My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[HuntingRoss]

Brake micro switch

Some Scooters have the brake connected through a micro switch to the controller, in order to turn it off, or decelerate it...if your Scooter have that...then applying brakes won't do it.

Hi UFO. To give an accurate answer to this earlier I referred to the user manual.

However. On taking a closer look at the brake lever there is indeed a micro switch running down to the controller.

That is now disconnected and new brake test conducted. At around 8A the breaker tripped...I tested again and tried to hold it just below 8A. The breaker held BUT I nearly fried the multimeter leads, it was quite an extended run. Still I would expect something designed to test 10A would have leads capable of same.

I presume this means the need for a new controller and circuit breaker...but this doesn't seem to explain the lack of speed and acceleration on the down gradient ?

Thank you for trouble shooting this UFO.

best regards

mark

[DadHav]

Hi UFO. To give an accurate answer to this earlier I referred to the user manual.

However. On taking a closer look at the brake lever there is indeed a micro switch running down to the controller.

That is now disconnected and new brake test conducted. At around 8A the breaker tripped...I tested again and tried to hold it just below 8A. The breaker held BUT I nearly fried the multimeter leads, it was quite an extended run. Still I would expect something designed to test 10A would have leads capable of same.

I presume this means the need for a new controller and circuit breaker...but this doesn't seem to explain the lack of speed and acceleration on the down gradient ?

Thank you for trouble shooting this UFO.

best regards

mark

Hi Mark, I hear Ya on the test leads which reminds me, you should know to check the resistance of your leads and subtract it from your total resistance readings right? On the amp meter situation there's also something you could try. In many of my videos you will see a 1 ohm resistor in a heat sink in series with the load. you can buy these for a few bucks ready to go. I use this as a current shunt that will give you an exact current reading if you connect your meter and have it on the millivolt range. If you want even less resistance in the circuit you can use a strip of old junk steel material and adjust to length to be something convenient like maybe .1 ohm or something. Corrections welcome on those ideas.
J

[Ufopolitics]

Yes, that was what I was referring to...

Hi UFO. To give an accurate answer to this earlier I referred to the user manual.

However. On taking a closer look at the brake lever there is indeed a micro switch running down to the controller.

That is now disconnected and new brake test conducted. At around 8A the breaker tripped...I tested again and tried to hold it just below 8A. The breaker held BUT I nearly fried the multimeter leads, it was quite an extended run. Still I would expect something designed to test 10A would have leads capable of same.

I presume this means the need for a new controller and circuit breaker...but this doesn't seem to explain the lack of speed and acceleration on the down gradient ?

Thank you for trouble shooting this UFO.

best regards

mark

Hello Mark,

Exactly, normally the brake handle micro switch could have two options, just kill the controller output or also to run a "regenerative braking" through a secondary circuit, in either case controller is not sending power to motor, but receiving whatever energy motor sends back. So that switch was fooling your bench tests applying the brakes...

When you mentioned that controller accelerating the asymmetric motor was 'smooth'...this was fine and great but also meant controller was not sending full power from source to motor...and this ends in the lack of speed and acceleration.

You could test controller output without any of the motors connected, and see how many volts it is outputting at full throttle, as well as the starting Volts when throttle is smoothly being depressed. Connect Voltmeter leads to the controller leads to the motor, are two, one is just straight positive, while the other is the Drain from MOSFET's, normally the white or blue are positive...while black is the drain...but your meter will show a minus sign if it is connected in reverse.

Some controllers are designed with a "smart IC" that reduces output power whenever too high reverse flow energy is detected...protecting the device. As well as you could notice a small 'delay' from the time you fully depress throttle to the time it takes to send power to motor.

Before start 'hunting' for another controller I would do some tests...

1-Try draining some unused energy out of your asymmetric motor by connecting the positive output to the positive of batteries and the negative output through a DIODE to the negative of batteries [ Motor Out (-)--l<--(-)Batt. Neg ], diode will prevent from output coils to be energized from batteries, so flow will only run back to batteries. Diode must be rated above the running Voltage/Amperage, and preferably an ultra-fast switching diode like an UF505. Please run also a kill switch to the positive wire from batteries to motor output in case diode goes bad and closes out circuit.

