My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[codeboundfuture]

Common commutator contact ring

Hi everyone,
I need to ask something which will probably turn out to be a stupid question, but here goes:
If I recall correctly, a while back a couple of our members who were working with the 3-pole motors realised that a second commutator was not really neccessary. Instead all the coil ends which would have been connected to the second commutator were connected to a common point or metal washer, on the shaft itself. That then served as a common second terminal for both the Motor and Generator functions. No modification of the motor casing was required.
Can anyone remind me whether there was a flaw in this concept? Why did we not carry this idea forward to the multipole motors? Is it essential that each winding be fully isolated and not share a common terminal on one side?

Hi Anoop,
Yes there are issues with that design and I cannot say if it provides advantages over a symmetrical motor setup but as an asymmetrical motor one issue that I know UFOPolitics has mentioned is that the common connection means that each coil is always 'half way on' or charged.

One advantage to these asymmetrical motors we are working on building is the rapid change in resistance as it disconnects from the brushes and in this setup each coil gets the opportunity to free-wheel or idle (rotate without being energized by you're source). When there is a common connection the idle time interaction gets sent into every pole of your rotor at all 360 degrees of your armatures rotation each and every time a coil discharges (disconnects from your source).

A simple analogy is like a gasoline engine, each cylinder is isolated and has separated intake and exhaust, so that each cylinder gets it's own shot of fuel, and when that cylinder has used up the fuel it is allowed to discharge through a dedicated exhaust port to make room for fresh fuel as well as removing any remaining parasitic pressure which would take away from the machines capabilities. With asymmetric electrodynamic machines when you have a common ground you are introducing restrictions to the intake/outtake because each cylinder/coil is now dealing with the fuel and exhaust of every cylinder/coil no matter where the coil is at in its individual cycle.

matt

[MasterDavid]

I would like to confirm this is far the best OU I've incountered ever!
And a 750W :O CRAZY!!!!

[prochiro]

Three Pole

Hello All
@Anoop
Codeboundfuture is correct and his analogy is great. The fact is that although the three pole will run that way (as symmetric) is no surprise but if one is going to go to the trouble of doing the common ring, it would not work as well as just leaving it alone as symmetric. That is going in circles. There are no shortcuts here and if there were, UFO would have mentioned it. Learning is a step by step process and while learning along the way one may guess where his teaching is going, but without finishing his learning, the guess is usually incorrect. Stay with the plan. Imagine riding in an air plain and looking out the window. What do you see. You will see many many towns and have a clearer understanding of what is going on. Now in your head, back up a few steps and see other things around what you were learning. It helps to maintain perspective.

@ Masterdavid


I will step up and welcome you to our home. Anyone who is doing what you are, will find there energy answers here. I hope you also are patient with us as our information is scattered all over the place and takes time to digest. Welcome again.
Dana


PS: Pay attention to posts by UFO and John Stone as that is where you will find the straight and streamlined track.

[Anoop]

Common connection

@ codeboundfuture

One advantage to these asymmetrical motors we are working on building is the rapid change in resistance as it disconnects from the brushes and in this setup each coil gets the opportunity to free-wheel or idle (rotate without being energized by you're source). When there is a common connection the idle time interaction gets sent into every pole of your rotor at all 360 degrees of your armatures rotation each and every time a coil discharges (disconnects from your source).


Yes, I see what you mean, thanks Matt.
Anoop

[JohnStone]

@Anoop: I'd like to explain what we do here - it is research and all are invited to join. As we deal with facts not being understood well we need to separate as many facts from each other in order to study them.
You might be right with your assumption regarding 3 pole motor - but we possibly come back after a long jurney if we understood the matter.
Nobody being heavy envolved in 4 stroke engines could imagine a 2 stroke one will could work fine. It seems to be more a fact of art than a question of technical matter - but it works fine!
Despite the world needs our soultion soon, we need to go step by step omitting any shortcut. The old wise Romans had a saying: Festina lente! = Make haste slowly!
So do I. I had my motor running fine and disassembled it in order to finish my report for you all.
Now I have it assembled again and refuse to go further before I have done some measurements.
The first measurements for static torque went partly wrong and I need to repeat them. You will get a final report as well.
While doing this step back I prepare for torque measurement while motor running. I have the sensor (contactless - torque, rpm, turn direction) on my desk and need to do some mechanical adaptions.
Power input measurements or voltage output measurements only make no real sense without knowing the shaft power. Few of you will be able to do these measurements but I let you participate on my "festina lente" So it is your success as well.

