Open discussion for projects on this forum.

[genessc]

Yeap, Morins "stuff" is all in Morins head. When he gets to DETAILS he'll sort his own ignorance.

That doesn't really explain the oddity of the inversion of current draw via shorting on a transformer wired up backwards to that particular type of motor tho eh?

The 50watt trafo waveform had some curvature to the waveform but on the 800watt trafo that output waveform was nearly a perfect triangle wave.

To be sure I haven't done any more with it than I'd shared in the last video. It charges up capacities... probably a pulser could be used to discharge those charged capacities thru another transformer to produce Current pulses maybe that would be sent to recharge the source battery driving the DC motor thats turning the drain pump or something.

There was never a doubt in my mind that Morins methods were questionable. I've dealt with his Type before and they will not stick to a single context, they produce one, then when called out on that one they find a more expensive and harder to locate set of components (ala don smith and metglas) and spin that for a while... and then on to the next ...

It is nice seeing others are aware of it too tho... Quickest way to know is to do.

I'll go check that article out. Thanks for that!

Take care,
Gene

It appears I am not the only one that sees serious problems with the claims made by Gerard Morin. Here is an article written by a respected researcher who also sees problems with Gerard's claims.


Gerard Morin's Free Energy Delusion - Revolution-Green

Respectfully,
Carroll

[citfta]

Hello again Gene,


Well I got the pump motor mounted and connected to a 12 volt motor. I do not have a way yet to accurately measure the rpm but I still wanted to do some quick tests.

First some data to consider. The impedance of the pump motor winding is 126.6 mh. The transformer can be wired for 240 or 480 volts. The secondary is only 24 volts with no center tap.

240 v primary impedance 1.293 H with 24 volt winding open
240 v primary impedance 35.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
480 v primary impedance 4.86 H with 24 volt winding open
480 v primary impedance 142.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
24 v secondary impedance 15.1 mh with 240 volt winding open
24 v secondary impedance .42 mh with 240 volt winding shorted.

Now to the testing: If I connect the 240 volt winding to the pump motor (generator) and with the motor being driven I can short out the 240 volt side (the side connected to the generator and I really can't tell it makes any difference. However if I short out the secondary (the 24 volt side) it does slow the motor down a little bit and increases the current draw slightly. I only have an analogue meter on my power supply but it looks like the current goes up from about 4 amps to maybe 4.25 amps. A barely noticeable change.

If I connect the 480 volt winding to the generator I get basically the same thing. I then connected the 24 volt winding to the generator and with it connected this way I don't see or hear any change whether the input or output is shorted or not. I can light a 7.5 watt 120 volt bulb to about half brightness with it connected to the 240 volt side. The voltage getting to the bulb is only about 78 volts so I know it is putting out a small amount of real power. I can also use a bridge and charge some caps but they wanted to go higher than they were rated so I went back to just measuring the AC power going to the bulb as a reference.

I think the reason I may not be getting the results you are getting is because the motor is pretty worn and it may be that under load the rotor is rubbing the stator and causing some problems. I need to order a new one or try to find one not as worn as this one. The other one I have is even worse. I can feel it rubbing the stator all the time.

It is interesting that it doesn't seem to make any difference whether the output is shorted or open when connected with the 24 volt side going to the motor/generator.

Later,
Carroll

[shylo]

Thanks for the reply Gene, I do read on that all about circuits, but it's hard to grasp the concepts through reading. I do better with hands on.
Inductance to me is sort of like capacity?
Impeadence is like resistance?
What I meant by adding a load behind was trying different loads.
Sorry that may not be clear, the 40watt killed the motor, the 100watt didn't light but it increased the rpm at the same time reducing input??
Would the 40 with say another 40 and a 20 in series produce the same results as just the 100?
The math says yes right?
Sorry not trying to waste anybodies time ,just when I see stuff like that it makes me want to try all kinds of different things.
artv

[thaelin]

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

[erfinder]

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

Early in my experimenting I stumbled onto the same phenomena. Specifically, I realized that EMF of proper phase and polarity can be projected at one another along a common wave guide, when the waves collide they "can" be made to add, resulting in a new wave which exists only for the period during which these two waves are transitioning through one another. The amplitude of the new "temporary" wave is equal to the sum of the two waves. One of the more interesting things I noted is that collision doesn't result in the destruction of the waves themselves, like waves on water which are travelling at different speeds, the two waves move through one another, the two behaving as if they are totally unaware of the existence of the other except at the instance when the two pass through each other.

