My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Cornboy

Hey UFO, yeh not too much beer though, still got lots of hard yakka to do.

Well the motor literally has to haul ar***, so better do properly, iron powder is so easy for me, can pour any shape. Can pour it in locked in to alum housing no bolts required, and have great and different shape for winding wire.

What is reason UFO ,will it not build as much flux transfer?. It will handle pulsing, changing fields to 10khz or so without heating much.

I'm getting price for 110 2mm lams as we speak, figuring that 200mm long rotor section would be a nice start, and a few for stuff-ups.

I need to know if it definatly needs to be lam stators so can start drawing up rough design, already had iron powdes design clear in my little brain.

Regards Friend.

Hello Cornboy555,

Glad you did it without many beers...

You could do powder stators...in resin...give it a try that way...it would not hurt it right?

Yet, steel lamination on both (rotor-stator) will be a more solid build and robust design, my friend...but like I said...make it first in resin...it will work also.

You will be knowing if it works...when you get a mechanical load, driving it...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hi UFO,

Yes, UFO, I mentioned your name, and Diane started giggling. I forgot about the wiring so I phoned back and asked if they would leave rotor unwound, I hope she will call back and say, its a go, because that would save 1-2 days labor, I'm sure.

Thanks again UFO, now to look up that gen head.

By the way, the small 3 pole ran at 1570 rpm and seemed quite, torquey, on 44 v constant dc. I ordered some larger diodes today, I had the cap across gen output, but forgot the diodes, that may be why the fets fried, but in the scope shot at the end of last video, when you see spikes in your signal like that there is usually a fet fried, at least i have noticed that.

Somebody asked me to build them a Houlda Clarke Zapper, never built one of those before, sounds quite amazing, if it works like is claimed.

Hello Machine,

Yes, UFO, I mentioned your name, and Diane started giggling...

Yes, I know...I know...She's got a crush on me...

Maybe my Spanish accent...LOL

That would be great you get it without windings...you have no idea how much work is to take that coated resin impregnated by vacuum...as to PULL those wires from it!!

If you have to do it (pulling wires)...get leather working gloves...the resin is like crystals they will cut you.

I have been figuring what the Engineers would say when she ask them to get ready a Motor without wires...no fan...and extra brushes and commutators...

They will go (am sure off) ...WTF??!!

And I mean, honestly...think about it outside this Thread...

Who in his Clear and Sane State of Mind... would spent over three hundred dollars in a Motor that will not have wires?...that will not run?...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Pdf ?

Hello Cornboy555,

Glad you did it without many beers...

You could do powder stators...in resin...give it a try that way...it would not hurt it right?

Yet, steel lamination on both (rotor-stator) will be a more solid build and robust design, my friend...but like I said...make it first in resin...it will work also.

You will be knowing if it works...when you get a mechanical load, driving it...

Regards


Ufopolitics

Hello UFO and all, i was brought up with "if a job's worth doing it's worth doing well" so i will go laminated stators following same grain as rotor. How do you hold them together, bolts through?

UFO your CAD's i couldn't open so i direct emailed them to watercutter. When he opened them he said there was a mass of lines and one diagram of what turned out to be a single rotor arm on it's own, so i dont know what went wrong. He said a PDF would do.


Thanks Mate.

[Ufopolitics]

Group Lines...

Hello UFO and all, i was brought up with "if a job's worth doing it's worth doing well" so i will go laminated stators following same grain as rotor. How do you hold them together, bolts through?

UFO your CAD's i couldn't open so i direct emailed them to watercutter. When he opened them he said there was a mass of lines and one diagram of what turned out to be a single rotor arm on it's own, so i dont know what went wrong. He said a PDF would do.


Thanks Mate.

Hello Cornboy555,

Sorry, I forgot to "group" all rotor lines, I hope that was the problem...I just emailed to you again, and a pdf as well...as also a TCW which is the Turbo CAD format for Windows.


Please let me know.

Yes, Stators could just be , well first it is a similar process as rotor...press laminations all together but in stators you could either mig weld them together by making a groove first in the back, and filling it with weld...where they bolt to outer cylinder frame, then you drill a couple of holes per stator (along stator body) then thread holes for the proper bolt size.

