My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[shylo]

Brush locations

Hello my Dear Friend Kogs

For a better communication, we should keep considering the start winding at driving end of shaft, where we apply the Positive to Input Gates.


Ufopolitics

Hi All ,I would like to attempt winding this motor, but I only have a ten pole,but should be able to follow Kogs diagram?
I would just have twice as many pairs.??
Also I don't understand brush placement , Kogs your pic ,do you feed top com with positive of battery , negative on bottom com?
And then there is a second brush on top com and another on bottom com used for generation collection?

I'm obviously missing something....can this motor be driven with just a battery for supply or does it require some form of electronic circuitry , to control input feed?
If when powering pair 1 creating a North electro-magnet, then it rotates and the power is shut off, does P1 now become a South electro-magnet, due to the collapsing field?

Looking forward to your more detailed info, Hopefully I can do a replication.

Thanks to All especially UFO for the efforts put forward.
artv

[iankoglin]

G'Day shylo;252697
You wrote here and my replies in Magenta and RED
Hi All ,I would like to attempt winding this motor, but I only have a ten pole, but should be able to follow Kogs diagram?
I would just have twice as many pairs.??
Also I don't understand brush placement , Kogs your pic ,do you feed top com with positive of battery , negative on bottom com?
And then there is a second brush on top com and another on bottom com used for generation collection?

Yes just as UFO stated to keep things standard we have the positive coming in from the TOP the drive end of the motor as I showed in writing at the top of my pic
Also as the commutator rotates the Power brushes on contact with the particular comm segment feed this Motor/Armature coil and drive the motor causing the power brushes to leave this comm segment then this coil then become a generator and when this comm segment reaches the Generator Brushes they collect the generated power.


I'm obviously missing something....can this motor be driven with just a battery for supply or does it require some form of electronic circuitry , to control input feed?

You can use just a battery to run these machines BUT it is more efficient to use a PWM driven Mosfet driver, you can use the one UFO shared with us it is easy to build but I believe that the JS Monster is more efficient but harder to build in any case for starters either one will work here I am using JS's Monster to run my Bicycle motor but in my Nessie(Tricycle) I am using UFO's Mosfet driver because he asked me to do my tests with it on this Chinese 1000w motor and I will continue using it as the tests for my part is using the motor in a real application to show all my friends and sceptics that these motors DO WORK and I am not a MAD scientist.

If when powering pair 1 creating a North electro-magnet, then it rotates and the power is shut off, does P1 now become a South electro-magnet, due to the collapsing field?

Yes I believe that any time a current is applied (The brush touches the commutator segment)to an Inductor in this case (the winding on the armature) an opposing current is immediately dropped across that inductor in the exact opposite direction and as soon as the applied current is CUT (the brush passes the commutator segment) this opposing current continues for a split second and as it is in the opposite direction the Polarity of the winding is also changed to the opposite to what was first intended

Looking forward to your more detailed info, Hopefully I can do a replication.

I am sure you can replicate just as you are doing now first get things straight in your mind and then you will understand what you are doing


Thanks to All especially UFO for the efforts put forward.
artv

We here want all Replicator's to succeed

Kindest Regards

Kogs Just trying to help

[sampojo]

Exciting stuff

neurons firing up a bit I see. Nice job UFO! Right under our noses, eh? well excuse me while I try to stay afloat here and keep mine above water level... As soon as I get those taxes done and hold off those doctors, I will see what I can get to! Almost done with my baldor commutators, but I am getting an antsy feeling the old winding might be obsolete. Looks like it still one pole to one commutator connection... Just needs developed for more poles as you mention.

[asollid]

Hi Ian I understand that when the current to a rotor segment is cut, the new momentary field will then reverse. But will the new momentary field be aiding the generator segment or opposing the generator segment? I dont have a scope to find out.

[DadHav]

Hello Midaz,

Well, is good to know you are flexible...



Midaz, like we have discussed in several mails before...it is great we have "doors open" at Imperial Motors, and I agree we can not miss our next hit...since the first attempt was "burnt" already...

