My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[mikec_ut]

Slanted 12 Pole

@UFO
I do not remember all the comments made before but I found some 12 Pole 2 brush motors @24 volts that are real nice. After taking them apart and starting to put the second comm on the shaft a mental problem crossed my mind. The rotor has slanted slots from one comm to the other making the end of the slot aligning with the next beginning slot. Q: do you wind the coil to match the exact opposite comm or do you wind the coil to match the same pole ending position comm? or do you just align the brushes so both ends of the coil are connected regardless of what brush position you use?

PS: In the past I did not have to think about this issue, all of the conversions I have done so far have had straight armature slots.

[prochiro]

Slanted rotors

Mike
This is a good question and the answer is easy. As the brushes are or will be all alined, so must be the commutators. Run the coil end leads back so everything lines up straight regardless of the slant. Good luck and happy winding.
Dana

[Cornboy 555]

Hey DANA, how ya' feelin these days.

Warmest Regards and Blessings, Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

Of Course You could...

HI Ufo!,
wow really like the generator and attraction diagram. Studied them a bit and I can see my earlier post would need more interpolation to get those designs into a 20-pole Baldor. I have been kicking around a double rotor Baldor generator, joining 2 motors together. I can get my hands on another baldor too at my goldmine store, but the price is a little higher and I haven't jumped on it there. For the motor I am favoring attraction low amp mode. Maybe I could leave a little extra loop of wire and using connectors you could reconfigure a motor without even rewinding... I suppose I could use similar geometry. I see how the coil to segment geometry is shifted for each, so it appears my first guess on the attraction mode is wrong in post 6016.

So can the P15 diagrams be adapted to my 20-pole by maintaining the geometric relationship of the coils and their commutator segments?

TIA, Sam

Hello Sam,

Yes indeed you could apply the P15 to your 20 poles...You just have to look at it in a "Modular Segmented Area" where the Interactions start and end for just one Pair...after that Interactions start to reproduce when P2 comes into play.
The best to look at this is to set it in a "Linear Fashion" in order to see it better.

Related to the Generator Mode, you do not need to make another machine or rotor to do this...just set it as a regular motor config...whether attract or repulse, then catch the generating sweep of coils by setting additional brushes that will collect at that stage...then you could use your machine as both, generator and motor...having in mind can not use both at same time though...because you will be interfering with the sequential induction when you energize coils at motor stage...

About your previous post with diagrams , yes it is right, actually you have answered yourself when you make your own conclusions...

When you reverse feed, and considering motor not set in Neutral Mode (remember Neutral Mode contains both interactions "balanced out", Repulse-Attract), so, yes, you are generating the opposed method to rotate it, (meaning, if it was set to attract, then reversed would be repulse, and so on) and of course, making the right adjustments from TDC.

Realize that all depends upon the Geometry of the Pairs settings, and their Asymmetry related to stators sweep angles. Example: in the P15 there is always a very unbalance between Coils in the Pair, so the Angles of interactions would be very different, no matter if at repulse or attract...however, at high speed they will compensate.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Slanted Cores...

@UFO
I do not remember all the comments made before but I found some 12 Pole 2 brush motors @24 volts that are real nice. After taking them apart and starting to put the second comm on the shaft a mental problem crossed my mind. The rotor has slanted slots from one comm to the other making the end of the slot aligning with the next beginning slot. Q: do you wind the coil to match the exact opposite comm or do you wind the coil to match the same pole ending position comm? or do you just align the brushes so both ends of the coil are connected regardless of what brush position you use?

PS: In the past I did not have to think about this issue, all of the conversions I have done so far have had straight armature slots.

Hello Mike,

Yes, exactly like Dana wrote...just keep straight lines between comm segments vertically and parallel to shaft, do not let the cores slant angles to distract you. However, make sure you get to "see" where each coil starts and ends related to stators, and use the "cross" created by the slanted angle and the vertical line from stator limits to set this start-end point, just like this...l//l , but intersecting each others.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[mikec_ut]

Slanted cores ...

@Dana, UFO
Thanks for the confirmation of setting the comm alignment and the winding of the coils. I am going to use the fiberglass stator arrangement and not the permanent magnets and I will have 180 deg. brush rotation available on both ends. I'll post some pics when I get a little closer.

The motor has sealed ball bearings on both ends and has small coils in series with the brushes. Will the coils have any adverse effect when pulsating the motor?

[Ufopolitics]

Small Coils=Inductors

@Dana, UFO
Thanks for the confirmation of setting the comm alignment and the winding of the coils. I am going to use the fiberglass stator arrangement and not the permanent magnets and I will have 180 deg. brush rotation available on both ends. I'll post some pics when I get a little closer.

The motor has sealed ball bearings on both ends and has small coils in series with the brushes. Will the coils have any adverse effect when pulsating the motor?

Hello Mike,

Those small coils are Inductors or "Chokes" in this case...they are there to catch spikes, like filtering reverse flow. Normally used in motors attached to electronics or near sensitive to RFI equipment ...I do not think they will do nothing but to add certain small resistance value(almost nothing though)...try first with them installed then take them off and observe if any difference in behavior.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Repulse-Attract Modes

I believe the following diagrams are all repulsion mode. They all seem to have the basic winding pattern you first established with the Radio Shack motor.