To generate these waves, I find it advantageous in setting up an imbalance within the circuit impedance, a concept I call impedance mismatching. A wave sent out by the transmitter encounters an abrupt change in system impedance, this results in the transmitted wave being partially or completely reflected back in the direction of the transmitter, as the reflected wave is returning, the transmitter fires off another wave which meets with the returning wave. At the instant of perfect alignment of the two colliding waves, one experiences an increase in amplitude.

All that to say this, I know where you are coming from and hope that you continue your investigations in this direction!


Regards

[genessc]

Kool, thanks for giving it a go. The 24v side on your trafo is a little low by about half the inductance needed for the effect to be noted, tho also your drain pump you noted was 124mH or so so I would have thought that might be close still.

The ratio seems to be a 5:1 ratio, with the drain pump being the 5 for L and the trafo being the 1 for L.

In my case its 151mH for the drain pump and ~30mH for both the 24v secondary on the 50va trafo and ~30mH for 3 x 12v windings all in series on the 800va trafo. The resistance must be pretty low given that these are the LV sides windings...

You might see if you can add more inductance in series to the 24v side of the trafo where it connects to the drain pump to try and get that up to ~30mH or so to see if that makes the effect more pronounced then when you short the secondary...

This config might be used for charging caps I guess... it would need to be compared against bedinis SS SG tho since that charges caps the best I've seen... so far.

Take it easy,
Gene

Hello again Gene,


Well I got the pump motor mounted and connected to a 12 volt motor. I do not have a way yet to accurately measure the rpm but I still wanted to do some quick tests.

First some data to consider. The impedance of the pump motor winding is 126.6 mh. The transformer can be wired for 240 or 480 volts. The secondary is only 24 volts with no center tap.

240 v primary impedance 1.293 H with 24 volt winding open
240 v primary impedance 35.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
480 v primary impedance 4.86 H with 24 volt winding open
480 v primary impedance 142.6 mh with 24 volt winding shorted
24 v secondary impedance 15.1 mh with 240 volt winding open
24 v secondary impedance .42 mh with 240 volt winding shorted.

Now to the testing: If I connect the 240 volt winding to the pump motor (generator) and with the motor being driven I can short out the 240 volt side (the side connected to the generator and I really can't tell it makes any difference. However if I short out the secondary (the 24 volt side) it does slow the motor down a little bit and increases the current draw slightly. I only have an analogue meter on my power supply but it looks like the current goes up from about 4 amps to maybe 4.25 amps. A barely noticeable change.

If I connect the 480 volt winding to the generator I get basically the same thing. I then connected the 24 volt winding to the generator and with it connected this way I don't see or hear any change whether the input or output is shorted or not. I can light a 7.5 watt 120 volt bulb to about half brightness with it connected to the 240 volt side. The voltage getting to the bulb is only about 78 volts so I know it is putting out a small amount of real power. I can also use a bridge and charge some caps but they wanted to go higher than they were rated so I went back to just measuring the AC power going to the bulb as a reference.

I think the reason I may not be getting the results you are getting is because the motor is pretty worn and it may be that under load the rotor is rubbing the stator and causing some problems. I need to order a new one or try to find one not as worn as this one. The other one I have is even worse. I can feel it rubbing the stator all the time.

It is interesting that it doesn't seem to make any difference whether the output is shorted or open when connected with the 24 volt side going to the motor/generator.

Later,
Carroll

[genessc]

Howdy Artv,

cool, yeah I understand, I do better with something to get my hands on too.

Inductance might be considered the inverse of capacity. The two are directly related and always exist on whatever component there is. Thus all electric components carry the triplet of Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance in some measure/combination.

Both inductance and capacitance need to be measured "at frequency" so that they can be determined as its a function of the Frequency which determines how the things being measured return their results.

If the Frequency of the thing doing the measuring changes, So does the measured values of the SAME thing under test.