I know you are flexible, plus you are also a smart guy... (get ready... )

Midaz, when I first started writing on this Forum...I already had built and experimented with several Asymmetric Motors Structures (not Imperial though, but I had build the BOSCH 20 Poles)..and... of all this Machines the one that really impressed me the most...was the simple Three Pole configuration...when I did the Radio Shack Five Pole...I was happy, however, I noticed the performance and "strange effects" that I had experienced on the 3 pole...were not there on the 5 pole little motor.

However, we kept going and building more complicated machines like Imperial.

I must recognize I was very stubborn then...and I did not listen to great experimenters here on the field of small motors like Dad Hav, now I admit He was right when he tested this Five Pole Radio Shack Motor...

However, this is an Experimental and very new Technology...and none of Us have been able to test this Heavy Machines under rigorous and radical Industrial Typical Testing Environments like Imperial Motors has.

Now going back to the 3 Pole Motor...I did not see any differences at that time related to the Radio Shack Five Pole...now I do, and the reason was to be working on the N-Machines small models, as reading a lot of literature about this machines that goes back to Faraday days...I got to "see" more about Magnetic Fields and their real properties/attributes none of Us was taught before on this fields...then I went back to our Machines...

I will be brief here by jumping to my final conclusions...I re did that Five Pole Radio Shack motor...this time applying those concepts...and making it identical in those attributes to the Three Poles...and guess what?

I wound it with same exact spec's as our typical one (wire gauge, turns etc) but a different winding...that's all...and the difference in the results were too extreme apart my friend...too much difference in "supremacy" over the older model...too much to say..."let's forget about it by now, and keep going the way we did it originally..."

At the same token I feel bad for finding this new approach...I feel bad for so many people that had gone fully in spending their money epoxying and balancing this machines, like I also did with Imperial...but, again, it was not something I knew for a long time...I just found out a few days ago.

The good news is that Structure keeps being the same as before...it is just the way to wind them...and I would be uploading a video where I compare both Asymmetric Small Machines.

I am going to get a UFO Kit to try this on a Four Brush System.



It would be an even better experience, my friend...and I am not starting "N-Machines" here......I would be just showing my new findings on this other type of winding this rotors.

What if I tell you that this new type of winding bring Imperial Amp Draw to less than half or even more than we have right now?...while the Output would be bigger...without loosing , but optimizing all attributes related to Torque and Speed?

What if I say...that now, it will Optimize every single attribute plus adding a much smoother running?

..even testing it with a Power Supply Unit..

Would you become "non flexible" and ask me to still get the old system to Imperial Motors?

It is up to you all guys here... that have this type of Machines and are working on them.

But, remember...can not screw up again with Imperial...or we will loose them.


Regards


Ufopolitics

UFO, I promised not to post as long as my name wasn't mentioned. Well, I have to admit I didn't expect I'd be replying to a compliment. Thanks for that, but it's all water under the bridge for me, I'm to old to worry about how long I can hold a grudge. I like the idea of the winding change on the small motor and think it will probably work better. It would be good to see some positive results on a small project that more people could get involved with. Good luck. Who knows, maybe I'll be taking down or replacing my video soon. Ha, don't forget I still have my R/C plane stuffed with confetti ready for the celebration.
RGDS to all.
John

[s e t h]

Hi Ian I understand that when the current to a rotor segment is cut, the new momentary field will then reverse. But will the new momentary field be aiding the generator segment or opposing the generator segment? I dont have a scope to find out.

In my opinion as long as the stator and the rotor are both electromagnets then when the current is simultaneously cut to both the rotor and stator segments it won't matter as both coils will iether stay the same or reverse their polarity. If they both follow the same law then the momentary (collapsing?)field will be assisting rotation as the timing of said pulse would be occuring just post optimal time for creating rotation.

a further strange thought on this matter may be that should there be anything special in the collapsing field of a dc pulse it may only be able to create a force 90 degrees to iether rotation or counter rotation

a machine something akin to the below drawing may be suited to such a force

[iankoglin]

Hi Ian I understand that when the current to a rotor segment is cut, the new momentary field will then reverse. But will the new momentary field be aiding the generator segment or opposing the generator segment? I dont have a scope to find out.