After all my experience I would recommend to build a 5 pole motor first. It is readily awailable and different from 3 pole the input (motor) and output (generator) are separated. There is no temporary connection between those two sections. And as far I understood UFO, the freee idling of the coils being energized before, foster the radiant effect.
So please follow UFO's teaching and build a motor you can reuse for pulsing later on and prepare for PWM driving. No shortcuts please.
BTW: Any current cordless drill contains a PWM controller. If you have the chance to scavenge one put your hand on it. It is of fix frequency type (ca. 13...16 KHz) but controllable for pulse width.
rgds
JohnS

BTW: I bougt a small dynamotor and it seems to be completely not usable: 13 poles? and very different count of collector sections and diameter as well.

[prochiro]

Hello UFO

Dyno is wire stator.
I have taken the 15 pole rotor out of the Dyno and found the most unique things I have ever seen.
The 15 pin commutators on each end are not connected to any other point except themselves. All pins are connected to each other all the way around but the Ohms change from each pin from any starting pin the same way. When testing two pins next to each other, on right commutator, close pin starts at 6 Ohms and as farther pins are tested, goes to 65 Ohms at 180 degrees. Then as I keep going around Ohms go back down to 6 in the same reverse pattern. Now, on the other 15 pin on the left, close pins start at 21 ohms and end at 243 ohms at 180 degrees around. Note again that there is no connection between ether 15 pin commutator or for that matter there is no connection to any other commutator from any commutator. All connections are totally within each commutator for all four of them. Now for the connection of the larger 45 pin commutators. The left one, whatever pin I put the first lead on shows that the closest 3 pin on both sides are connected for a total of seven pins connected. This pattern holds for whatever pin you start on. There is the same type Ohm patter here starting with 21 and going to 241 on the outer pins of that seven group. Now the right side 45 pin commutator has a twist of its own also. I has the same seven pins pattern but when I place the lead on one pin, the seven others are found at 180 degrees from it.
This whole thing is not making sense to me because if one set of seven are connected and I move the test lead over one pin, the whole group moves by one pin and the pin that was connected to the first set center is now not connected. It is as though there are diodes in line on every wire or something. That can not be true but that is how it acts. Is there something here that we can learn from? I think so, but just tearing it apart at this point will not show us anything. I have checked this thing three times and come up with the same weird data.

15 pole rotor
15 pin outer smaller commutator
45 pin inner commutators
Nothing is connected to pretty much anything

What is going on?
Picture of rotor below.
What I am thinking is that if we find out what is going on here to produce 540 volts and almost no amps, could this be adapted or reversed to produce amps. This is not wired as other Dyno's that I have worked on
Dana.





Dyno2001_zps9debde71.jpg picture by Prochiroone - Photobucket
Dyno2002_zpse38514fe.jpg picture by Prochiroone - Photobucket
Dyno2003_zps78567188.jpg picture by Prochiroone - Photobucket

[thaelin]

@John S

Hi John:
Concerning your dyno-motor, depending on the job it was made for, it could be many things. I used to have one years ago that took 24vdc (air craft) and converted it to an AC signal of 400 hz. They used that due to the interference of the 50/60hz stuff.
With that in mind, you may see the correlation of the output side commutator segments. That would determine part of the equation for its output frequency if ac. Speed of the drive side as well.

Fun to play with but damn, could they give you a good bite.

thay

[JohnStone]

Hi John:
Concerning your dyno-motor, depending on the job it was made for, it could be many things. I used to have one years ago that took 24vdc (air craft) and converted it to an AC signal of 400 hz. They used that due to the interference of the 50/60hz stuff.
With that in mind, you may see the correlation of the output side commutator segments. That would determine part of the equation for its output frequency if ac. Speed of the drive side as well.