2-You could test with the connections you have mentioned before, by jumping the two rear connectors and feeding motor through the top terminals...the problem here is that you would not have as much power/speed as running it through normal input...but your breaker should not trip since amperage would be reduced.

3- Some Controllers have a small sealed hole with a plug, where you could adjust the acceleration or output of controller with a flat screw like adjustment. Maybe the manual mentions that...but they have "Warnings factory settings!!" do not open or warranty void, bla,bla,bla...

I thought that your OEM Motor when loaded will increase to 8 A...but sometimes readings are not accurate...and could be less in OEM or more in the asymmetric type...

For a last option before getting another controller...If the controller is not completely and heavily sealed, in order that opening it would not have to destroy it...you could open it and look at the type of FET's it have and how many?...then look on line for FET's specifications...since it is a pretty low power wattage controller, factory normally installs just two or three Parallel FET's...and by increasing the FET's Bank...you will be 'upgrading' your controller to deal/handle higher amperage than normally rated by two or three FET's would do.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Learning all the time

Hi John

you should know to check the resistance of your leads and subtract it from your total resistance readings right?

Right. I didn't know that. Which makes me wonder about the figures I've been reading off...Doh...I should stick to my day job.

On the amp meter situation there's also something you could try. In many of my videos you will see a 1 ohm resistor in a heat sink in series with the load. you can buy these for a few bucks ready to go. I use this as a current shunt that will give you an exact current reading if you connect your meter and have it on the millivolt range. If you want even less resistance in the circuit you can use a strip of old junk steel material and adjust to length to be something convenient like maybe .1 ohm or something.

In a very dim and distant past I vaguely remember shunts...I feel the need to read more on the subject...

Thanks for the tips John

mark

[DadHav]

Hi John



Right. I didn't know that. Which makes me wonder about the figures I've been reading off...Doh...I should stick to my day job.



In a very dim and distant past I vaguely remember shunts...I feel the need to read more on the subject...

Thanks for the tips John

mark

Mark, don't beat up on yourself, You're here to learn and teach as well. I can contribute small things that you should know or will find out yourself and I'm here to learn from what you will find out with your testing.
J

[HuntingRoss]

It's making more sense now

Hi UFO. Thank you once again for the in depth and technical response. I feel like such a fraud as this is way past the edge of my experience but I will risk burning my fingers in the name of progress.

One thing occurs to me though. Is there a place for going old school and simply fitting a rheostat type throttle and accept some loss in heat ?

5K Ohm Electric Scooter, Bicycle, and Go Kart Throttles - ElectricScooterParts.com

No electronics to fry in the setup requiring kill switch ?

Comments in red below.

Hello Mark,

Exactly, normally the brake handle micro switch could have two options, just kill the controller output or also to run a "regenerative braking" through a secondary circuit, in either case controller is not sending power to motor, but receiving whatever energy motor sends back. So that switch was fooling your bench tests applying the brakes...This explains why the lever got to a certain position and just stopped the wheel. I thought I was on the edge of the stall point !!

When you mentioned that controller accelerating the asymmetric motor was 'smooth'...this was fine and great but also meant controller was not sending full power from source to motor...and this ends in the lack of speed and acceleration. This is making a lot more sense now.

You could test controller output without any of the motors connected, and see how many volts it is outputting at full throttle, as well as the starting Volts when throttle is smoothly being depressed. Connect Voltmeter leads to the controller leads to the motor, are two, one is just straight positive, while the other is the Drain from MOSFET's, normally the white or blue are positive...while black is the drain...but your meter will show a minus sign if it is connected in reverse.The leads to the motor from the controller are red and black so I'll connect there. I was looking at other controllers this evening and there is a large range. The OEM fitted appears to be the simple 180w model in the controller section of that link above.

Some controllers are designed with a "smart IC" that reduces output power whenever too high reverse flow energy is detected...protecting the device. As well as you could notice a small 'delay' from the time you fully depress throttle to the time it takes to send power to motor.