Thats why I suggest an LCR meter that does its measures on at least 2 frequencies so one can get an idea of how the frequency affects the Traits of the component being measured.

Impedance is Resistance At Frequency. Resistance is Not a set value when the power applied is not constantly applied DC. Resistance varies with the frequencies applied to whatever component. So with pulsed DC or AC or any of the range of waveforms that are not constant, the actual response from the components varies.

Thats a good question on the bulbs, I don't think it would be the same thing because each lamps filament has the same characteristics as the other filament, so it would not be accounting for the necessary voltage to go thru the lamps with 3 lamps (40/40/20) all in series eh? I'd need 3 x the volts rated on one of the lamps to get them to light at all in series, so some 360vac. If I put them all in parallel it might be closer to the 100watt single bulb, but I would most likely see an imbalanced flow of energy with most going to the pair of 40watt bulbs and a lesser part going thru the 20watt bulb. In theory that amount of Current being allowed to flow *should* produce the same effect as a single 100watt lamp. I'm not sure what doing this would prove tho, do you have a reason for why you'd test the circuit in this manner?

All good man, you seem intent on wanting to learn so thats cool by me. If I can help you out, I'll do so.

Take care,
Gene

Thanks for the reply Gene, I do read on that all about circuits, but it's hard to grasp the concepts through reading. I do better with hands on.
Inductance to me is sort of like capacity?
Impeadence is like resistance?
What I meant by adding a load behind was trying different loads.
Sorry that may not be clear, the 40watt killed the motor, the 100watt didn't light but it increased the rpm at the same time reducing input??
Would the 40 with say another 40 and a 20 in series produce the same results as just the 100?
The math says yes right?
Sorry not trying to waste anybodies time ,just when I see stuff like that it makes me want to try all kinds of different things.
artv

[genessc]

Ah synchronicity. I just read some comment by harvey norris about how parallel flows on parallel strands end up seeing a zero force between each strand due the energy in motion. The comment referenced the guy that wrote the below book.

Newtonian Electrodynamics
Graneau, Peter; Graneau, Neal

I went looking for a used copy of that book, and found a single version of it for about 165bux... I'm awaiting delivery of it. It should be a good read, here was the description for it.

"Book Description: Dust jacket now contained in mylar cover. Contents include: Evolution of Newtonian Electrodynamics, Longitudinal Ampere Forces, Theoretical Developments, Nature of Current Elements, The Railgun, Arc Explosions.; 8vo "

The main thing I'm curious about is the longitudinal ampere forces...

Tesla was also noted to say you could have many currents on a single conductor...

Have you looked up heterodyning at all? the mixing of two frequencies to produce a 3rd and 4th... which if done just so produces the 3rd as a reinforcement of one of the primary frequencies? for example if you wanted to produce a 60hz frequency from a pair of oscillators, one could be set to run at 60hz, the other at 120hz... then given how heterodyning works, when those two freqs mix they produce the Added and Subtracted sums as additional beat frequencies... thus the added frequency would be 180hz... and the subtracted frequency would again be 60hz... reinforcing one of the base beat freqs. This idea tho considers two sources mixed after the signals are produced... not really a single conductor coil being used for both to be driven on that one strand.

You might look into radio a bit for the "mixing" aspect of wavelengths.

Hopefully thats helpful.
Gene

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

[citfta]

Hello thaelin,

Thanks for your comments. I will try to add to what has already been stated by erfinder and Gene. Both of them are correct in what they are saying I am only going to try and add some more to their comments.

First I want to suggest that if you really want to learn about electronics and in particular radio theory you need to get a copy of the ARRL amateur radio operators handbook. If you will take the time to study and learn from that book you will at least have a grasp of the basics of electronics. You will also learn the correct meaning of terms like inductance and impedance. Then you will be able to communicate effectively with others that also have taken the time to learn proper theory and terminology. I am not suggesting that the theory you will learn is complete by any means but at least it will give you a good starting point.

The reason I am stressing this so much is because there are so many on this forum that will believe anything they see because they don't know what they should be seeing or how to interpret what they do see. Let me give you a simplified example. You want to go out and discover some new territory that has never been seen before. Now if you went out without any maps at all how would you know if you were in new territory? Now if you had a good set of maps you could easily recognize when you were no longer in old territory. Think of the basics of electronics as your maps of established territory. Learning the basics helps you to see when something unusual is actually happening. And the basics also help you to see when something that happens is perfectly normal and not unusual at all.