G'day asolid
If you print 2 of UFO's drawings cut the rotor and armature from one (not the brushes)
and superimpose over the other and slowly turn the superimposed one in the direction of rotation you will see where the coils are in relationship with stator magnets when the brush just leaves the comm segment and do not forget that the polarity of the coils are reversed and imagine the reaction between the two you should remember that magnets either permanent or electro will try to align each other.
Remember though that the brush and comm segments really need to be the exact size in relation to the real motor so you might have to pull the motor apart to get some exact measurements and that there usually more than one comm segment touching the brush at one time usually 2 sometimes three

Tell us your results

Kindest Regards

Kogs been there done that

[Ufopolitics]

Hello UFO, et al, i have been following your new direction from the sidelines, because of my workload, and have to say that old, is the new, new. There is so much that has been deliberatly kept from us mere mortals.

Hello Cornboy,

Yes, indeed my friend...indeed.

As ssenergy said "everything happens for a reason", i firmly believe that.

I also agree and believe in that statement...

I have been hesitating winding, my 36 pole rotor, 6 stator all electromagnet motor for a while now.

When you have the time UFO, could you please have a think about the best possible way to move forward whith my scratch motor. i don't mind making a new design rotor, 3 pole or 6 pole, not a problem!.

Best Regards, Friends, Cornboy.

It would not be such a big problem...majority of the work has been done...it is just a matter to "stretch" the distances we had before with N-S Rotors, in order to make a Shorter N-N Rotor Coils, within the N-S Bisectors from Stators...everything would be seen better with a simple module of previous and new type...in CAD...

Regards Friend, and hoping your personal issues will get clear up soon.


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Originally Posted by asollid
Hi Ian I understand that when the current to a rotor segment is cut, the new momentary field will then reverse. But will the new momentary field be aiding the generator segment or opposing the generator segment? I dont have a scope to find out.

Hello Asollid,

If You'd ever build the Asymmetric Three Poles...it would have answered your question.

In the little motor we only fire one Coil at a time right between N-S Stators...while the other two are "On Idle" or Generator stage...however, that motor has MORE Torque than a typical 3 pole Symmetrical...where at least Two Coils are always On...

In my opinion as long as the stator and the rotor are both electromagnets then when the current is simultaneously cut to both the rotor and stator segments it won't matter as both coils will iether stay the same or reverse their polarity. If they both follow the same law then the momentary (collapsing?)field will be assisting rotation as the timing of said pulse would be occuring just post optimal time for creating rotation.

a further strange thought on this matter may be that should there be anything special in the collapsing field of a dc pulse it may only be able to create a force 90 degrees to iether rotation or counter rotation

a machine something akin to the below drawing may be suited to such a force

There are even more advantages on rotating all Norths in rotor than improving and enhancing existing attributes...

We have to also look at the Interval, where Coil is Off, finished with "Motoring" stage and keeps traveling between "the other side" N-S Stator Joint...what happens there?...it is passing right in front of a curved B field, from N to S...So, if we load that Coil when it reaches the brushes elements...and it is passing the South Bisector...by Lenz Law it should become Induced as a South Pole (opposed to the Field that created it)...aided by the reversed polarity at collapse...

What do you guys think may occur there?...I will leave you this homework...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Imperial All North Rotor Coils...

Hello to All,

IMPERIAL ALL NORTH ROTOR COILS

Yes I have not stopped working on this...there are other ways to wind Imperial, however, being conflict on too many wires within one slut when we make coils that comprehend Seven Poles each, like we had before...but, we have to interlace them at junction like the small Five Pole RS Model...So, this has to be tested on real motor.

The drawing below is the one I consider more appropriate for this...comprehending Five Poles per Coil in the Pair.

[IMG][/IMG]

Notice that the Attraction Angles are wider than Repulsion Angles on P1-P15 Dark Blue Pairs (Angles are from Rotor Coil to Stator Bisectors) ...Realize that Repulsion vector forces are favoring rotation as an Impulse to "Infinite"...while Attraction Mode Vectors are traveling towards Lock up when Bisectors meet...then, ALWAYS, Attract side MUST BE wider than Repulse Angles.