I added the brushes here to ascertain their exact location to the P1 coil and thus the exact commutator segment the coils would attach to...


Here is the P22 coil that shows the commutator and coil connections. It also is using your basic asymmetric winding pattern (as does the imperial).

I am using this diagram of the Radio Shack motor as it seems to be using the basic asymmetric winding pattern but it is showing a significantly different brush position. But in winding a N or S coil it is excellent in showing the direction of the wire winding from and to the commutator segments. Also I am assuming that the outer commutator is the FRONT commutator, inner is the aft commutator in general for these diagrams.



Here is the question. Taking the first P20 diagram, the N and S coils are reversed to convert to Attraction mode. Is this correct, Ufo?



Here is another question. If you have a motor built to the design of a repulsion mode, if you reverse the positive and negative connections of power input, does the motor change from repulsion to attraction mode? Of course if it is not neutral timining it will have to be reset the opposite offset from TDC.

Multo grazie, UFO!

Hello Sampojo,


Ok, I believe you already have clarified this doubts...right?

But anyways I would go over them...

When we have a Two Stator, Two Brush Structure, we try to use advantage of BOTH, Repulse and Attract Modes from just ONE Pair, as shown in your P20 Diagram.
Now, when you reverse coils feed like shown in your last diagram of the same P20...what you are doing is just swapping the repulse-attract Interactions positioning, therefore changing rotation sense. also note the rotor is set in NEUTRAL Position related to the SOUTH Stator Bisector or at perfect TDC.

Please do not confuse when I set the P15 on Attract and Repulse modes before, note that ALL Interactions are FULLY, either repulse or attract for each diagram...Why?...because if you look at them again, closely...would notice that in the Attract Mode...the Repulsion Angles set of Bisectors is so far away that it would NOT Count (disregarded) as it will for the Attract Mode Angles that BOTH BISECTORS create (Stators and Rotor Coils) are very close (shortest angle) and it has become the main "motoring" function here...and so on the opposite with the Repulse Mode.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Now, You cited Imperial, which is a Four Stator, Four Brush Structure...and related to Repulse Attract we can NOT relate the same way we did with a Two Pole System...take a look:

[IMG][/IMG]

Please note that ALL (MOTOR) Coils, meaning P1-P15, no matter if North or South are all at Repulsion Mode related to each corresponding Stator Bisector, either North or South. P8-P22 are Generator Coils in this Diagram, so, if fed externally, it must be done in the same polarity direction as they output, meaning reversed to Motor Coils.
I don't know if you remember, cause you are not working with Imperial...but we had an issue with swapped magnet stators from factory mount, set differently than my drawing above...creating Machine to work on Attract Mode...even though the guys were doing everything correct,...This caused (because of poor timing related to attract mode) the rotor not to reach desired RPM's as in Repulse Mode, as well as poor Torque.

Let me know if you "Capisci" better now...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Re: commutator connection mechanism p6022 Comment UFO?

Hi Sam,

It is normal solder wire that we use for soldering while making circuits - available in hardware store. A mix of tin and lead.

Yes. I designed and made it by myself. The manufacturer gave the design like that of any other motor. In my first attempt I soldered it very shabbily and the wires were coming out from the elements. It was neither serving the purpose nor looking good. Then I removed all the wires from the commutator elements and did it this way. I used a ring and poured the melted solder wire into it. After sometime, I removed the ring and filed to get 15 elements. It is very strong in holding the armature leads and looking good as well.

Regards and Namaste

Kumar

Hi Kumar, pardon me for asking, and it is a very fine construction you have made. I am not sure if I have this correct or not but I believe UFO has said soldering in the commutator area is not good as he has had solder splattered around quiet a bit in his motors.

I too am faced with this fastening dilemma. I have saved the original wires on one commutator which may be conveniently wired into a simple connector. But the other I have dremmeled out. So I am thinking to put wires back, at least using the same pressed-into-place mechanical connection, but back it up with silver solder since I am sure I cannot put wires into a commutator as well as the manufacturer. I see you have at least run you motor on low power? with no derogatory affects. This at least tells me a commutator can take soldering heat. But to escape the problem of simple solder I guess fastening in this area will need higher heat as with silver solder to withstand radiant energy, but I can't afford to experiment and destroy a commutator, if it cannot stand the heat of silver soldering. I have gotten a butane microtorch and I will get see if it can at least do the connectors on my good wired commutator and go from there.

you are doing great work Kumar, thanks for sharing.

[ajaya999]

Commutator elements soldered

I am not sure if I have this correct or not but I believe UFO has said soldering in the commutator area is not good as he has had solder splattered around quiet a bit in his motors.

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the appreciation. This splashing definitely is something of real concern. But you can cover the rest parts of the armature and solder the commutator ( as i did this soldering after the commutator was mounted on the rotor). Still you might find the splattered frozen silver on the commutator. But you can easily remove them and they will not be big in number.