OK, enough preaching now to your questions. Yes you certainly can have more than one signal on a wire. Your cable company does it all the time. By sending signals that are of a different frequency you can send several signals all at once. You just need something on the other end to separate them out again and that is what your cable box does.

What erfinder is referring to is known in the radio world as SWR or standing wave ratio. If there is an impedance mismatch between the transmitter and the feed line or the feed line and the antenna then part of the signal is reflected back to the transmitter. In the radio world this is a bad thing because the reflected power can damage the transmitter output device especially if it is solid state like a transistor. In the old days when CB was really popular the CBers discovered they could adjust the length of the coax to get the signals to reinforce and thus fool the SWR meter into thinking the reflected signal was actually the signal going out. This didn't really help their transmitted signal but it did make the transmitter output happy. The correct way to solve the problem is to make sure the antenna impedance is correct so all the power actually goes into the antenna and thus gives you a better signal out.

Now what erfinder is doing is actually close but not the same. He wants the reflected power and has found a way to use it to do some pretty interesting things in the way of generating power from some coils. You need to look for his Youtube videos and you can learn from a serious researcher.

What Gene has posted about heterodyning is also correct. This is something else you can learn a lot about in the ARRL handbook. This is a common method used by all radio and television receivers to help them to separate the signals of one channel from all the rest. I don't really have time right now to explain how all that works but the idea is very sound and has been used since the early days of radio. If you get into serious study and have questions then just ask and I will try to answer as best I can or at least point you in a direction to help you.

Could you explain what you mean by your statement that the load will see a 60 hz source even if it in the beginning was not. I am not understanding what you mean by that.

Mostly aimed at Citfta but anyone who would like to comment. I have been looking into many things along the way. What has gleaned my attention is the ability of two signals to share the same transport. When thoes two signals hit each other, they add but go on. On the whole, the "transport" or wire will see a pulse of the addition. I have proved this with two signal gens and a scope.
If you have these two signals timed to say 60 hz then a load will see the signal as a 60 cycle source. Then a load will see a 60hz source even if it in the beginning was not. Might be noisy but still 60 hz.

Later,
Carroll

trying to find out if my line of thinking is true. Comments?

[gyula]

Hi Folks,

Here is an animation on waves "meeting" with each other, a good illustration for what erfinder mentioned as colliding waves and the amplitude increase. There is more to it as usual, you can see further demos on waves with reflections etc in this link:

Travelling Waves I - A multimedia presentation from Physclips

Gyula

[citfta]

Thank you gyula for the excellent link. Very informative.

Carroll

[citfta]

Hi guys,

I have just realized I made a mistake with the information I posted in post #382. I was posting about the value of the windings in the pump motor and the windings of the transformer I was using. I gave those values as impedance. That is NOT correct. Those values are actually the inductance values of the windings.

As gene has pointed out the impedance value changes as the frequency changes. However the inductance value does not change. Sorry for the confusion. I just wasn't paying attention to what I posted.

A couple of quick lessons for those of you trying to understand some of this electronic stuff. As the frequency goes up the impedance goes up for an inductor. Conversely as the frequency goes down the impedance goes up for a capacitor. The actual impedance value will depend on the inductance and the frequency or the capacitance and frequency. And as gene also pointed out all devices have some of each although we usually ignore very small capacitance values or very small inductance values.

If you are not overloaded yet here is one more little tidbit. Just remember the saying "Eli the Ice man" ELI meaning voltage leads current in an inductor. And ICE meaning current leads voltage in a capacitor. This makes sense if you remember in electronics E stands for voltage and I stands for current. Also C stands for a capacitor and L stands for an inductor.

Later,
Carroll

[OrionLightShip]

The main thing I'm curious about is the longitudinal ampere forces...

Gene

I am also interested in this as it relates to the Tesla impulse. Here is a preview of what you have coming saying that the ampere force law experiment is detailed in that book.... hope you share, the book price on Amazon just now was almost four hundred.

The following is quoted from a pdf that I have....