Before start 'hunting' for another controller I would do some tests...

1-Try draining some unused energy out of your asymmetric motor by connecting the positive output to the positive of batteries and the negative output through a DIODE to the negative of batteries [ Motor Out (-)--l<--(-)Batt. Neg ], diode will prevent from output coils to be energized from batteries, so flow will only run back to batteries. Diode must be rated above the running Voltage/Amperage, and preferably an ultra-fast switching diode like an UF505. Please run also a kill switch to the positive wire from batteries to motor output in case diode goes bad and closes out circuit.

2-You could test with the connections you have mentioned before, by jumping the two rear connectors and feeding motor through the top terminals...the problem here is that you would not have as much power/speed as running it through normal input...but your breaker should not trip since amperage would be reduced.This would be a quick test to do...Should be able to knock that out tomorrow.

3- Some Controllers have a small sealed hole with a plug, where you could adjust the acceleration or output of controller with a flat screw like adjustment. Maybe the manual mentions that...but they have "Warnings factory settings!!" do not open or warranty void, bla,bla,bla... Exactly right...it has a sticker over the rear plate which appears to be fixed with just 4 screws.

I thought that your OEM Motor when loaded will increase to 8 A...but sometimes readings are not accurate...and could be less in OEM or more in the asymmetric type...Also correct...One of my bench tests took the OEM above 8A very easily as it neared stall speed...

For a last option before getting another controller...If the controller is not completely and heavily sealed, in order that opening it would not have to destroy it...you could open it and look at the type of FET's it have and how many?...then look on line for FET's specifications...since it is a pretty low power wattage controller, factory normally installs just two or three Parallel FET's...and by increasing the FET's Bank...you will be 'upgrading' your controller to deal/handle higher amperage than normally rated by two or three FET's would do.This does sound a little past my skills but taking a look inside is worth it and only voids the warranty.

Regards


Ufopolitics

[DadHav]

Hi UFO. Thank you once again for the in depth and technical response. I feel like such a fraud as this is way past the edge of my experience but I will risk burning my fingers in the name of progress.

One thing occurs to me though. Is there a place for going old school and simply fitting a rheostat type throttle and accept some loss in heat ?

5K Ohm Electric Scooter, Bicycle, and Go Kart Throttles - ElectricScooterParts.com

No electronics to fry in the setup requiring kill switch ?

Comments in red below.

Hello Mark, I'm sure UFO will give you the info on the link, but what you're seeing at say 5K ohms is not a rheostat it's more than likely the control pot to operate the speed control. I don't always read things real close but maybe you need to think about something. If adapting your motor to the scooter for testing has become to complicated to be practical you might want to go back to square one and try testing to see if the modified motor will actually perform better than an OEM. If you have a motor that is wound correctly and the brushes all check to be energizing the coils correctly you can still test two motors without the scooter No? See what UFO says.
J
PS. There's something I like to do sometimes. After I'm sure my brushes are run-in and seated I set my power supply to an appropriately low current level, something like maybe only 200 ma. A small battery might also work. I connect one commutator to the power supply and rotate the armature to feel the energy of the coils reacting with the magnets. Sometimes I put a scope across the the motor to see how much noise or interruptions there is as the armature is turned. This is just a little different than using a continuity checker but gives you a chance to find weak or unenergized fields.
Just a few suggestions Mark, hang in there.

[HuntingRoss]

If adapting your motor to the scooter for testing has become to complicated to be practical you might want to go back to square one and try testing to see if the modified motor will actually perform better than an OEM.

I absolutely agree John. I'm looking for the easiest method to test and prove one against the other. The prony test may be the simplest way to do this.

This is a method for me to understand a science I have never studied and so I can apply it to something I actually need.

The thing I find interesting about this asymm motor is it operates as a motor/generator AND if I understand my results correctly...

PSU Volts no load = 10.32v.

Voltage between V2 in (-ve) bottom comm and V2 out (+ve) top comm = -7.40v.

Voltage between V1 in top comm and V2 out top comm = 17.40v.

Motor speed = 2186 rpm.