The winding of stators is simple...before bolting to outer frame, you wrap the stator core with a few turns of the wire, but not too tight, so you could pull them loose...then you wrap all turns and take out the Coil...then wrap the coils with high temperature fiberglass tape, and finally add some resin or even tie wraps would do. This way when you bolt them, they will be pressed against inner walls of outer frame cylinder...very secured.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

OK.

UFO, I watched your latest vids again, and the more I watched the more I reliezed what a nice big motor, that 56 imperial is. Also, I kinda felt bad for jumping into my own thing, after you gave us this , and asked us to help by replicating, but I'm only sort of replicating your work.

So, although it's probably too late to release my results when you do, I called imperial today, and spoke to Diane. What a wonderful, nice lady she is. Either that or UFO really charmed her , because I got a really good deal on the first try.

motor P56MD003 $375.00
brush board assemble 0515032 $34.50
commutators 0567028c $25.00 I bought 3 for that price
Shipping to canada unknown

Are these parts correct, I only bought 1 motor because of shipping, no haggling for discounts with UPS.

Cornboy, those are good prices for those big comms. But Toledo is probably next place I would check, they are Kirkwood industries, or kirkwood holdings, now, I think.

So I am gonna do this as well UFO, at least try, it will be 10 days till I get mine probably. So I get some time to find a big gen head, and play with my home made motors, and the small gen head.

I did fry at least one fet. I'm gonna check rpm on constant dc next.

I get so self absorbed in what I am doing, I forget to, step back sometimes, and give my head a good shake. But everything you have told me so far UFO, has been right on.

Thanks Machine and UFO, Toledo have what i need, just waiting to hear outragous price, maybe not.

Thanks Guys.

[Cornboy 555]

It's funny.

Hello Cornboy555,

Well the History you know ..Werewolf can't get along with Vamps ...

Just SAVE the files in your PC...they will not open, IF you do not have the right program my friend...

I posted a link to a free trial Link to versions of Turbo CAD above...but if you are not familiar with it...it is not simple to work with...but just to open it...and when You are done looking at it...Program will ask you If You want Changes saved...select NO!!

Save the Files...and if you want to play with it use the "Save As" option and use another name...NOT IN THE SAME FILE!...or you could damage it...However, you could always comeback to your e-mail and reload it...so, no sweat...

I will love if you could upload here at least a couple of pictures of your previous Motor build...so Members here, have an idea of "Your Quality"...

Regards


Ufopolitics

Hello all, UFO asked if would post some previous builds, so here goes, Please dont laugh, or say i've got nothing better to do with my time and money as i am dead serious to try and bring forward tech that everyone needs.

The pics are of a 3-6-9 setup, 3 neos 3"dia 1" thick 140kg pull force each, on dual rotors, (why not use both N&S of coil) With the potential of 6 motor coils and 9 gen coils either end. This was just to try for charging batterys for std EV motor, hopefully FAST.

First used mechanical switching with direct contact with cams and ball bng's ETC then went to magnetic rotor for pulling contacts together for 30 deegree on time, to attract and then off at TDC or near to repell, even got to the stage of three mech contactors to switch coils, then path for collapse to cap bank, then switch to batteries.

Holy crap, what a freaking noise, needed ear protection to stay more than a min.

Beautiful sparks every where.

YA, can't have that in ya car.

So after that learning, came to conclusion, gota look at tiny crap that i don't understand. SOOO, (hope i'm not boring you) going on UFO's info on pulsing coils with two diodes i decided to try pulsing just one motor coil with 24V and hold rotor so didn't interfear and Presto my guess at 10 x 240V CFL's was correct!, had a light show till started to turn up pulse generator to nearly steady light and WTF happened, toasty bin, because i let the rotor go and the pm flicked past the coil, CRAP, D head.

GOD wish i knew what i was doing!!.

Have lots of other things to show and will because if you are a newbee you need to see.

All the best, cornboy.