"The Ampère force law confirms a number of important
experimental facts. Amongst them is the behavior of the
electro-dynamic impulse pendulum. Pappas3 of the
University of Athens was the first to discover that the performance
of the impulse pendulum could not be explained
without Ampère’s force law which invalidates the Lorentz
law and casts doubt over the entire edifice of the Maxwell-
Einstein relativistic electromagnetism. This experiment is
explained at length in Newtonian Electrodynamics,1 plus other
tests which specifically demonstrate the longitudinal force
component which acts in the direction of current in a conductor.
This component is entirely lacking in the Lorentz
force which is always completely perpendicular to the direction
of electric current. This longitudinal force component
creates tension in conductors, which is often observed qualitatively
in the behavior of exploding wires and more quantitatively
in specifically constructed experiments. Most significantly,
the Newtonian electrodynamics developed by Ampère, Neumann, Kirchoff and others simply disappeared from textbooks at the beginning of the 20th century. This isa serious scientific crisis which will hopefully inspire adventurous physicists to face the issue and return electromagnetic
theory and its wider physical implications to their empirical
early 19th century integrity."

[citfta]

Hello again Gene,

I have been playing around again with the pump motor. I took the windings and laminations off the rotor assembly. Then I tried passing a magnet past the end of the laminations. I wanted to see if I could get some power with the magnet going by the end of the laminations instead of rotating inside the laminations. That does work.

I got the idea from watching a video that Dave posted in the Basic Free Energy Machine thread. The video showed a man with a set up of a wheel and magnets and a coil arrangement like the Leedskelin PMH. As the magnet passed between the ends of the PMH type coil lamination it generated power and if loaded it caused the wheel to speed up. I got to wondering if the fact the coils were not at the end might have something to do with the speeding up of the wheel. He also showed the current going to the motor went down as the wheel sped up.

The only thing I have right at the moment to test with is my old Bedini SSG which let me hold the pump motor coil and laminations close to it and see what I got. Using a bridge rectifier on the output I was able to charge a cap to 20 volts or so. And of course the SSG was only turning about 150 rpm and the magnets are spaced apart too. As far as I could tell the wheel did not slow down any when I was charging the cap or when I shorted out the pump motor.

I have my magnets on the SSG mounted crosswise to the edge of the wheel. When holding the pump motor windings next to the wheel I had the pump motor held crosswise also so that the longest part of the laminations matched the longest dimension of the magnets. Since the SSG has all magnets facing north out you get an interesting waveform on the scope. As the magnet approaches one side of the laminations you get a small negative pulse. As the magnet gets centered over the laminations you get a strong positive pulse. And then again as the magnet is leaving and going past the other side of the laminations you get a small negative pulse.

What I want to do now is make a rotor with some alternating magnets and mount the coil close by and turn the rotor at a higher speed and see if I get the same effect I was getting when shorting out the transformer. I am going to have to make a trip to town I think to get some materials to make a good rotor so I can test this idea.

My thinking is if this works then you could go around to some appliance repair places and maybe get them to give you a bunch of bad pumps. From the two I have it seems the bearings wear out before anything else goes bad. Since I am not using the bearings I wouldn't care if the rotor and bearings were bad. This would eliminate about half the expense of building a generator as the wire for the coils is a big part of the expense. After that you only have the expense of the building the rotor and the expense of the magnets for the rotor. Another advantage would be all your coils would be the same and fairly high precision also.

If you get a chance to check out this idea let me know what you think.

Later,
Carroll

[voltan]

hi all.this is my current project.it's the transmitter circuit for a diy metal detector.built around 1 of vlad utkins concepts,i have managed to integrate a joule thief,an astable multivibrator and vlad's dual polarity charge pump scheme.it sends short alternating pulses of 40v or more through the search coil,at a rate of about 10 clicks/second.i'm still doing r and d on search coil options and the receiving side of it,with a fair way to go.happy to provide more details if anyone's interested.
also i have just acquired a dual voice coil speaker to try joule thief circuits on.there is some suggestion that steven marks got inspiration for the tpu from playing with dual signal injection into 1 of these things and analyzing waveforms,or something like that.just wondering if anyone has tried j.t circuits with these.
cheers.