Under this test one can either take out 7.40v or 17.40v if desired AND take the torque from the shaft.

A step up transformer.

That has to be pretty cool all in one package.

happy hunting

mark

[DadHav]

Fan?

I absolutely agree John. I'm looking for the easiest method to test and prove one against the other. The prony test may be the simplest way to do this.

This is a method for me to understand a science I have never studied and so I can apply it to something I actually need.

The thing I find interesting about this asymm motor is it operates as a motor/generator AND if I understand my results correctly...



A step up transformer.

That has to be pretty cool all in one package.

happy hunting

mark

Mark, if nothing else you can go to a junkyard and find a small plastic radiator fan of some kind. Jury rig an adapter to get it on the shafts and you're set to go. Your modified motor should draw less current than the OEM when running at the same RPM or it won't likely be an advantage, conversely if you have both motors drawing the same current you would hope to have a higher RPM on your modification. The higher speed would definitely indicate an ability to handle more load for the same watts as the OEM. Anyway just another suggestion. Whoa, on your step up transformer comment. You'll have to discuss that with UFO and the other members. My explanation would take way to long to lay down at this time and I would probably get in trouble again. I will say this: Keep in mind the ultimate goal. Any potential above the input, no matter how you obtain it, whether it be as radiant, generated, from the vacuum, coupled between input and output coils, defying Lenz or any other method has to assist in bringing down the current for the system to run at an energy savings level. To obtain this I believe the output when used should probably have to operate without drawing extra current or slowing the motor down. I don't know if I stayed out of trouble with that or if my thoughts are correct but it's what I would like to see. I have not seen it myself with a brushed motor.
John

[HuntingRoss]

No claims of efficiency

Whoa, on your step up transformer comment. You'll have to discuss that with UFO and the other members. My explanation would take way to long to lay down at this time and I would probably get in trouble again. I will say this: Keep in mind the ultimate goal. Any potential above the input, no matter how you obtain it, whether it be as radiant, generated, from the vacuum, coupled between input and output coils, defying Lenz or any other method has to assist in bringing down the current for the system to run at an energy savings level. To obtain this I believe the output when used should probably have to operate without drawing extra current or slowing the motor down. I don't know if I stayed out of trouble with that or if my thoughts are correct but it's what I would like to see. I have not seen it myself with a brushed motor.
John

Hi John

It's the only way I could describe stepping up 10v to 17v. I have no idea whether it did it efficiently or not. With my limited understanding (and a little knowledge IS supposed to be dangerous...or so THEY say) connecting one brushed group through the other brushed group as if they are all connected on the shaft struck me to be like center tapping a coil...it certainly drove the OEM motor very well.

Anyhoo, I'll keep my head down and dodge the bullets.

And I do appreciate the many tips to test the two motors together...I have an old aluminum fan knocking around somewhere which should put some nice drag on the shafts.

mischievously hunting

mark

[DadHav]

Hi John

It's the only way I could describe stepping up 10v to 17v. I have no idea whether it did it efficiently or not. With my limited understanding (and a little knowledge IS supposed to be dangerous...or so THEY say) connecting one brushed group through the other brushed group as if they are all connected on the shaft struck me to be like center tapping a coil...it certainly drove the OEM motor very well.

Anyhoo, I'll keep my head down and dodge the bullets.

And I do appreciate the many tips to test the two motors together...I have an old aluminum fan knocking around somewhere which should put some nice drag on the shafts.

mischievously hunting

mark

Hi Mark a fan blade will alway give you the same dependable amount of resistance between both test subjects and that's a good inexpensive device in my opinion. On the transformer sinopsis. Without a designated coil or set of coils separate of the two you call center tapped I'm not so sure. Think of it this way. You have one coil that already has the run voltage across it and another coil being energized from the magnets that is in series, so you're adding the generated voltage to the battery voltage which is already there. When you add a load across the both you are probably in a situation where part of the load is on the battery and the other part on the generator coil. Dont forget the generator coil is on the same set of laminations so it must be receiving some sort of transformer effect, as a matter of fact each of the coils must receive something from the other as fields collapse or what ever. that's why this motor is different than running a separate generator driven from the shaft of the motor. I'm sure you know when you connect your motor and generator coils in series and run them as a motor, things change. You will lose RPM's but your motor should run strong with low current draw. It's almost like starting off in low gear with all legs of the stator in motor mode. To bad you can't rig a switch to change options while driving right? My opinion only. I've presented a few videos where you can see the effects i mentioned on a scope but it is with brushless motors and really dramatic. Good luck Mark, I'm sure UFO will help you get going.
John

[Ufopolitics]

Repulse to more Attract...