[JohnStone]

...
John, we need to figure out a simple as possible system to control My Set Up with the Imperial Motor as the Generator is requested more load ...Normally the Gas Engine has a small little rod (governor or compensator) that opens the Carburetor Gas Throttle to keep the required 3600 RPM's, when engine starts coming down on RPM's...and We all know when we add the loads this "Symmetric" Generators get stiffer, therefore, the Motor needs to increase Input/Output...as it is supposed to come down after load goes off (like for instance an Air Conditioner...when it kicks the Compressor Motor On in its cycle to the refrigerant, and turn it off when expansion valve is satisfied )

We need a circuit, like a shunt type voltage regulator, I may say, that will keep this communication protocol automatically going on during operation.

This is not a "hurry deal"...as We could manually increase power when installing a load on...as also we have a range of RPM's to keep the AC Out Flow steady...that NOT necessarily needs to be EXACTLY and "O'Clock" 3600 RPM's...but could be a Range Interval between...from 3200 to 3800...so we have a "wide play" there to keep Prime Mover running without worries.

Further on we will develop a temperature sensor to kick on a Fan...to cool off machines...which -of course- would be an asymmetrical one...
....

Hi Ufo,
Your thoughts were my concern as well some days ago. We need to clear up some prerequisites before.
As we intend to produce mains voltage I wonder if we can use it to pulse the primemover directly with mains rectified i.e. 110V times 1.41 = 155.55V
Then we get energy out of the standard socket first (and for test) and switch over to gen source later on.
Next advantage: We can reuse the very test setup later on.
Regulation will be done by variable pulse width.
So please give me some input. You have teh best view and can guide out thoughts.

PC PSUs do the very same job. They utlize nice FETs there up to 900V - get defective ones for scanvenging!


BTW: The mechanic setup for my motor test stand is ready and I tinker on electronics now. Two servo motors do well now (for voltage and brake control). I have to do the electronic from torque head (x-cell RT) to PC next.
All computing, display and regulation will be done by PC (see - scroll down) along nice dashboards (including online view via WEB - if necessary) and nice graphs as well on dashboard and in Excel as well.
Your request for regulation can be done as well in order to investigate the basics and tuning for parameteres. Temperature - peanuts.
JohnS

[Ufopolitics]

Yes...exactly, John

Hi Ufo,
Your thoughts were my concern as well some days ago. We need to clear up some prerequisites before.
As we intend to produce mains voltage I wonder if we can use it to pulse the primemover directly with mains rectified i.e. 110V times 1.41 = 155.55V
Then we get energy out of the standard socket first (and for test) and switch over to gen source later on.
Next advantage: We can reuse the very test setup later on.
Regulation will be done by variable pulse width.
So please give me some input. You have teh best view and can guide out thoughts.

PC PSUs do the very same job. They utlize nice FETs there up to 900V - get defective ones for scanvenging!


BTW: The mechanic setup for my motor test stand is ready and I tinker on electronics now. Two servo motors do well now (for voltage and brake control). I have to do the electronic from torque head (x-cell RT) to PC next.
All computing, display and regulation will be done by PC (see - scroll down) along nice dashboards (including online view via WEB - if necessary) and nice graphs as well on dashboard and in Excel as well.
Your request for regulation can be done as well in order to investigate the basics and tuning for parameteres. Temperature - peanuts.
JohnS

Hello John,


Yes, you knew and I knew We will be talking about this sometime...

I will tell you what am planning to set, and please, do not hesitate to correct me if am wrong.

1- I intend to use first a two 12 V 33 Amps [792 Watts] Gel/AGM Batteries , they are mid-size (not like an Automotive) and see what response I get from Prime Mover, as far as RPM's and Torque. If I get good parameters (over 3600 RPM's/which am sure I will...and Torque) then I will start loading Generator, I got Four 500 Watts Incandescent Spot Lights, which I plan to start loading one by one.

In the event 24V/33A will not do (meaning no lights or too dim, RPM drops and Controller all the way Up)...then moving up to 36V/33A [1188Watts] Bank(just adding an extra battery, same type).