One End I will leave up to Open Discussion...Is about P8 and P22 North Coils in Green at Generator stage...elements just entering the Brushes

Please note that both Generator Coils are traveling ...

1-P8 is passing through Magnetic Field generated by N2-S1 Stators...where B Field goes from Right to Left
2-P22 is passing through Magnetic Field produced by N1-S2 Stators...where B Field goes from Left to Right

Note Motor Rotation is CCW.

As per my small RS Model...Output still generates reversed to Input like in older style...so here it should do the same thing...

So the Collapse aids the Generation of a South Magnetic Polarity on those Generator Coils like we had before...but, would the Induction from both Fields from stators... would they also aid to become opposite (South) as per Lenz Law?

The difference here is that before... we had a "mix" of Rotor Coils being one North and other South...Now All are Norths wound...so P22 and P8 should become either FULL South or FULL North projecting towards Stators...

If they become FULL Norths...They will definitively oppose rotation...BUT, if they do become FULL South...we will get a beautiful and sweet acceleration when they are closed or loaded...since they will "intensify/enhance" their magnetic polarity...

In the small RS Machine...the reduction of RPM's under a 12 V Incandescent car Bulb at load...is very small drop..say from 17,000 it drops around 3000 RPM's...but then again...in the Two Stator Machines, Interactions are spread over 180ş...and here are set at 90ş, meaning, closer to each others...


There is only one way to know this...making it happen...


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Hello Cornboy,

Yes, indeed my friend...indeed.


I also agree and believe in that statement...



It would not be such a big problem...majority of the work has been done...it is just a matter to "stretch" the distances we had before with N-S Rotors, in order to make a Shorter N-N Rotor Coils, within the N-S Bisectors from Stators...everything would be seen better with a simple module of previous and new type...in CAD...

Regards Friend, and hoping your personal issues will get clear up soon.


Ufopolitics

Thanks UFO, when you get the time, a cad of previous and present would be excellent.

I believe in the long run, what we are trying to achieve here will be better served with an all electromagnet topology.

My personal life in the next 6 months, will be in mayhem mode, due to my situation.

If need be, i can take a few thousand kilometer drive down south, to Kog's place and deliver the MAG3 to him to finish for us.

Warmest Regards Cornboy.

[AlanHartsell]

In this modern and high technology world which is also called the “information era”. There is no doubt that people now want to own the life that is safe and free and do the thing that they like and want to do. And usually such kind of life is not so easy to own for some people and as they are monitored by some device. If so the power jammer can be your good assistant.

[Midaztouch]

UFO,

Wind 5 then skip 2, repeat until finished for the Imperial?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[marxist]

Advantage of ufo's new wide angle rotor coils

edit:
I deleted the original content of my posting as my own understanding of the effect was wrong.

When trying to understand how such a machine works, one should probably start from the fact, that the entire core of á DC-machine is magnetized by the stator magnets (even with no electrical energy supplied).

I will try to get a better understanding of the effects that manifest, once power is applied to the rotor coils.

[Ufopolitics]

P1-p8

UFO,

Wind 5 then skip 2, repeat until finished for the Imperial?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Hello Midaz,

No skipping at all.

The previous Diagram was showing ONLY the INTERACTING (Firing/Generating) PAIRS at Brushes...which were FOUR.

This Motor have the same number of Pairs...or Twenty Eight (P28)...Total of 56 Coils.

Wind Five Poles CW, then go to next five and wind same way, CW, same amount of turns, finish at matching commutator element at bottom.
Note that the same as before, we are using one slot where both coils pass through where Pair number (P#) is on Diagram.

[IMG][/IMG]

In Diagram above I have set continuously Pairs from P1 to P8, so you see what it should look like in a Quarter of the whole circumference.

I still need to make the CAD for the exact element to hook P1, then start from there on the rest...and will NOT be the same as before.

So, hold on before starting.

This Coils will be shorter, therefore less resistance than previous...so it would need more turns than before.


Regards


Ufopolitics