Hi UFO. Thank you once again for the in depth and technical response. I feel like such a fraud as this is way past the edge of my experience but I will risk burning my fingers in the name of progress.

One thing occurs to me though. Is there a place for going old school and simply fitting a rheostat type throttle and accept some loss in heat ?

5K Ohm Electric Scooter, Bicycle, and Go Kart Throttles - ElectricScooterParts.com

No electronics to fry in the setup requiring kill switch ?

Comments in red below.

Hey Mark,

Was thinking about just timing adjustment could be "too much towards repulse" rather than 50/50...or more towards attract...and I know you have very clear the concepts of Bisectors and the right firing positioning.

But what happens is as follows...if you are set too close to North Stator Bisector, then your amp draw will increase top max...and the further you fire your groups more towards an attraction (or closer to South Stator)...the lower your amp draw...and at heavy loads am saying here.

So, give it a try to play with the proper settings...


Regards friend


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

@UFO

Was thinking about just timing adjustment could be "too much towards repulse" rather than 50/50...or more towards attract...and I know you have very clear the concepts of Bisectors and the right firing positioning.

But what happens is as follows...if you are set too close to North Stator Bisector, then your amp draw will increase top max...and the further you fire your groups more towards an attraction (or closer to South Stator)...the lower your amp draw...and at heavy loads am saying here.



Ufopolitics

Ufo

A few weeks ago I asked this:

Setting the "Timing" of coil one(C1) of group one(G1) at TDC of the bi-sector of the magnetic or as close as possible after the mag bi-sector. Plus, winding one more pole.

Will this increase the Amps?
If so, Is the extra torque worth the extra amps?
Do the RPMs increase?

To me this seems as though this is the ideal setting. If not, why?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Ufopolitics]

All North Alignment...

@UFO

A few weeks ago I asked this:

Setting the "Timing" of coil one(C1) of group one(G1) at TDC of the bi-sector of the magnetic or as close as possible after the mag bi-sector. Plus, winding one more pole.

Will this increase the Amps?
If so, Is the extra torque worth the extra amps?
Do the RPMs increase?

To me this seems as though this is the ideal setting. If not, why?

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

Hello Midaz,

Ok, first, We do NOT align at TDC (Top Dead Center) of the two Bisectors (Rotor and Stator)...We align CLOSE to the Stator Bisector towards the rotation sense we desire, say 10º to 20º based on Coil 1...Now, Coil 1 (1) is given as an "Accurate Mathematical Positioning" in order to have a close/clearer view when we are setting timing...BUT, in reality it is NOT just based on Coil One (1)...take a look below:

[IMG][/IMG]

Using the 12 Pole Motor as Mark (Hunting Ross) have...as this will serve for his learning...I have set the point in time where two Groups are being fired, in this case G1-G2.

I have set NSB (North Stator Bisector) as well as SSB (South Stator Bisector).

So here is what happens in reality...

When We have a Group of Overlapped Coils, the CENTER COIL (in this case Coil Two (2)) is where the MAX DENSITY concentrates...Now, here We have Two Groups being fired, so a "Virtual Center" is originated right between the Geometrical Center that those Two Groups configure as shown above.