I know it will go over board with the 36 Bank...but I want to start at lowest V/A>W

I will be using my same Old 555/2397 N-Channel Controller (did not have the time to build a fancy Stone's Style yet... )

We will "brake" OU point even IF source top 36/33[1188] and I get the Four 500W [2000W] fully bright...even three fully lit we all know We did it...But I want to take the set up to its MAX SURGE OUT [6000 Watts]...meaning, go full blast top speed and loading heavier loads (AC 9000 BTU's)

So far this is what I am planning as initial testing...AND IF those Batteries will not do their job, then I will move to automotive batteries heavy cranking amperage and fast charging capabilities...still going 36 Volts MAX...I am pretty sure we will not need to use 48V System here..."too much"...

It is clear to me what you are saying about starting Prime Mover first on Battery Bank, then when System "warmed up" try to "close the loop"...after all that is our dream right?

Now, to do this (and please do correct me if am wrong) I believe we need a Capacitor Reservoir feeding the Prime Mover, (normally all EV's have a heavy Cap Bank at controller, connected parallel to source, typically 1000 uF times eight or ten and rated over supply voltage by 30-40Volts) that will supply-at least- for the Nano Seconds Power switching takes over, since We know the Curve will drop down faster than jumping down a perfectly vertical cliff wearing max weight...(hope typical polarized electrolytic capacitors could do the solid "bridge" we need to hold our "jump")...
Now on the Generator side (to supply the super-fast "bridge construction) I have a couple of old transformers to do that job...they are from the same batteries source, their chargers...However, here I believe a Second Alternative,...A faster, new design switching PSU (like you have said) will do a much better and faster "bridge construction job"...as let me say, I do not attempt to switch everything "instantly" in either alternatives...but have Caps fully loaded as PSU or Trafo (transformer) warm enough to switch Sources...

Related to PSU's spec's, I believe We need over the Wattage of the Battery Bank Supply.
Related to Prime Mover driving, I believe we need to increase speed before switching supplies.

And John...the Automatic PWM Speed/Torque regulation according to loads could be done later on...since manual operation and keeping track by full video filming must be done first...then we will go over this issue...once corrected and knowing required parameters...then we will move to auto-switching as auto speed control.

But am sure it will be fun...doing all this, after knowing we already have a winner...

As I also know cooling the system are peanuts for later on development...piece of cake (as we say here)...just like thinking what color will the structure frame will wear...




Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

P.D: BTW, beautiful toys you are showing there!!...lovely!!
I love that small speed/torque sensor!!...wow!...I knew we could find it!!...many thanks John for your excellent and non stopping search for all this required goodies!!

[JohnStone]

...
I try using IRF7307 device to drive MOSFET or MOSFETS. I will greatly appreciate your advice. ...

OK, light and shadow - both!
Lets's start with mechanic imagination: In order to build a lathe you need a lathe first!
Your suggestion for IFR7107 is a nice double FET arrangement but you need to drive them fast as well - if not they will react lazy as well and forward teh lazyness as well. If you do not feel how FETs feel you might have less or no success. It is highly dynamic like dealing with masses, springs, inertia, static and kinetic energy.
I recommend to do it either quick & dirty (individual 555 for any FET pair being close together) or use dedicated FET drivers like Cornboy (FOD3180). You should have at least one such stage in order to compare your success. The Cornboy make has the additional advantage of optical separtion.
Please understand your suggestion might do well but how can you verify that? So I recommend to have a reference like 555 design AND FOD3180 and compare any make of yours to this (by scope, by output effects, heat ...)

[machinealive]

Hey UFO,

Dianne said it was a no go, on unwound motors, so I bugged a bit, spoke to Joe the engineer, and found out it was only because they do not have a part number for unwound motors. So now Dianne is checking to see what kind of a price we get if we buy components, ie rotor core assemble with green resin coated coe, stator frame assemble, etc.

I am at work, but I will call in an hour or two and let you guys know what she said.

[JohnStone]

.....
1- I intend to use first a two 12 V 33 Amps [792 Watts] Gel/AGM Batteries , they are mid-size (not like an Automotive) and see what response I get from Prime Mover, as far as RPM's and Torque. If I get good parameters (over 3600 RPM's/which am sure I will...and Torque) then I will start loading Generator, I got Four 500 Watts Incandescent Spot Lights, which I plan to start loading one by one.