Fun to play with but damn, could they give you a good bite.

thay

Thanks! Yes it is exacly built for that option you pointed out, manufactured by AEG for miltary radio equipment - 220V / 100mA Output. My intention was to convert it in UFO motor / generator but that seems to be no option. OK, 18 bucks spent for a nice toy.
JohnS

[kenny_PPM]

Many

Hello Kenny,

It was all my pleasure to kill that Witch!!

Now going back to the three pole design...
Have you thought of making it Three Stators instead of Two?
Then getting Three Brushes...
Very Asymmetric Uh?...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Not initially , no.
I have a lot of ideas, but will start with the basics and build on the progressive knowledge that all contribute and present here.

Should be very interesting!

[prochiro]

Hello All

I just talked with BobFrench who has not been active here for a while. He said to tell you that he is fine and working on his house and wood stove. He also went to Tom Beardens place for the day two weeks ago and Tom told him about a few things that Bob is now working on. WOW, living not to far from Tom, how cool is that.
Dana

[Netica]

Netica
That is a strong and stable circuit. I am using three of there OCX units and have not had any problems with them that was not my own fault. Easy to fix. The waves are almost perfect. By running them on the variable controller of John Stone you can pulse at the exact voltage required for each setup. One idea about that circuit is it may be safer to insert an opto.
Dana

Hi prochiro, JohnStone,

I have found this circuit to be good so far for what we've been doing here, it was easy to make and worked first go with no problems, I would have liked to have been able to scope the output but unfortunately no scope. It is connected to the battery through a voltage regulator. I may try to up the voltage to 15v as you have recommended JohnStone and see how it goes. At this time I'm starting to realize that the heating of the mosfets may be happening from pulsing two very different size coils (rotor coil and stator coil) at the same time.

netica

[prochiro]

Netica
Two thoughts,
1. Both bob and I have blown fets on the ocx which is an advanced version of yours. In both cases the voltage was higher than 12 and the frequency was higher than 1K. This is what JS said might happen. If you up the voltage then can you keep the frequency way down at least until testing is complete. I actually think you could run with 24 volts but the frequency is dangerous.
2. You probably have the rotor stuffed full and cant add there. Just for a test but a vary small resistor on the stator to see if heat is better or worse. That should give you some idea where to go from there. Maybe with that info, UFO or John can help.
I just love your work, so don't blow anything up.
Dana

[Netica]

Netica
Two thoughts,
1. Both bob and I have blown fets on the ocx which is an advanced version of yours. In both cases the voltage was higher than 12 and the frequency was higher than 1K. This is what JS said might happen. If you up the voltage then can you keep the frequency way down at least until testing is complete. I actually think you could run with 24 volts but the frequency is dangerous.
2. You probably have the rotor stuffed full and cant add there. Just for a test but a vary small resistor on the stator to see if heat is better or worse. That should give you some idea where to go from there. Maybe with that info, UFO or John can help.
I just love your work, so don't blow anything up.
Dana

Hi prochiro,

I have run the wound stator arrangement on the motor with 12v, 24v, and 36v at various frequencies. The mosfets obviously heats quicker the more power that is put in to the motor.
However is what I'm trying to say is that what I am realizing at the moment is that pulsing two very different size coils (rotor coil and stator coil) at the same time is causing the heating, not because the rotor coil is to small with to little resistance (this is what I originally thought to).
I can pulse the rotor coil without it even turning all on its own and not get any unusual heating of the mosfets, it seems to be the combination of two completely different size coils causing the heating. The size difference may cause different rates that the coils fields collapse and may effect the mostet. There could be something happening between the two coils and the mosfet, I don't really know yet.

netica

[prochiro]

netica
You have said that pulsing the non rotating rotor and also just the stator coils without heat. Have you tested both at the same time with no rotation? If that does not heat fets up then it may show that too much is coming back to the fet somehow when both are dynamic. Just thinking, which is hard if the machine is not in front of you.
Dana

[Ufopolitics]

Beautiful Gints!!

Hi Dana,

Thank you. In the picture is how it looks inside the machine. I will plan to cut off from outside of tube, where the stator winds will be installed, so I hope the rotor and stator will be as close as possible.

Best regards.

Hey Gints,

That is gonna be a very nice looking Machine!!

Congratulations and looking forward to see it turning soon!..

Regards


Ufopolitics