In fact when I first did the commutator elements soldered, it was really NOT serving the purpose. One or two of them were always coming out for every trial. Time and again I had to remove the armature and resolder them. Then I took a break for two days and did this type of soldering arrangement. I was doing it with a lot of fear and worry in my mind as I didn't find this type of soldering in any of the replication videos. But once it's done, it came out wonderful in holding the wires. Filing them requires some patience, but not a worrisome task.

I am waiting for UFOPOLITICS response on my next course. Once he gives guidance and clearance, I'll do one or two more motors converted to his design. At that time definitely I'll shoot a video on commutator soldering and post it. This time I'll take care to give only content without boring you all with long videos with a very little content

Thanks again Sam for the encouraging appreciation.

Regards and Namaste

Kumar

[Ufopolitics]

Sam, Sam...

Hi Kumar, pardon me for asking, and it is a very fine construction you have made. I am not sure if I have this correct or not but I believe UFO has said soldering in the commutator area is not good as he has had solder splattered around quiet a bit in his motors.

I too am faced with this fastening dilemma. I have saved the original wires on one commutator which may be conveniently wired into a simple connector. But the other I have dremmeled out. So I am thinking to put wires back, at least using the same pressed-into-place mechanical connection, but back it up with silver solder since I am sure I cannot put wires into a commutator as well as the manufacturer. I see you have at least run you motor on low power? with no derogatory affects. This at least tells me a commutator can take soldering heat. But to escape the problem of simple solder I guess fastening in this area will need higher heat as with silver solder to withstand radiant energy, but I can't afford to experiment and destroy a commutator, if it cannot stand the heat of silver soldering. I have gotten a butane microtorch and I will get see if it can at least do the connectors on my good wired commutator and go from there.

you are doing great work Kumar, thanks for sharing.

Hello Sampojo,

Yes I did say that...and still do...

Commutators Elements and wires from coils must be clamped, crimped, fastened Mechanically basically, after, you could solder, tin plate it or else. And of course I am referring when we are using high voltages and high amperage than 5V and Milli Amps.

Maybe because you would be running your Baldor with the Monster Off Set Quad Waves , or sorry Dual Waves...since you only have two brushes...you will not build such high wattage that would melt the soldering into liquid and splatter it all over the internal walls of your motor...which is not a problem, actually it looks "cool"......But what am concern wires would come out loose and short galore within machine.

It is not "my idea" about this way to hook comm elements and wires...it has been done ever since the first brush comm machine was ever built in a bench.

Speaking about my other post to you, Sam, related to Attract-Repulse confusions you had...did you clear it friend?

Kind Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

I am waiting for UFOPOLITICS response on my next course. Once he gives guidance and clearance, I'll do one or two more motors converted to his design.

Regards and Namaste

Kumar

Kumar,

I thought I've already shown all related material to follow/build on your Machine Design in all my previous posts?!

I believe your P15 had gotten more CAD's and explanations than any other Structure shown here so far...

First I laid down for you to decide on what you want your machine to be?...A Motor or a Generator...?

Then I have exposed Two ways to set the Motor (Repulse or Attract)...
And the way to build the Generator with a nice looking Gradient in Green background...

I believe you have enough material there as to build Three Different Machines to be tested my friend!

Then, please...do not wait on more to come from Me, till you decide which way you want to follow first and then build.

You wrote your motor ran at 200 RPMs...that's not good, something not done right there...like I said before, you have a small difference from the rest of other majority of models which is the wound stators versus permanent magnets...but I also gave you some routes to follow on that side, even to build the asymmetric stator you have already a frame built...and all related material to wind that Stator is also on my videos and info here...sorry, but you will have to go through those posts and videos like everyone else did here a while back.



Kind Regards and Namaste


Ufopolitics

[ajaya999]

Dear sir,

Namaste. Thanks a lot for the support extended in designing the 1hp 15 pole dc motor. And now I think I can make it.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I was waiting for your guidance - keeping in my mind my post number 6016. I think it was missed from attention. I'm giving the link here. Pl go by it.

And in that I requested you to permit and guide me to go for higher configuration motors. In case you ask me to complete this 1 hp 15 pole first before going for higher configuration, I'll do it and present the results to the forum. Then will go for higher config.

Here is the link to my post number 6016 sir.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post247935

I'll do as you suggest me to do.

Regards and Namaste

Kumar

[ajaya999]

Commutator elements soldered

Hi Sam,

On reading the post of our guide, I understood that the problem might arise in future while running the motors and not while making it. I couldn't visualize it. Yes. Now I understood it might happen, though I didn't experience it so far as I was working with low voltages and lower amps.

Now I think I better change the connection through tags in my later versions.

Thanks for the question and helping me understanding further.

Regards and Namaste.

Kumar

[wonza]

So it's been 1.5 years since this thread was first opened. As builds etc went way over my head I now keep coming back every few weeks or so to check on things. I'm just wondering what's the most promising results we've had so far? Any real proof of OU yet? I understand these things take time