In the event 24V/33A will not do (meaning no lights or too dim, RPM drops and Controller all the way Up)...then moving up to 36V/33A [1188Watts] Bank(just adding an extra battery, same type).

I know it will go over board with the 36 Bank...but I want to start at lowest V/A>W

I will be using my same Old 555/2397 N-Channel Controller (did not have the time to build a fancy Stone's Style yet... )

We will "brake" OU point even IF source top 36/33[1188] and I get the Four 500W [2000W] fully bright...even three fully lit we all know We did it...But I want to take the set up to its MAX SURGE OUT [6000 Watts]...meaning, go full blast top speed and loading heavier loads (AC 9000 BTU's)

So far this is what I am planning as initial testing...AND IF those Batteries will not do their job, then I will move to automotive batteries heavy cranking amperage and fast charging capabilities...still going 36 Volts MAX...I am pretty sure we will not need to use 48V System here..."too much"...

It is clear to me what you are saying about starting Prime Mover first on Battery Bank, then when System "warmed up" try to "close the loop"...after all that is our dream right?

Now, to do this (and please do correct me if am wrong) I believe we need a Capacitor Reservoir feeding the Prime Mover, (normally all EV's have a heavy Cap Bank at controller, connected parallel to source, typically 1000 uF times eight or ten and rated over supply voltage by 30-40Volts) that will supply-at least- for the Nano Seconds Power switching takes over, since We know the Curve will drop down faster than jumping down a perfectly vertical cliff wearing max weight...(hope typical polarized electrolytic capacitors could do the solid "bridge" we need to hold our "jump")...
Now on the Generator side (to supply the super-fast "bridge construction) I have a couple of old transformers to do that job...they are from the same batteries source, their chargers...However, here I believe a Second Alternative,...A faster, new design switching PSU (like you have said) will do a much better and faster "bridge construction job"...as let me say, I do not attempt to switch everything "instantly" in either alternatives...but have Caps fully loaded as PSU or Trafo (transformer) warm enough to switch Sources...

Related to PSU's spec's, I believe We need over the Wattage of the Battery Bank Supply.
Related to Prime Mover driving, I believe we need to increase speed before switching supplies....

You are right to do testing with batteries first - oh wait - except perhaps from some standard welding devices. They are limitied to about 40volts und er load and are dedicated to high currents - some with DC as well.

But I referred to pulsing above.
My concern is: can we pulse with 155V (mains rectified along caps) to the motor directly. The high voltage will generate nice steep pulses and we do not need to add any other circuits than rectifier, caps, pulser. The pulser will not need to be build for steady 100A or more. The duty cycle will be about 30% in order to feed the prime mover with teh energy required. It is very similar to primary switched PSUs but the motor itself is the inductance limiting the pulse current.
It will be very convenient in order to avoid big transformers.
My question is not if it can be done technically but if it is conforming your technology - will it be the genuine pulsing you intend to do?
@ALL-WARNING: Please understand this idea above as theoretical as long you are not a WELL trained person. Any mistake or acident with mains power or above can be lethal for you or other poersons! So stand back of it! Conforming international standards contact to voltages above 42.4V are deemed to be dangerous for healthy persons as well.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello John

You are right to do testing with batteries first - oh wait - except perhaps from some standard welding devices. They are limitied to about 40volts und er load and are dedicated to high currents - some with DC as well.

But I referred to pulsing above.
My concern is: can we pulse with 155V (mains rectified along caps) to the motor directly. The high voltage will generate nice steep pulses and we do not need to add any other circuits than rectifier, caps, pulser. The pulser will not need to be build for steady 100A or more. The duty cycle will be about 30% in order to feed the prime mover with teh energy required. It is very similar to primary switched PSUs but the motor itself is the inductance limiting the pulse current.
It will be very convenient in order to avoid big transformers.
My question is not if it can be done technically but if it is conforming your technology - will it be the genuine pulsing you intend to do?
@ALL-WARNING: Please understand this idea above as theoretical as long you are not a WELL trained person. Any mistake or acident with mains power or above can be lethal for you or other poersons! So stand back of it! Conforming international standards contact to voltages above 42.4V are deemed to be dangerous for healthy persons as well.