If We look at the Angles in this Interaction, between Both Stators Bisectors and the MAX DENSITY SPHERE (Yes it is a 3D Sphere Volume, and We can not see it but we can "feel it"... if we get two Concave and Convex same polarity magnets and try to roll them while getting them closer...and following rotation along curves...we feel how "ball moves" in an "in between" fashion between the two virtual centers or bisectors)

Now, as Rotation keeps going We have just ONE GROUP being fired:

[IMG][/IMG]

We notice the Max Density Sphere is about the same place...except this time is right on center of BG1(2) (Bisector Group 1, Coil 2)

And...if We move the Brushes a bit towards rotation...then we have:

[IMG][/IMG]

In this case -for clarity- We are just firing One Group (G1), and We notice the Sphere is at the center between both Stators Bisectors (N-S)...and this is where a 50/50 Setting is, where Repulse and Attract Forces are of equal distances, equal strength...on previous posts , when doing N-S Pairs, I have written a setting in a "NEUTRAL ZONE"...and this is the same thing, but applying to All North.

Understanding this, then I will answer your question(s).

Will this increase the Amps?

Yes, it will increase Amp Draw if we align AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE based on REPULSION MODE. The Motor would be very strong, and speed over the limits as well...but sacrifice is that we use a lot of energy to achieve this.

So, aligning to displace that Max Density Sphere more towards the South Stator (Attract Mode), we will reduce Amp Draw...but consequently, also reduce Speed and Torque...Then We will have to look for that "Sweet Spot" in between "Both Worlds" that fulfills our demand based on our application(s).

And every case is different on applications scenarios, for example in Hunting Ross case...when his Daughter adds her weight, standing on top of scooter, plus the steady friction between tires and road, adds too much load/amp draw... causing to open the breaker because of Amps increase beyond spec's. I am pretty sure this issue would be resolved by adjusting brushes towards a more "relaxed" attract mode and less Repulse mode.

When We were testing the Imperial on N-S Pairs, there were some replications here (Hitby13KW) that were running "too weak and slower", and I found out the factory Stators settings on the housing were NOT as I have displayed on my Diagrams as mine came in from factory...but "rotated" about 90º, and, if We do not check/define WHERE are our North-South Stators are positioned, related to Brush positioning...then we could be setting Motor on Attract Mode, BUT in a HIGHER PERCENTAGE than Repulse...this delivers a too weak Motor...but, happily very low amp draw...

Conclusion...the "Ideal Setting" is different for every model, based on its structure, application, etc...We MUST find that sweet spot/ideal setting...in our Timing, where it will fits our application.

Midaz: I did not understand the underlined part below:

Plus, winding one more pole.

Winding One more Pole on top of the designated per Group?

Anyways, a couple more things...

1- There are also other opposite (South) magnetic fields generating simultaneously at 180º apart per each Group being fired North...and being "assisted" by the naturally reversed Coils at Output, exactly 180º apart...I did not display this part for sake of clarity and simplicity... but this is one of the reasons why our Asymmetric Machines -basically the All North- are so powerful and fast at the same time.

2- The "Sphere" of Maximum Density is NOT all of the Magnetic Field definition in Space...the Magnetic Field Spectrum propagates beyond this...surrounding the first Coil (1) and ending also beyond and around the Third Coil (3)...The Sphere as Magnetic Fields are "flexible/elastic"...and we can compress its shape/volume making it look like an Elliptical Geometry in 3D...


Best Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Further field test pending

Hi UFO.

Thanks for the update and graphics in response to Midaz's question.

I have 3 more motors on order. One is a 450w geared motor which I'm going to try and drive and old petrol grass kart...the other two are similar baby motors to the scooter.

The two baby motors are going to be for quick tests to see which setups work best and finally to try and maximise copper density and resistance. I will also try and match or better the OEM resistance this time.

The field test this weekend will be on the scooter with 'beast' re-installed BUT with all OEM electronics bypassed. It is now wired through a switch to a power relay straight to the motor...ON/OFF. Circuit protection is a 20A fuse which can be swapped out to find the maximum draw if required. The test pilot will have to sit the first run on the side lines as I make sure it is safe enough for her to try.

This will demonstrate immediately if the controller is the issue as it will either put all the power down the gradient or not.

I have found a UK website that sells most scooter parts I need including a 500w controller for only £15...much better than the US mail order option and waiting...I hate waiting.

Updates to follow.

mark