter Lindemann is very simple deal, He gets in 12.1 V...and C EMF is -9.0V
This if we use very simple math gives Us a Voltage value of 3.1V...are we ok to here?


Then we have an Ev (Effective Voltage)...not Total Output, Carroll, of 3.1 Volts as Armature Voltage Power...right?


Ok, Dear, so then, I will let you "Calculate" My Motor math as Ev amount (not output)...How much, do you think that is?



And remember I mean Effective Voltage, not Total Output

You tell me...

Now COP, derives from Ev/Ea, meaning Effective Voltage divided Input Voltage...In Mr Lindemann's video, it renders a COP of 3.1/12.1=0.256

Whenever you finish doing this math...then we could calculate my COP properly then...

I do not know why we are all arguing over something so simple...if we would be talking about Maxwell's Quaternions Formulas...I would understand, or even High Level Algebra ...but...not in so simple math...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[shylo]

the real witch

This is excellent info
You have to get rid of the steel core(the real witch)
Magnets like steel(bad witch)
And running electrons creates magnetic fields
Is the field that is created chopping off the witches head??
When does the opposing field come into play???

UFO, Thank-you for sharing In the video when you put the pliers against the motor , I noticed the drop in readings,If you are capturing the back emf , shouldn't you get a bigger back emf kick , because your drawing more power through the coil???

I'm not an electronics type ,I'm more hands on building stuff..
Not scared to hook things up wrong
shylo

[Ufopolitics]

Is Ok Turion

Finished all the testing on the standard motor setup.
Radio Shack model 273-257
9-18 volt DC motor
1.98 Amps max

With the motor connected to another motor it showed 12,204 RPM
at .82 amps running on 12.3 volts

The output of the second motor (under the load of the bulb) was 7.2 volts at .7 amps lighting a Sylvania 211-2 Bulb rated at 12.8 volts 12.4 watts

When that bulb was connected as load, the RPMs of the motor decreased to 10,200 at 1.4 amps and 12.3 volts.

The conversion motor showed 14,462 RPM's but when I went to check the amp draw, I got some really irregular readings. I disassembled the motor and discovered that my second commutator had rotated slightly on the shaft, so I have they epoxy drying now, and will post the data when I have a chance to run it again, which may not be until the morning. Meanwhile, I will be assembling another motor and generator.

I can say for sure that the RPM's of the motor are higher than the standard motor. Just the facts ma'am.

Sorry I don't have ALL the data to report, but this is the kinda crap you live with doing this stuff, and I am pretty careful about making sure things are working correctly before reporting incorrect data.

Dave

Hello Turion,

Shut happens man...now may I suggest to do this...before inserting new commutator...get the area of shaft length that will house the comm, and JUST in that area, use a small little chisel, or flat screw driver that have metal backing to be used as a chisel...and leaning against a press, hit a bit to create some small splines or even some small indentations on shaft metal...not too hard though...that will avoid Comm to turn ever again...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Shylo

This is excellent info
You have to get rid of the steel core(the real witch)
Magnets like steel(bad witch)
And running electrons creates magnetic fields
Is the field that is created chopping off the witches head??
When does the opposing field come into play???

UFO, Thank-you for sharing In the video when you put the pliers against the motor , I noticed the drop in readings,If you are capturing the back emf , shouldn't you get a bigger back emf kick , because your drawing more power through the coil???

I'm not an electronics type ,I'm more hands on building stuff..
Not scared to hook things up wrong
shylo

Hello Shylo,

I'm not an electronics type ,I'm more hands on building stuff..

Hey Shylo, That is EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED HERE MY GUY..!!!

A real guy that do not waste his time with so much crappy kinder math and BS, and get their hands to it,...after you build it and it can drag your car down the road...WTF CARES, if the amps were so or so??...

REAL LAB WORKERS AND CRAFT PEOPLE IS EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED HERE, NOT MAKING ME , WASTE MY TIME OVER CRAP ARGUMENTS...


SO YOU ARE VERY HERE FRIEND!!

Come in and Join this Party...


Regards


UFO

[citfta]

Hi UFO,

Hello Dear Carroll,




Please, may I ask where did you read, in what part, did I write the word..."Total Output=18 Volts"? Your meter shows 18 volts and it is across the generator output plus the battery voltage in series.

A Motor Armature Power is given by Ea-Ec=Effective Voltage (not output) Not exactly true. You have to include armature current to calculate true armature power.
Effective Voltage is our Rotor Voltage Power, given by Counter EMF, which, since it is a reverse value to our Input...is then subtracted..to our Source Input...are we right til now? Yes effective voltage is input voltage minus CEMF.

In Peter Lindemann is very simple deal, He gets in 12.1 V...and C EMF is -9.0V
This if we use very simple math gives Us a Voltage value of 3.1V...are we ok to here? Yes.


Then we have an Ev (Effective Voltage)...not Total Output, Carroll, of 3.1 Volts as Armature Voltage Power...right? Yes that also is correct.


Ok, Dear, so then, I will let you "Calculate" My Motor math as Ev amount (not output)...How much, do you think that is? There is no way to calculate the Ev without knowing the current going through the armature and also the armature resistance.



And remember I mean Effective Voltage, not Total Output Then why did you use your measured output and claim it was the EV?

You tell me...

Now COP, derives from Ev/Ea, meaning Effective Voltage divided Input Voltage...In Mr Lindemann's video, it renders a COP of 3.1/12.1=0.256 You are confusing COP with effieciency. They are not always the same thing.

Whenever you finish doing this math...then we could calculate my COP properly then...

I do not know why we are all arguing over something so simple...if we would be talking about Maxwell's Quaternions Formulas...I would understand, or even High Level Algebra ...but...not in so simple math... Please understand I am not saying your motor is not doing all you claim. In fact I am greatly impressed by the design of it. I have never seen anything quit like it in all my years of working on motors and generators. I am only saying you are not doing the calculations correctly.

Regards


Ufopolitics

Respectfully,
Carroll

[bobo36us]

De-Witched UFO Motor - YouTube
My little motors untouched draw 2.5 amps off 6 volts and garnish 13,000 rpm
My De-witched UFO motor draws 50-90mA and gets to the same speed.
I have no luck getting more than 2 volts off the charge side, but am very pleased with the upgrade in performance.
gotta run,
Patrick

Patrick..........great video! I thought that was what was happening too, but your demo helped to visualize it better.

One thing though, alot of replicators are reporting increased speed and torque, but (correct me if I'm wrong), none of them are reporting a 95% reduction of Input like you are from 2.5 amp to 90 ma.

Why do you think this is so? Is it because you took the steel core off of the motor?

Thanks,
Bobo

[Rl2003]

Moving Fast

Wow this thread is moving Fast.

Is Woppy still awake and reading? I finish my windings and put her to the test.
It also only runs with the power conected dia. across the motor, because the way
the brush holders are turned 90 degrees. This differs from the way larger motor
brushes are placed.

Mark

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Dear Rl2003

Wow this thread is moving Fast.

Is Woppy still awake and reading? I finish my windings and put her to
the test.
Well I thought that Woppy had wired his motor wrong or maybe it was not
alined right, but I have the very same results. It only runs with the power
conected dia. across the motor. No Direct Conection???
So whats going on, anyone figure that out?
I even turned one set of brushes 180 deg. and the same.
I will make a video soon, to show this stange thing.

Mark

Dear friend,

That is the ONLY way it is supposed to run, you are activating Input Coils...now try the other diagonal terminals (opposed to the ones it runs and it should also run...go back to my previous Blue Back (Where TF is the Witch) diagram and connect like that...then measure it..


Regards

Ufopolitics