Hello John,

As we intend to produce mains voltage I wonder if we can use it to pulse the primemover directly with mains rectified i.e. 110V times 1.41 = 155.55V

My concern is: can we pulse with 155V (mains rectified along caps)

I am kind of lost there John...why the 155V value?...where did the value 1.41 came from?

The only controller I have as of now will only take Max 36V. And I am constrained just because of the LM317 Voltage Regulator...and still hoping (and praying too) not to blow its Amps limits of only 1.0 Amp...well, it is a self recuperating transistor...but will do get super hot...even though I have it on nice sinks and fan blowing right on top...
My 2397's FETS will take up to 400V and over 100A (I believe, not sure now...but somewhere there...may be 85A or so)

The Generator Head to be on this Set-Up, outputs 120V/50Amps or 240V/25A...[6000W]

On the other hand, in order for the Motor Coils to take the 155V, I will need to increase resistance as I will have to change wire gauge spec's to a finer one...and much more turns per actuating pairs (coils)...would this be worth it?

I mean, I DO understand exactly what you are saying...we will get very High Ramp pulses there...Motor will go SUPER FAST and Much Higher Torque...

But, We also have to realize, the Unit I am putting together here is intended to be a portable system...in a portable system we are definitively constrained to Battery Supply...Then going back to Motor...IF it runs Max/Full blast at 36 Volts ...definitively will be fried if we climb V to 150 Volts...I mean, I believe so...

On the other hand...taking 155V and say 50 Amps (Gen output) we will be exhausting all energy produced and be on the red line...[7750 Watts]...even at 155/25 Amps...we will be exceeding the 50% Output from Genny...[3875 Watts]...I really see no point here John, please enlighten me as I am confused and dark...haha

BTW...I am planning to run it also on my LiPo's 36V 9A...just for fun and to see what it does...


Regards John


Ufopolitics

EDIT 1: Wait!...I just realize I have a 48 Volts and over 100 Amps Controller...a Curtis Davis..I believe...so yes...as also a nice bank of Six Eight Volts Deep Cycle Batteries...However...I am very sure we will NOT need that much power...trust me.

[Ufopolitics]

Unbelievable!!

Hey UFO,

Dianne said it was a no go, on unwound motors, so I bugged a bit, spoke to Joe the engineer, and found out it was only because they do not have a part number for unwound motors. So now Dianne is checking to see what kind of a price we get if we buy components, ie rotor core assemble with green resin coated coe, stator frame assemble, etc.

I am at work, but I will call in an hour or two and let you guys know what she said.

Hello Machine,

Oh that is bad...I mean She was supposed to get back to me...but she never did...I just got a mail from her...but not mentioning the UFO Deal...

Incredible...just because of a part number Uh?...I mean we could give them all the numbers they want!!...right?...

Anyways let me know...

However, You've got heck of prices there my friend...go back and see on previous pages...how much Turion paid for this parts and Motors...just because of talking to the wrong girl...haha

Sorry Turion!!...Not meaning to pick on You my friend...just bringing history up...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

@ MachineAlive

Machine...

I just sent Dyann a couple of pic's BELOW, so she sees what we do with this "poor creatures"...LOL

[IMG][/IMG]

and...


[IMG][/IMG]


I am sure she will go...OMG!!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[machinealive]

super prices

OK,

Bearing 0566001 $4.00
Bearing 0566000 $4.00
comm 0567028c 2@$25.00
Brush assemble 0515032 2@$34.00
stator frame assemble $49.15
core assemble $35.00

Total $210.00

Wow, I got two coming now ufo, which will be cheaper then 1 with the good deal we already got.
But, I had to sell you to Diane. But only for a week.
Just kidding, I told her you were my grandfather and we were doing up your scooter, so you and your friends at the retirement community, could race each other to the drugstore, for viagra.